Anyone using a Lyra Delos yet?

What is the significance of the output voltage level of a give cartridge with regard to audio fidelity? For example, the Lyra Delos cartridge puts out 0.6mV. Some MC cartridges that I have seen put out less than half that voltage level. The apparent benefit would seem to be that the higher output level needs less gain in the phono stage, which likely means higher S/N ratios as opposed to lower output MC cartridges where you would need more gain in the phono stage. I guess my question is, are there disadvantages of the higher output voltage level relative to cartridges that output lower voltage levels?

I appreciate that the ultimate determination of whether one cartridge sounds better than another can only be determined by listening (which has it's own limitations because it can often be difficult to due an apples-to-apples comparison under the same conditions), but I am trying to get a sense as to what is the consideration in determining what output voltage a given cartridge will be designed to produce.

On a related topic, I read the instructions that come with the Lyra Delos that specify suggested load impedance values for use at the phono stage. My question is how did you determine those impedance ranges? By SPICE analysis, or some other method?

i have a lyra delos installed on a triplanar tonearm with a whest ps.30rdt phono stage. it is a very nice sounding setup. one of the advantages of the 0.6mv output level from the lyra delos is that it allows me to use a gain level of 60dB, which provides more immunity to rfi than would be the case if i used higher gain levels (such as with lower output cartridges). from comments by jcarr, i got the impression that bass response should also be better with the higher output level. i can say that the bass response from my setup is comparable to that of a cd player.

i also like the price point for the lyra delos. cartridges are consummables in that you have to replace them after a few years of use: the more you use them, the sooner they have to be replaced. in my mind, the idea of spending $10,000 for a cartridge that i will likely have to replace in a few years is like lighting cigars with $100 bills. as far as i can observe, the lyra delos is a good sounding, and reasonably priced, cartridge. i would be inclined to replace my current cartridge with another. i have to admit, though, that i am curious about what a single-wound lyra delos cartridge would sound like...

11-28-10: Audiofeil
No cd player can approach the bottom end of a properly set-up vinyl front end.

that hasn't been my experience.

11-28-10: Moonglum
Paperw8, I'm also starting to use a Delos into the Whest (although not the dual transformer version) on the 55db setting.

55dB will send a signal of about 1/3 volt to the preamplifier where 60dB sends a signal of about 0.6 volts to the preamplifier. the difference is that in the former case you will have to turn the volume control higher to achieve a given sound pressure level from your speakers. as far as i can tell, a lot of it is a matter of preference and matching signal amplitude levels with other sources. in my case, my preamplifier has an input sensitivity of 0.5 volt and i wanted to make the signal amplitude level from the phono stage comparable to that of my cd player. that said, from what i've observed, using the minimum phono stage gain value seems advantageous since you can compensate in the preamplifier, which works with a large signal than that coming from the cartridge.

as to on-the-fly vta adjustment capability, i suppose the idea is that the tonearm makes the adjustment so gradually that it doesn't damage the cartridge, but i am still disinclined to use the capability. i don't do vta on a per-record basis either although a good vta can make a noticeable difference in sound reproduction. it can be a bit of a hassle because depending on how much you change the vta you might also have to readjust the vtf. i pretty much set the vtf in the middle of the range so that the tonearm stays stable on difficult-to-track records.

11-28-10: Moonglum
Hi Paperw8...the Whest manual merely says "0.6mV-0.35mV = 55db setting", "0.4mV-0.25mV = 60db"(personally I would have written these numbers in reverse but never mind :o) Given that Lyra requests a "0.6mV or less" input, 55 chose itself. I hear what you're saying about low throughput. My concern was driving the phono stage into saturation.

55dB is a very workable setting with the lyra delos. i tried that setting and had no difficulty. for me it was just a matter of preference that i wanted to provide a signal that was at least equal to the input sensitivity of the preamplifier. but i think that jonathan can provide some useful observations on this point.

driving the whest into saturation isn't a problem. i have used 65dB gain with the lyra delos without difficulty. i would expect the whest to be able to provide a signal output level of at least 2v. the problem that you can run into is that you send a really "hot" signal to the preamplifier. then the output volume can get pretty loud even when you have the volume at the 9 o'clock position. not only can that make it more difficult to finely control the volume level, but it would make the volume adjustment way out of line with other sources that you might send to the preamplifier.

for anyone who has a triplanar tonearm, i measured the capacitance of the 1 meter rca cable that triplanar provides with the triplanar tonearm and got a capacitance value in the 70pf to 80pf range (taking into account the accuracy of my multimeter). the input of my phono preamplifier adds about 10pf to 15pf. so in my case the total capacitance (cable and phono stage input) is in the 80pf to 95pf range. so if you are using a triplanar tonearm with your lyra delos cartridge i would say that 100pf is a pretty good estimate for the total input capacitance value to use when you set your phono stage input load impedance according to the instructions that come with the cartridge.

11-29-10: Moonglum
100pf seems extraordinarily low for the RDT? My ps0.3r has a 220pF input C, while the 0.5m cable is assumed to be around 50pF Giving me a total of 270pF. By way of contrast a Trichord Diablo is way up there at 1.1nF(?) but as Audiofeil says it doesn't matter to MCs anyway.

from where you are getting your data on input capacitance? my whest manual provides no information on input capacitance. an input capacitance of 220pf sounds a bit high even for a moving magnet section.

at any rate, once you figure out the input capacitance that you intend to use, my previous comments about setting the phono stage input load impedance will make more sense if you read the instructions that come with the lyra delos cartridge. you will find that having an estimate for the input capacitance is relevant if you want to set the load impedance at the phono stage.

speaking of the whest manual, i will point out that there is an error in the chart that shows the latest (post 1 jan 09) load settings. the figure in the manual indicates that DIP switch position 4 selects a 1k ohm resistor, when in reality it is a 1.6k ohm resistor. if you look at the values indicated on the actual circuit board, it too indicates that this switch position is 1.6k ohm - the circuit board is correct and the manual is incorrect.

11-30-10: Moonglum

11-29-10: Paperw8
"from where you are getting your data on input capacitance? my whest manual provides no information on input capacitance. an input capacitance of 220pf sounds a bit high even for a moving magnet section."

-----------------
James Henriot.

i checked this out and got the sense that mr. henriot did not measure the capacitance across the +/- leads at the input rca connectors.

but in any event, whatever capacitance value(s) you choose to use, the instructions that come with the lyra delos provide guidelines for how to set the input impedance at the phono stage. for what it's worth, if you tell the people at whest that you are using a lyra delos cartridge, they will typically configure the ps.30 for a load impedance value of 470 ohms.

12-03-10: Moonglum
Thanks for that Paperw8.....I'm currently using a load of 220 with the PS0.3r and it sounds pretty good even though I'm still running in the cart, but you've intrigued me so I will try something approaching the 470 setting.

you'll get better dynamics but i think that 470 ohms is a bit bright. i had previously been using an effective load impedance of about 363 ohms. i am currently using an effective load impedance of 455 about ohms but may go back to 363 ohms after a while.

i measured the capacitance of the tonearm cable by disconnecting the cable from the cartridge terminals and measuring capacitance at the +/- leads of the rca connector with a multimeter.

this discussion has become badly confused. the tonearm cable presents a capacitance across the +/- leads of the rca input at the phono stage. jonathan carr provided an explanation on how this can influence the performance of your phono stage in a previous comment in this thread, so i would encourage interested parties to look through some of jonathan's earlier comments because he gave a really good explanation that i am not going to attempt to repeat here.

in any event, a capacitance measured across the +/- leads at the rca input of the phono stage represents a capacitance that would be *in parallel* with the capacitance presented by the tonearm cable. therefore, you can get a measure of the effective capacitance at the rca input by *adding* the capacitance of the tonearm cable and the capacitance measured across the +/- leads of the rca input. you can then use that effective capacitiance in conjunction with the instructions the come with the lyra delos cartridge to set the input impedance level at the phono stage.

just because you can see a 220pf capacitor on the circuit board does not mean that the capacitance across the +/- leads of the rca input is 220pf. in my case, i attempted to measure the input capacitance at the whest phono stage with the power turned off because i was hoping for a simple measurement. it is simply not worth my while to attmept to model the effective capacitance of active devices on the circuit board to come up with a presumably more "precise" value; first, i don't have a schematic of the phono stage circuit board, and second, i wouldn't spend the time to come up with such a capacitance estimate if i did have the schematic.

given the amount of confusion that seems to have arisen, i would suggest that those who have a triplanar tonearm use a capacitance value of about 80pf for the 1 meter tonearm cable and assume the input capacitance of the phono stage to be 0pf. then you can use the 80pf value with the lyra delos instructions and set the phono stage input impedance accordingly.