If we are referring to acoustic bass heard in live settings, jazz or classical the bass is not tight. It is full bodied,richly textured and has a natural bloom to the sound. Some components introduce a tightness that actually does not exist when these instruments are heard live. I see no advantage to an over damped bass character if it deviates from reality. Go and listen to a live bassist perform and judge for your self.Electronica and synthesizer are a different matter. I am referring to un amplified acoustic double bass sound.
Charles, |
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You're looking for music reproduced naturally.
1) One of current Lampizator DACs (level 7 with direct coupled DHTtube is their top model). A friend has their level 5 and it's excellent.
2) Concert Fidelity DAC, ( the latest has a battery powered chip version).I heard the prior model and it's excellent.
3) Yamamoto YDA-01 DAC and replace the output coupling capacitor with Duelund CAST. What I use and it's organic bliss.
I'm certain there are other very good options, but I can vouch for these three.
Charles, |
If tubes are implemented correctly by a talented designer [Lampizator for example] they can provide fantastic natural sound. I agree with Steve that merely inserting tubes into a DAC won`t automatically yield good results, it isn`t that simple. Solid state analog circuits can sound just as superb with proper execution. I agree with Jwm and Ctsooner. The sound of live instruments have a degree of fullness,tonal warmth and harmonic richness that the "accurate" type components fail to preserve and thus sound relatively bleached and artificial. It`s all a matter of what type of sound a listener desires. I would personally choose natural over hifi accurate. There are DAC choices that satisfy one or the other groups.I believe that simple discrete analog circuits along with a high quality robust power supply have a significant impact on sound quality.
Charles, |
Matt,
That is a nice list of DAC contenders you have. I wish you could hear a Lampizator DAC levels 5 thur 7. I think you would like them quite a lot.
Steve,
I agree that there is no perfect tube. I will add that there is no perfect transistor either.
Charles, |
Bill,
I raised that issue earlier in this thread as well, the notion of extraordinarily long break in is puzzling. What choice of a part, material, construction techniques etc is responsible for this? I accept the general premise of necessary break in. It would seem that transformers, capacitors, wiring and other parts should be reasonably seasoned after 200-300 hours (that's quite a long period). Could someone explain the underlying reason for extreme break in periods? What in the world is taking place during all those hours?
Charles, |
Matt,
Congratulations on the LampizatOr DAC, it gets noticeably better as the hours of use accumulate. The other challenger DACs have quite a task ahead of them. The Aesthetix Romulus would be an interesting comparison The LampizatOr's strength is it simply reproduces music realistically.
Charles, . |
Steve says his roomate preferred the Overdrive DAC over the LampizatOr level 7, that's him. Who knows what type of sound he likes, we all simply have personal tastes and biases. Who knows what Matt likes in sound/music presentation? I certainly have my individual tastes as well. I think LampizatOr nails the realism, and innate beauty of music, just "natural" not hyped hifi. If the Overdrive matches or exceeds Matt's Lampi Big 6 I'll be surprised (and impressed). Should be very interesting.
Charles, |
"I'll just say it like I hear it". That's all anyone can expect, reading your posts I'd say you express yourself clearly. I suspect that these comparisons will be informative and much fun to follow.
Charles, |
What is it about the design or part selection of the Aeris that requires an enormous 800 hour burn in? Just curious,Seems a bit over the top.
Charles, |
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Hi Matt,
I get your turkey analogy, but is it done baking in 8 hours or 8 days?
Guido, thanks for your reply. Good thread.
Charles, |
Jafox,
Yes, I don't own the Aeris DAC so have no first hand experience with its burn in process. Logically I really can't understand what on earth requires such excessive hours of use to reach its sonic peak. It would seem (I could just be wrong) 200 hours for synthetic material capacitors or large transformers should be sufficient. Guido documents 800 hours, he has one and I don't. From say 400 hours to 800 hours what is audibly changing? Why choose parts that demand extreme hours in order to finally sound good?
Charles, |
Steve,
I for one believe that synthetic materials generally seem to require extended burn in time compared to the natural materials. I also share your impression that natural material products tend to sound better more often than not. |
Pokey77,
You are right, pleasing everyone is impossible and a fruitless endeavor. 5 different listeners with the same array of DACs would likely result in 5 lists, all with varying top to bottom rankings. Matt I appreciate your time and considerable efforts. You'll end up with what you like best for your system (the objective). This has been a fun thread to follow.
Charles, |
Matt,
A big attraction to your thread is the honesty, don't change that, continue to call it as you hear it. A friend of mine who has heard many DACs described the EmmLabs just as you, he didn't care for it. Everyone has an opinion about something, some love this and others love that. Matt just do your thing and continue to enjoy the experience.
Charles, |
+1 Jafox's observations.
Components that can't preserve the nautral air and 3 dimensional bloom sound dry and artificial. That bloom and air are present in live acoustic performances.I don't agree with Merrill either.What some consider accurate isn't natural IMO.
Charles, |
Matt,
Thanks for the clarification. |
Grannyring,
You're expressing much admiration for Steve's Empirical Audio products. Are there any regrets now that you've moved on to your Aesthetix Romulus or am I misreading your comments? Lampy with Off Ramp vs Romulus CD player.
Charles, |
Grannyring,
I understand. As I mentioned on my system page I heard the Romulus Signature 2 days ago. Utterly musically impressive in the best sense of that term. With that gorgeous sound why fool around with a computer? Yes I understand.
Charles, |
Hi Abruce,
I believe that whatever system configuration makes you happiest is the way to go. I could relate entirely to Grannyring's experience, if you don't that's perfectly okay. We're all just doing our individual thing, that's all. If you're pleased with your Mac Mini then there's no logical reason to change what you have.
Charles, |
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Matt,
Given all the discussion concerning these very latest volume controls and their technical advantages, it's interesting that you still prefer an active preamplifier. I'm not at all surprised by your choice. Ears are wonderful if you trust them.
Charles, |
Hi Audiolabyrinth,
Perhaps I misunderstood Matt, but he wrote that he's done listening to DACs "without" his preamp (Criterion). So I assumed he has been listening via the DACs volume control up to this point. By the way if a DAC's VC were to better an active preamplifier I'd be the first to celebrate that achievement, so far, no go in my experience. Premium active preamplifiers are mandatory for me. So I can relate to Matt's desire to use his Criterion. He wants better sound quality.
Charles, |
Bill,(Grannyring)
Yes, there have been "many" threads on this topic already so I wasn't trying to resurrect it again, but Matt is clearly quite emphatic about this issue. He misses his Criterion very much!
Charles, |
Audiolabyrinth,
Grannyring's TRL DUDE or my Coincident Statement are both well south of 10K (much less) and both would be considered premium level performers IMO. Naturally between these two personal taste decides preference. You may not choose either compared to direct source to amplifier. As Grannyring noted, some will lean toward the direct sound, just depends on what presentation you are drawn to . I'd guess that Matt's Criterion preserves musical information and involvement he finds diminished or absent with direct source alternatives.
Charles, |
Audiolabyrinth,
I am curious to read Matt's impression of these fine DACs via the Criterion. What actually changes sonically with its insertion?
Charles, |
My impression is that Agear's comments are tongue in cheek and are meant to be light hearted fun. Many participants on this site often refer to their wives (and for legitimate reasons). Their input does sometimes impose "limits" on what an audiophile husband can do in regard to spending budget and imposition of the audio system in a shared/room/space. That's the simple reality of compromise for many adults who Co habitat. How this common fact can be considered sexist or disrespectful is political correctness gone over the edge. Men and women both have to give (and take) in a happy long term relationship.
Charles, |
Hi Guido,
You have to admit that WAF is one of the quintessential audiophile topics.Just check the archives and see how frequently this term is used. Okay back to discussing extended burn in hours for the Esoteric players.
Charles, |
Mtruong34,
Different perspectives I imagine. You're unmarried, I've been very happily married 27 years. My wife has a wonderful wit and sense of humor and would understand Agear's context and find the comments funny.Agear your wife seems to have a wry sense of humor and gets it. Neither would need well meaning but condescending defense of their gender. They can handle it and dish it out.
Charles, |
The USB compared to SPDIF is interesting and has been debated for quite sometime. There are very experienced and talented designers who insist that USB is inferior sonically. USB supporters counter with it all revolves around implementation. It seems Berkley has joined the former camp. |
Agear,
your wife sounds a lot like mine. Very intelligent, great sense of humor and never a dull moment. Grannyring, the same could be said of your wife as well. We're lucky guys.
Charles, |
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Al,
You were polite in not asking Steve where he got his EE degree.
Charles, |
Jon2020,
Well said, I have high regard for Al's technical knowledge and just as much for his demeanor as demonstrated once again.
Charles, |
One of the consistent complaints concerning Op amps from some noted designers is their reliance on generous levels of NFB and it's sonic consequences. As expected there are divided camps on this issue. Some designers avoid it at all cost and others seem to embrace NFB in their circuits. |
Wisnon,
I heard the Trinity DAC and the Lampizator level 7 at CES earlier this year. They were in different rooms/systems but the Lampizator 7 (room) moved me more emotionally and was very involving. It'd be a thrill to compare them directly as the only variable in an otherwise identical system. They will likely appeal to two very different types of listeners.
Charles, |
Jon,
Yes, I felt it was more natural and musically expressive or connecting.I acknowledge the two DACs were in different systems and there were contributions from the other components.The Lampizator 7 system just drew my attention directly to the music and for me this is always a good sign. I recognize that a change here or there in the system can change perception and outcome.The sound I heard in the Trinity room in contrast was clinical and not engaging in nature.
Charles, |
Tbg,
Vocabulary is a problem when discussing audio. Your use of the term musical is much different from mine. In my use it's a major compliment and means it's natural,conveys realism and allows emotional involvement. Tbg everyone reading this thread has personal favorites, that's why so many brands exist.I enjoy discussing what I've heard and exchanging opinions with others, but nothing is ever the best for everyone.It's all the variables that make this an interesting hobby.
Charles, |
Hello Himiguel,
Yes, this precisely why I prefaced my statement regarding associated components, room etc. I've had enough listening experiences where changing just an item or two causes significant changes in the sound quality. I not surprised that you heard the same characteristics from the Trinity DAC. At the show at that particular time there's no other way to describe the sound.I had expected better, many rooms at CES manage to get very good sound. High Water Sound, Lamm and Concert Fidelity just to name a few always seem to sound fine on my visits.
Charles, |
Jafox,
Agree about room set up at audio shows. Some are downright excellent sounding and some sound like they were hastily thrown together with little thought or preparation.
+1 on tube equipment, I've never heard any that couldn't be substantially improved with a little effort and experimentation.
Charles, |
Mel,
I have to agree with your assessment of certain DACs, "zero groove" describes it well. Some have the appeal of a precise laboratory instrument,analytical,clinical and cold. Just lacking in music's joy and emotional connection/involvement.
Based on your impression it's good Vitus avoided this "soulless" presentation.
Charles, |
Mel,a good friend of mine has the Aesthetix Romulus Signature and I've listened to it often(it replaced his good sounding Modwright Oppo 105 and then his Lampizator DAC, very good).The Romulus is truly a natural sounding and passionate music reproducer.
Charles, |
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Hi Mel,
I'm certain that Grannyring's modifications to his Romulus improved his sound quality(I put the same Jupiter Cu foil caps in my amplifier, they're terrific). But as you correctly point out, improved sound or not, resale value usually takes a hit. I'd have to think that the Vitus CD player is a ideal fit for your system.
Charles, |
I tend to hold on to audio components for a long time, so in my case resale value isn't much of a factor(as it is for others). I do believe in extracting the most you can(within reason) from components you own and enjoy. Most equitment can be improved sonically with careful thought and objectives. How radical or extensive the modification is an individual matter.
Charles, |
Bill,
Good points, an "informed" buyer who appreciates the modifications rendered is the key issue. If that's the case then yes you'll have no problem with resale. |
Nickolas,
That's a very nice system you have developed. It must sound quite natural. |
Mcondon,
In theory I totally understand your preference for the 'big established" manufacturers, they do suggest a sense of stability and confidence. It's been my experience/observation that it is the "cottage" 1 or 2 man companies who consistently produce the better sounding and more satisfying components. Be it DACs, speakers, cables amplifiers etc. They seem to get it right more often. It could certainly be the case that your experiences differ from mine.
Charles, |
Jon2020,
I think you're right with the 3 predictions. |
Steve, If both are implemented to a very high level will a linear power supply sound better than a SMPS? Your new DAC is an all out effort so I realize every aspect matters. I know that power supplies are a crucial factor.
Best of luck,
Charles. |
Ghosthouse,
You make very good points, this issue is more about political ideology than true science. That change from "global warming" to "climate change" did not go un noticed by astute observers. Once I moved away from the NPR and NY Times influence and overt selective bias I began to see how political this topic is(sadly). There are many in sciwnce who dispute the whole model/idea of climate change. The artic caps are expanding, the model incorrectly predicted/said they are diminishing at a raid rate(wrong) I realized you have to seek alternative viewpoints and do lots of reading. Otherwise there's the risk of buying in to agenda driven filtered information. There are numerous meteorologists who say the CO2 CAUSE/EFFECT CLAIMS ARE FLAWED. READ AND LISTEN TO "BOTH" SIDES AND MAKE UP YOUR OWN MIND. This dedate is far from settled.Now we want to mandate what cars free citizens can drive? Many people feel the federal government has become to large and powerful(I agree). What next? what to wear and what to eat? how many children we can have? When is enough, enough? |
People familiar with the sound of the Dulund CAST silver foil say it is absolutely stunning. Unfortunately so is its price. I have used the copper version of CAST and it is truly superb!
Charles, |
I heard the Trenner Friedl RA Box speaker driven by the Viva Aurora at CES 2010 and it left a lasting impression. Show conditions and yet it was one of the very best presentations I've heard. Utterly natural and realistic tone.dynamics and musical flow/pace. Simply very emotionally involving(real musicians playing in real space,very tactile). It made other systems(most of them more expensive) sound dry, sterile and hifi(canned) relatively speaking.
I have no idea how the TF RA would sound driven by high powered transistor amplifiers such as the Burmester 911. The Viva is an entirely different animal, but a beautiful one with those speakers. I could have stayed in that room the entire day.
Charles, |
