Matt, do you know if the Da Vinchi DAC needs a powered USB connection?
Absolute top tier DAC for standard res Redbook CD
Hi All.
Putting together a reference level system.
My Source is predominantly standard 16/44 played from a MacMini using iTunes and Amarra. Some of my music is purchased from iTunes and the rest is ripped from standard CD's.
For my tastes in music, my high def catalogues are still limited; so Redbook 16/44 will be my primary source for quite some time.
I'm not spending DCS or MSB money. But $15-20k retail is not out of the question.
Upsampling vs non-upsampling?
USB input vs SPDIF?
All opinions welcome.
And I know I need to hear them, but getting these ultra $$$ DAC's into your house for an audition ain't easy.
Looking for musical, emotional, engaging, accurate , with great dimension. Not looking for analytical and sterile.
Putting together a reference level system.
My Source is predominantly standard 16/44 played from a MacMini using iTunes and Amarra. Some of my music is purchased from iTunes and the rest is ripped from standard CD's.
For my tastes in music, my high def catalogues are still limited; so Redbook 16/44 will be my primary source for quite some time.
I'm not spending DCS or MSB money. But $15-20k retail is not out of the question.
Upsampling vs non-upsampling?
USB input vs SPDIF?
All opinions welcome.
And I know I need to hear them, but getting these ultra $$$ DAC's into your house for an audition ain't easy.
Looking for musical, emotional, engaging, accurate , with great dimension. Not looking for analytical and sterile.
4,405 responses Add your response
You guys forced me to report before I was done playing and testing. Lol. So now I need to give little updates!! I adjusted one secondary setting on Roon on the Antipodes which turned off a small file database search setting which I can't imagine will affect anything honestly. But I started playing with something that has implemented a pretty big change which forces me to start comparing from scratch, which is great!!!! The short explanation.... My ODSE/ODSX has always benefited from placing the Empirical Audio "Short Block" filter between source and DAC. I've related the comparison over and over and it's basically always ended better with it in. It does some subtle filtering, but most importantly divides the 5V USB power supply passing from source to DAC. The Antipodes has both a 5V on and Off USB output on its back. I used the "on" USB output and counted on my shortblock to cut that 5V supply. I just tried removing the shortblock and ran the USB from the 5V off USB output to the DAC (no shortblock in place)..... WOW! What a difference!!!!!!!! Emailing Steve after I post this to get his thoughts. I would not have expected this, but it clearly implemented a big change. Stay tuned. Regarding the DX to DS comparison I can't comment. I do believe that there is equipment that requires higher levels of resolution to get the most out of them. So a DS may sound better then a DX on certain systems. I just don't know since I don't have both to compare. |
Hey Mike. Honored to have you post!! I'm speaking with them now actually. I left a message with Al and am waiting for him to call back so we can organize an audition. Glad to hear your enjoying your system! I'm really looking forward to getting my Davinci Light Harmonic 2 in to elevate my system that next step, although this ODSX of mine is just flatly stupid good for the $$$. Good to see your lurking about. Welcome! |
Matt, wonder if you’ve had any opportunity to try the SGM (Sound Galleries Music) server? I’ve used it now on the GG, the Nagra HD, the Aqua Formula, and now my new MSB Select II. it’s very, very, good and excels with Roon and HQ Player as well as MQA (which has been surprisingly impressive). in fact, it is designed around and optimizes HQ Player.....although it is flexible enough to move on to another 'engine' should something surpass HQ Player. I have my NAS sitting upstairs with my files, and the dead quiet SGM sits next to my rack......it’s a dream to use and the support is amazing. the Select II/SGM combo gets into uber analog territory in many unique ways for digital. and with respect to the thread title, the redbook is to die for. I read back a few pages but did not see it mentioned, but there are many pages so I might have missed it. -Mike |
Matt, I feel your pain! All you can do is report what you hear. Like I’ve said several times, I’ve recently compared my Antipodes DS GT to the DX via an Wireworld Platinum USB cable. My wife and I preferred the DS GT. I questioned my hearing because everyone, including the designer suggest the DX is clearly "better" than the DS GT. As a matter of fact, I emailed Antipodes to make sure I had a current DX. Their response was interesting...they told me to trust my own ears and then suggested my system wasn’t resolving enough to differentiate between the DS GT and DX! I’m going to try one more time and leave the DX on for a couple of days prior to listening. I use Roon and my IPad to manage my files. Maybe you just prefer the Aurender N10 and there isn’t anything wrong with that. |
Follow up. Sitting in my listening room enjoying my system (which is what it’s all about, right?). Reading ALL about HQ player and it’s integration with Antipodes. Apparently HQ Player must exist on a PC or MAC and then controls the server app on the Antipodes. Although I’m sure this offers advantages and may give the Antipodes the best sound, it’s just not what I’m looking for. I want a standalone music server. I’m sure there are some who will criticize me for this attitude, but my computer is upstairs and is sometimes shut down by my family members and would add an extra layer of complexity I just don’t want to deal with. Which leaves me comparing the Antipodes with its Native Roon app controlled by the Roon App from my phone. For those with Antipodes DX/DS products PLEASE tell me the software solution you are getting your best results from. I'm listening to Natalie Merchant’s Peppery Man right now on the Antipodes. It sounds awesome. If I wasn’t comparing it to another server then it’s amazing. Gonna spend some more time today comparing the two.... I guess I’m dependent on using Roon direct on the Antipodes. stay tuned. |
Hi all. I’m sorry it took so long to post. I put a LOT of thought into my posts and it’s hard for me to do anything "Sale" wise without it getting back to the thread. Its not yet the 19th. But I feel I have gotten a good taste for what the DX can do. I am reading right now on how to implement HQ Player with the Antipodes. As far as I am aware, the best results with the Antipodes DX are attained when the unit is run with Roon directly or with Roon running through HQ Player. I have run with Roon and using the "Squeeze" software and I will figure out how to implement HQ before it leaves my room. I have been listening frequently and with many visitors and trained ears. I am left scratching my head as I have done many times with other very well reviewed DAC’s I have had in. To me the N10 provides a more natural flow of music and emotion that the DX Gen 2 couldn’t reach. But I am second guessing myself over and over because of the myriad of threads, comments and emails who have told me they know people who think the DX is better then the N10. I am going home today (at work now) and plan on going through my Room settings in detail to make sure I haven’t missed something. And then going to try to implement HQ Player, which seams a bit more complicated and it not quite native. I put it up for sale because at this price level, I think it will take a while to sell and I have some wiggle time. I can always pull the ad. Give me a few more days to compile my thoughts and listen once more. I wasn’t going to post anything yet but my ad has clearly incited panic, riots and pillaging, lol. I can’t begin to tell you guys how important it is to me to report the most thorough and honest opinion I can. As a result, sometimes my posts are not frequent. Sorry. Hang in there. I will post when I have final decisions and opinions to provide. Glory - this thread has proven over and over again that more expensive rarely implies better. I have dismissed many $14,18,24,33,42 thousand dollar DAC’s in comparison to my prize fighting lightweight sensation that is the Empirical Audio ODSX! I listen with dollar blinders on. It’s not about latest greatest, it’s about the best to my ears, in my room. But I have a group of friends (including dealers and engineer/manufacturers) who listen with me so that I make a final decision and report not just on my own opinion but a cumulative experience. Take everything I say with that in mind. But I guarantee every single reader that I am not influenced by anything other then honesty and a pathological quest for the best. Period. |
Glory, I agree with you as another way to look at it if 100% of individuals that compared component A to B and all picked component A. I haven't seen a case that exists like that. I recently compared my Bryston BDP2 to the Antipodes DS GT and immediately sold the BDP2. I preferred the DS GT by a wide margin. I doubt if 100% of individuals that compared the two would come to the same conclusion. |
I submit at this level it's about preference and component synergy. My friend compared the Aurrender N1O to the Antipodes DX and preferred the DX in his system(Absolare amp and preamp, Raidho C3.1 speakers, and the Chord Dave DAC). I have the Antipodes DS GT, which is a step in price below the DX. I recently compared the DS GT to he DX in my system and I preferred the DS GT. |
I tend to agree with the Moonhead reviewer that most of these HE Dac / Servers are like breaking the Olympic record by 100th of a second. A Secretariat win there is not!! $10K on up will get you into a great sounding Dac but there are $30/40K dacs that are better? Oh and the $50/75K dacs will bring you into glory!! So when you find the "best" Dac a short time passes and the urge to look again for the top Dac starts all over. I have the Antipodes Dx gen 32 plus 6 and it is the ...... no it a loser 😧 |
Matt, thanks so much for your labor of love on this thread (and to others who are regular contributors!). I have been on Agon for a long time and this is the best overall equipment thread I have followed to date. I found it a couple of years ago when I was in the market for a mid level DAC (<=$5K), and while the discussion is focused on the highest end products, the principles of auditioning and the theory of how designers and users are solving problems trickles down more effectively than I have seen for capital gains;-). I actually ended up getting a much cheaper but well reviewed (and to me very good sounding) DAC than somd I had been considering, and then swapping the switching power supply out for an outboard LPS, largely after reading Steve Nugents and others design comments And references to Paul Hynes designs. Now enjoying tone, PRAT and sound stage in digital several levels ahead of anything I have experienced before. Keep up your reviews and discussion, I will know what to look for on the used market in a few years... The more recent discussion on servers is also really helpful. Thanks again, kn |
Innuos Zenith is an all in one with a SSD and ripper built in. Nuno from the company set me up with their US distributor. I assume they use a ripping program on the net for perfect rips. Mark, the US distributor just got back to me as I type this. I will call him to find out more. email me with any specifics you want to know. ctsooner@alumni.ou.edu |
Thank you so much CTSooner for the suggestion.... I have started an Excell spreadsheet to track servers with storage+ripper features... Only three entries this far... Please keep suggestions coming. I am confident that by the time I am ready for taking the step towards a music server, there will be a number of choices. G.
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Thank you Matt, I also fear that ACS might be an add on for other music servers instead of an integrated server+storage+ripper, which is not what I am hoping. Eventually I would like to replace my trusty Esoteric X-01 with one single device to serve as an integrated server with mass storage and CD ripper. Future will tell. I am hardly in a rush, and will happily wait for these types of devices to mature. Guido |
Tdimler- I, once again, stand corrected. I did not go to Munich and obviously the Aurender guys keep tight lips until something is ready for distribution. https://youtu.be/a_4NEfSlb_I looks like a separate device dedicated to additional storage and CD ripping. Guido, it's custom made for what you were just asking for. Grins. I guess my questions about their "next" generation music server didn't warrant this as an answer. Lol |
AbeDirov - I already set all Roon to minimalist settings. Thanks. According to the forums, Roon and HQPlayer seam to be the two most respected players Antipodes sound wise. But HQ still requires a computer (still not sure I understand that). I have found that the Antipodes is VERY stable with power outages and brownouts compared to the Aurender, which is huper sensative to deep power fluctuations. July 19th burn in ends. So that's when the sound-off will occur.... Guido - according to the guy's at the shows and their reps, Aurender's product line-up is stable for quite some time and they have no intention of adding an internal CD spinner considering how easy it is to connect through the internet to a computer where you can do your ripping. I have to admit it's a nice feature and I would welcome a dedicated USB port on the back able to recognize an external CD spinner for rips. Peter - happy to hear the Melco. Maybe you know someone to make that happen. Reports are that my Davinci will be shipping next week. |
Not sure if they will. Haven't heard that that's in the works. I know someone who would know and report back after we get back from Mexico. Matt, I can talk for free if you are around. I was told to put the new Melco into that mix. Was told this new upgrade or new unit (whatever it's called) is a leap from what the old one was. I knew this was going to happen with all the servers you and we listen to. I think in three years we will go back to these pages and shake our heads in amazement as to how far we have come! I'm so bummed that the Melco can't use Room, although they said there is a work around if set up on the network to rip etc..if you use one of the NUC's out there. Personally I was waiting on the Room one that was just released as a friend got to hear it before release and raved about it. The Melco easily hooks up to a ripping device (bulk or one at a time) and has bit perfect software like all the other rippers. I know someone who has heard the SG top of the line (is that the unit Matt?) at various shows he's had his own gear at and loved it. The problem then becomes cost and is now the right time to drop the dough on servers? I think with DAC's we are getting better and better also, but servers are still way behind the curve and we need to let companies shake things out to see who will be left standing and able to support the products for the future. Those are just my own thoughts. I have Steve Nugent old server as many in this thread know and still feel it's as good or better than anything I've heard to date. Matt, I swear I will get down and bring it with me and we'll even get Johnny to bring over the Ayre QX5/20 to play with. I will need to do an overnight to do this semi properly. I need to call Steve and find out if it will hurt the sound if I put it on the net so that I can use Roon with it and also be able to rip using the XLD software he has loaded on it. It's a Mac Mini so maybe some of you guys know. If I set it up on my ethernet router, can I use an iPad or phone to control it somehow? He has me running everything through Amara and all the high res/well recorded music is in iTunes, so I don't see how, but I am clueless at times about these things. I'm sure there are others in this thread who may have a similar question. Can't wait for you to get your DAC Matt. ;) |
Hi Matt, I am very curious about an outcome of your Aurender vs Antipodes battle. Just recently I've had a chance to compare Lampizator Superkomputer to DX Gen 2. In the end, Antipodes won, but not by a large margin, mainly due its lower noise floor and ease of use. I had been listening to the Superkomputer for several weeks before my Antipodes arrived. When I first switched it on after the Lampizator, it sounded really awful. On the third day it became listenable and after 5 days it's sound was comparable to the Lampizator. And only after 7 days of almost uninterrupted playback it surpassed the Superkomputer. Also, make sure, that you use Roon as apparently it sounds better than any other playback engine. And, for critical listening in Roon it is important to disable all the background tasks it performs or wait for them to finish. Below is an extract from the Roon knowledge base on how to do it. "Here's a bunch of ideas. Some are things to control for. Some are other troubleshooting techniques. (1) In settings -> services, look "Syncing library now" + wait for it to finish: (2) In settings -> storage, look for "Scanning now..." + wait for it to finish: (3) In settings -> setup, disable both analysis settings. (4) The spinner in the upper right covers importing and metadata lookups. Wait for that to finish, too." And one last thing, when you switch between Aurender and Antipodes, you need to keep the Antipodes powered on at all times. Otherwise, the capacitors inside it are discharged and it affects the sound. What I did, I had another plugged in power cord near my rack and used it to keep the Antipodes powered on even when I was listening to the Lampizator. Good luck and happy listening! Aziz |
Hi gang. The ODSX is back from its spa week with the Dueland caps out and my precious offramp USB input back in. Even with no time on the new caps it's an improvement. I've been cooking th ODSX and it still needs about 400 more hours to hit my perfunctory 750 hours minimum before I make any true judgement calls. I'm also cooking the Antipodes DX Gen 2 in. On first test, with the DX Gen 2 still fresh, the Aurender beat it squarely and without much effort. The Gen 2 DX is leagues better then the old DX Gen 1. But I need to try a few different software server options and I need to give the DX another 400 hours as well.... then I can make judgement t calls. I'm STILL very interested in trying a CAD CAT as well, and I was told about the SGM (Sound Galleries, Monaco) server and I will be trying that in the room after the LH2 arrives. Speaking of the LH2, looks like next week or the week after will be arrival time. I also want to try out the Baetis server again once I finish my Antipodes/Aurender shootout. Curious to hear how much closer the ODSX gets to the LH2 with the usb input back in and the better caps. Sorry for the long breaks. I just don't have much to report DAC wise. I will sneak peak that I have been bitten by the headphone bug and have been trying out and taking notes on pretty much every pair I have tried. I'll post my findings on this thread (just to keep things fresh) but suggest anyone who wants to truly discuss my findings or has questions to find the identical Head-Fi thread I will post. Take care! |
Playback Designs currently offers the Merlot DAC in their Sonoma series and has announced their higher end Dream series at recent shows. There is no current DAC from PD below the Merlot DAC. http://www.playbackdesigns.com/ |
ODSX is back and sitting at the office. And the brand new replacement Chord DAVE is arriving tomorrow. The LH2 should be here in a few weeks. I might not open the DAVE and sell it as NEW, unopened now that the LH2 is coming. It was great but with the ODSX back in the room and the LH2 en route I simply don’t have need for the DAVE. No matter how good it is, it’s not close to the LH2 incoming. And it’s value stays the highest with a sealed box. I am getting into headphones, but that kind of money is hard to justify for a dedicated headphone DAC. SO if anyone is interested in a CRAZY good deal on a brand new DAVE then message me. Also, once my LH2 arrives I will likely be selling my cherished ODSX as well. I don’t need more then one DAC. So if someone wants to secure that then message me as well. In the meantime, I’m going to enjoy the hell out of my ODSX now that it has the USB Off Ramp input and old caps reinstalled. I can’t wait to hear it! The Ethernet input wasn’t working for my system and the Dueland Caps just aren’t my cup of tea.... I’ll report briefly on the ODSX when it’s in the system. Also, the Antipodes DX Gen 2 has been patiently waiting for a DAC's return to be compared to the Aurender N10. So that's pending and will be reported in a week or two. Finally, I’ve sorta gone crazy with headphones and will post my findings thus far here and on Head-Fi when I’ve settled on Cans and DAC/amp. Cheers all! |
Ayre has a custom chip and not the stock chip. Hansen does very little digital filtering and is a master at analog filtering. He had help on the digital side by one of the best in the world. DAC's are all about implementation. The clock used in the Ayre is one of the best on the market. There is a story about it and it's not a secret. You can google and find out about it. Ayre has always had some of the best sounding digital since they got involved years ago and the QX5 is special for sure. I've never heard a bad word about it. It's not for everyone as some like others, but most of the others are much more money too. What I"m hoping is that Ayre eventually comes out with the ref DAC, but I know they had to get the 8 line launched first. I have a feeling that once they get it out, that it will be discussed in this thread as a real threat to any DAC in the world. I have that much faith in Charlie I guess. Matt, can't wait until you get that LH D mk2 in |
I have enjoyed a PS Audio DirectStream DAC for nearly three years and very highly recommend it, especially for CD quality PCM digital files as input. About a year ago I added a PS Audio PerfectWave CD transport, connected to the DAC with an I2S cable, and it's the best sounding combination for playing CDs I've heard. But that might not be the case soon, as I've ordered a PS Audio DirectStream transport from my dealer, I suspect when it arrives, I'll probably say that IT is the best sounding combination for playing CDs. From what I'm reading, this new transport is even better and plays SACD disks, sending DSD directly to the DAC (I only have about 30 SACDs...might influence more spending on Amazon!) |
ctsooner. I see the Ayre has the Sabre ESS ES9038PRO chip in it. Sabre has a rep for brightness and digital glare. I know there is more than just the chip when it comes to the sound, the overall design and implementation is a big part of the sound as well. But I wonder if Sabre has done something with this new chip to eliminate the inherent glare their chips have a reputation of having? |
I got rid of a great sounding ODSE/SE to get the Ayre QX5/20. I know that there are always firmware updates from Ayre that will make it better and better. They are going with MQA route and we will get the first unfold. I know that in a few years I'll send it back and for a decent price, they will install whatever new hardware is needed to keep it relevant and a top DAC for another 4 years. That would mean the life span is 7 years. Why wait for 5-7 years to enjoy the music I love and have fun with a new piece now? I don't have 18k for a new TotalDAC and it's better, but not by a lot, than my QX5/20. I don't see a 5k DAC sounding as good as the Ayre does for a long time. Others love their 10-20k DAC's and they probably won't see a 5k DAC touch theirs either. This is why we are into audio gear and not just music. |
this is a great thread, thanks for the input and information everyone. So, a lot of people keep saying things are moving fast, DACs will improve at a rapid rate. If so, why would it make any sense to buy a 20 grand plus DAC other than you want to enjoy the high quality sound now? Or could it be that even though things may be improving, it may take a long time for sub 5 grand DACs to get to the sound quality level of something like a Davinci Light Harmonic? |
