Acapella vs. Avantgarde

I think I remember that 140 Hz is at 12 o'clock.

It should be marked.

Best regards,

Jim Smith

I've watched this thread for a while. Wasn't gonna get involved, but here I am...

I don't see the Acapellas and Avantgardes as a logical either/or choice. Not really different from, say Watt/Puppies vs. Avantgardes.

The lower end Acapellas are nice, a bit compressed, but nice overall.

However, the Acapellas at this price point offer no advantages of a horn design, whatsoever. The energy and life of the music is sadly compromised in all but the largest models.

So I'm unclear as to why the two would be selected for comparison, other than they both have a mid-horn from a visual standpoint. I've never heard one valid explanation for why they use the horn in a low efficency design. But it does look cool. And I do love their tweeter!

In over six years as the US Avantgarde distributor, I've had countless listeners, including well known reviewers, dealers, music directors, advanced audiophiles, etc. come to listen. NOT ONE could ever detect where the SUB 225 left off and the DUO mid horn began. That's ZERO.

So when people say they've heard the bass not work with the horn, I'm certain they're correct. Doesn't mean it can't. Just means they haven't heard it yet.

I no longer have Avantgardes here, and I have no horse in this race. But I do have substantially more experience than any poster here, and distributor or not, the Avantgardes can be awesome.

Best regards,

Jim Smith

I'm not against mods. I personally know of some that actually improve the speakers.

But what has bothered me in the past is actually getting to hear some of these mods, on the (mod) designers' personal systems.

Unfortunately the basic set-up was ghastly, reflecting no basic voicing and set-up knowledge whatsoever. I guess they thought the mods would (or did) do something. And probably they did.

But mods from folks who have bad sound in their own systems?

Hmmm...

Best regards,

Jim Smith

I have no idea how that would sound. Probably pretty poor.

Most woofers aren't linear to an octave or more above 500 Hz, which is required for the DUO system to blend properly.

A subwoofer of any kind would be a disaster, unless it was used to crossover to the DUO SUB 225 woofer.

The plasma tweeter would be interesting, IF it could be mounted and time aligned without diffractions off the mid horn. And IF it has sufficient sensitivity to mate with the DUO Omega 107 dB sensitivity.

Best regards,

Jim Smith

Thanks , sub was intended as you said to sharpen up the SUB231-G.
The highest setting is 220 Hz on them, not 500, but they are
well integrated with the midrange driver

It's not about the available settings.

It's about the ability of the driver, if left to run full range, to do so linearily quite a bit higher than its intended crossover point.

Which is why I always disliked the "subwoofer" label on the SUB 225s, 231s, and even Basshorns.

All of them have to work quite a bit higher than a typical high quality subwoofer.

Best regards,

Jim Smith

The indicated frequency on the SUB 225, 231, or Basshorn is not correct, IMO. Or at least, using the recommended setting reults in a less-than-satisfactory outcome.

For DUOs, I start at an indicated 140 (specs indicate 170).

For UNOs, I start at 190 (specs indicate 220).

I think the speaker simply rolls off higher/slower than the Sub amp indicates.

And because the slope is 2nd order, 12 dB/octave, the polarity of the SUBs re the horns may have to be inverted. You never know from installation to installation.

With a 1st order crossover (6dB/octave, the polarity is the same through the crossover region. With a 3rd order (18 dB/octave crossover, the polarity is inverted.

For TRIOs, more often than not the setting was in the region of 90 Hz.

Please note that I am NOT saying that these are the correct crossover frequencies. I AM saying that these are the correct INDICATED frequencies to use as a starting point. In fact, I hardly ever varied too much from them when all was said and done.

Bass level is whole 'nother ballgame, however.

Hope that helped.

Best regards.

Jim Smith

Tbg, you make a good point about drivers.

I know Avantgarde's position is that compression drivers do produce the leading edge, but it can sometimes be too aggressive, resulting in bleeding edge... :)

That's not to say I agree, only to point out their philosphy.

Best regards,

Jim Smith

Any placement behind the horn will exaggerate time arrival issues.

Most often shows up as cancellation (dip in freq. response) somewhere between the woofers and the horn, based on distance as well as the chosen crossover point.

Technically, from a timing standpoint, the woofer should actually be forward(!) of the horns.

Since the woofers are crossing as high as the do (shorter wavelengths), too much time offset will detrimentally affect the sound hanging together from horn to sub.

That said, I've placed them futher back on occasion because the bass was so abysmal where they "should" have gone, that the correct time arrival was offset by truly bad bass...

So it's almost always a trade-off...

Best regards,

Jim Smith

Jim, are you agreeing with my sub placement as an acceptable trade off.

Unfortunately, I can't agree or disagree. Without being in your room, and seeing what placement works best, I can't possibly know.

Have you tried inverting the polarity on all 4 subs, to see if that's an improvement? Sometimes with them located behind the horns, it'll help.

If you can't run pink noise with a 1/3 octave RTA, then play some recordings with simply miked solo vocals. If female vocal, use one that's fairly low. The ubiquitous Diana Krall can work.

Listen with all of the subs in one polarity. Note how present the vocalist is.

Then invert the subs. Without adjusting the volume control, play the same recording again.

Very often, one way will sound a bit hollow, and the other way will sound more palpable and present. Hollow is phase cancellation, so you don't want that configuration.

If you're using a jumper to go over to a pair of subs per channel, just invert the polarity at the amp end. It'll take care of both. Obviously, do this for both channels.

How do you set your subs and horns in your room. Could you please include dimensions.

What happens in any room is only a function of that room, and usually will have little bearing on another installation. So I'd prefer not to introduce any potentially confusing tips that may likely cause more trouble than they solve...

Incidentally, this technique is not at all unique to Avantgardes. I remember going through a similar process with the Mark Levinson HQD (Hartley subs, Quad mids, Decca tweeters) system in 1978. And countless systems since.

A lot has changed since then, but the basic laws of physics still have to be obeyed... :)

Best regards,

Jim Smith

3m is about the shortest listening distance you can hope for, and it will take PRECISE tilt adjustments at that.

This is based on your listening seat height. The closer you are, the less forgiving this adjustment is, due to the spacing between drivers.

Also, I've never found a room that cares whether you have UNOs or DUOs. The requirements are virtually interchangeable.

Since the DUOs are significantly better, I'd go for them if possible, maybe even used, over UNOs (which are good, but there's a reason 8 DUOs sold for every UNO).

Amfibus, the Duo mid horn is about 2" wider on either side. Since it's fairly directional, I haven't noticed any problems simply placing it wherever a UNO had been installed.

Flg2001, I'd agree with your friend's observation about the Acapella tweeter. Of course the difference is much less with the DUO, as the DUO is using the smoother and more refined TRIO tweeter driver. Even so, the Acapella tweeter, when it's working right, is mighty tough to beat. I'd still give the honors to it, even over the TRIO driver.

It's always possible to find a particular range where a great speaker can beat another. For me the question is, what's the overall presentation do for me? Do I forget I'm listening to a speaker and literally become immersed in the musical experience?

Maybe it's just me, but so often over the years the very thing that was calling my attention to itself became the thing that drove me to distraction later. Even when that part was truly excellent.

So on the whole, with the lusher and more involving presentation of the DUO (not to mention the huge difference in dynamics), I'd take its musical involvement factor in a heartbeat.

But hey, no matter how objective I'd like to think I am, I'm probably still a bit biased.

So ymmv...

Best regards,

Jim Smith