It should take until the end of September for my DIY colleague to build the 1st phase of the external crossovers (changing resistors first). As the phases get done I will be posting the results. Cheers.
Capacitor log Mundorf Silver in Oil
I wished I could find a log with information on caps. I have found many saying tremendous improvement etc. but not a detailed account of what the changes have been. I have had the same speakers for many years so am very familiar with them. (25+ years) The speakers are a set of Klipsch Lascala's. They have Alnico magnets in the mids and ceramic woofers and tweeters. The front end is Linn LP12 and Linn pre amp and amp. The speaker wire is 12 gauge and new wire.
I LOVE these speakers around 1 year ago they started to sound like garbage. As many have said they are VERY sensitive to the components before them. They are also showing what I think is the effect of worn out caps.
There are many out here on these boards I know of that are using the Klipsch (heritage) with cheaper Japanese electronics because the speakers are cheap! (for what they can do) One thing I would recommend is give these speakers the best quality musical sources you can afford. There is a LOT to get out of these speakers. My other speakers are Linn speakers at around 4k new with Linn tri-wire (I think about 1k for that) and the Klipsch DESTROY them in my mind. If you like "live feel" there is nothing like them. In fact it shocks me how little speakers have improved in 30 years (or 60 years in the Khorns instance)
In fact I question Linn's theory (that they have proved many times) that the source is the most important in the Hi-Fi chain. Linn's theory is top notch source with lessor rest of gear including speakers trumps expensive speakers with lessor source. I think is right if all things are equal but Klipsch heritage are NOT equal! They make a sound and feel that most either LOVE or hate. (I am in the LOVE camp and other speakers are boring to me)
So here goes and I hope this helps guys looking at caps in the future. Keep in mind Klipsch (heritage Khorns Belle's and Lascala's especially) are likely to show the effects of crossover changes more then most.
1 The caps are 30 years old and
2 the speakers being horn driven make changes 10x times more apparent.
Someone once told me find speakers and components you like THEN start to tweak if needed. Don't tweak something you not in love with. Makes sense to me.
So sound
Record is Let it Be (Beatles)
The voices are hard almost sounds like a worn out stylus.
Treble is very hard. I Me Mine has hard sounding guitars. Symbals sound awful. Everything has a digital vs. analog comparison x50! Paul's voice not as bad as John's and George's. Voices will crack.
different lp
Trumpets sound awful. Tambourine terrible. Bass is not great seems shy (compared to normal) but the bad caps draw soooooo much attention to the broken up mid range and hard highs that are not bright if anything it seems the highs are not working up to snuff. I have went many times to speaker to make sure tweeters are even working.
All in all they sound like crap except these Klipsch have such fantastic dynamics that even when not right they are exciting!
Makes me wonder about the people who do not like them if they are hearing worn out caps and cheap electronics? Then I can see why they do not like them! If I did not know better from 25+ years of ownership that would make sense.
For the new crossover I have chosen Mundorf Silver in Oil from what I have read and can afford. I want a warm not overly detailed sound as Klipsch already has lots of detail and does not need to be "livened up" they need lush smooth sounding caps. Hope I have made the right choice?
When the crossover is in I will do a initial impression on same lp's. Right now it goes from really bad (on what may be worn vinyl) to not as bad but NOT great on great vinyl. (I know the quality of the vinyl because tested on other speakers Linn)
The new caps are Mundorf Silver in Oil and new copper foil inductors are coming. I will at the same time be rewiring the speakers to 12 guage from the lamp cord that PWK put in. PWK was a master at getting very good sound often with crap by today's standards components.
The choice of speakers would be a toss up now depending on what I am listening to. Klipsch vastly more dynamic but if the breaking up of the sound becomes to much to effect enjoyment the Linn would be a better choice on that Lp. If I could I would switch a button back and forth between speakers depending on song and how bad the break-up sound was bothering me.
I LOVE these speakers around 1 year ago they started to sound like garbage. As many have said they are VERY sensitive to the components before them. They are also showing what I think is the effect of worn out caps.
There are many out here on these boards I know of that are using the Klipsch (heritage) with cheaper Japanese electronics because the speakers are cheap! (for what they can do) One thing I would recommend is give these speakers the best quality musical sources you can afford. There is a LOT to get out of these speakers. My other speakers are Linn speakers at around 4k new with Linn tri-wire (I think about 1k for that) and the Klipsch DESTROY them in my mind. If you like "live feel" there is nothing like them. In fact it shocks me how little speakers have improved in 30 years (or 60 years in the Khorns instance)
In fact I question Linn's theory (that they have proved many times) that the source is the most important in the Hi-Fi chain. Linn's theory is top notch source with lessor rest of gear including speakers trumps expensive speakers with lessor source. I think is right if all things are equal but Klipsch heritage are NOT equal! They make a sound and feel that most either LOVE or hate. (I am in the LOVE camp and other speakers are boring to me)
So here goes and I hope this helps guys looking at caps in the future. Keep in mind Klipsch (heritage Khorns Belle's and Lascala's especially) are likely to show the effects of crossover changes more then most.
1 The caps are 30 years old and
2 the speakers being horn driven make changes 10x times more apparent.
Someone once told me find speakers and components you like THEN start to tweak if needed. Don't tweak something you not in love with. Makes sense to me.
So sound
Record is Let it Be (Beatles)
The voices are hard almost sounds like a worn out stylus.
Treble is very hard. I Me Mine has hard sounding guitars. Symbals sound awful. Everything has a digital vs. analog comparison x50! Paul's voice not as bad as John's and George's. Voices will crack.
different lp
Trumpets sound awful. Tambourine terrible. Bass is not great seems shy (compared to normal) but the bad caps draw soooooo much attention to the broken up mid range and hard highs that are not bright if anything it seems the highs are not working up to snuff. I have went many times to speaker to make sure tweeters are even working.
All in all they sound like crap except these Klipsch have such fantastic dynamics that even when not right they are exciting!
Makes me wonder about the people who do not like them if they are hearing worn out caps and cheap electronics? Then I can see why they do not like them! If I did not know better from 25+ years of ownership that would make sense.
For the new crossover I have chosen Mundorf Silver in Oil from what I have read and can afford. I want a warm not overly detailed sound as Klipsch already has lots of detail and does not need to be "livened up" they need lush smooth sounding caps. Hope I have made the right choice?
When the crossover is in I will do a initial impression on same lp's. Right now it goes from really bad (on what may be worn vinyl) to not as bad but NOT great on great vinyl. (I know the quality of the vinyl because tested on other speakers Linn)
The new caps are Mundorf Silver in Oil and new copper foil inductors are coming. I will at the same time be rewiring the speakers to 12 guage from the lamp cord that PWK put in. PWK was a master at getting very good sound often with crap by today's standards components.
The choice of speakers would be a toss up now depending on what I am listening to. Klipsch vastly more dynamic but if the breaking up of the sound becomes to much to effect enjoyment the Linn would be a better choice on that Lp. If I could I would switch a button back and forth between speakers depending on song and how bad the break-up sound was bothering me.
Showing 36 responses by vn101606
Hello, I have a pair of SC-VI (160A and 160B) and would like to upgrade the crossover, perhaps with Duelund resistors and caps, and maybe bi-amp using an active crossover like the Krell KBX. Does anybody have the SC-VI crossover schematics, or at least crossover frequencies? http://forum.audiogon.com/cgi-bin/fr.pl?vaslt&1206661296&view Thanks! |
Lots of capacitors, resistors, and inductors to upgrade in my Dunlavy SC-VI crossovers: http://cgim.audiogon.com/i/vs/i/f/1359906100.jpg |
Hello Theaudiotweak, I ordered all the Duelund CAST componentes for the upgraded SC-VI crossovers. The inductors are custom made so they match the Q of the original inductors. I am really looking forward to this major upgrade. Also bought a Cable Cooker Aniversary to speed up the burn-in of the Duelunds. Only the capacitors need burn-in, or the inductors and resistors too? Cheers, VPN |
Hello Volleyguy1, I don't know what is their weight, they are currently being manufactured. I should receive in 5 to 6 weeks the whole set of capacitors, inductors and resistors. Hello BarrySandy, yes, I noticed that about the orientation of the inductors, quite nice the way they are positioned in the original crossovers. I will make sure the new crossovers have inductors in a similar way. Cheers, VPN |
Hi Tom, The 220uF cap is not in the circuit of the 8" woofers. The crossover circuit for the 8" woofers is composed of a 2.56mH inductor in series with a 10R0 resistor (3x 30R0 resistors in parallell), and in parallel with the 8" woofers are a 3.3uF cap in series with a 123.0 uH inductor. I understand the Krell is able to drive the parallel 15" woofers directly, but I was wondering what are the pros and cons of leaving the Zobel network or taking it out. |
Question for those with experience in biamping: I bought a second pair or Krell fbp 750mcx, a Pass XVR-1 and interconnects/cables to biamp the Dunlavy SC-VI. I will use the extra set of Krell exclusively for the 4 x 15” woofers. The passive crossover circuit for the parallel 15” drivers has a series inductor of 6.8mH (first order crossover), and then a RC circuit (Zobel – for impedance equalization) with R= 0R37 (6x 2R2 in parallel) and C of 220uF. When I biamp with the new set of 750mcx, should I: (i) remove only the inductor and leave the parallel RC, or (ii) remove also the parallel RC? Of course I can try both alternatives, listen and measure, but I would like your opinions. |
It seems that Krell Service is now using for their full-recap service work for FPB series the Nichicon PS(M) capacitors. Has anyone compared these with Nichicon gold line? FG, KZ, FW, KW? http://www.nichicon-us.com/english/products/alm_mini/pict_f.htm Thanks! p.s. My external crossovers are still not ready. |
The phase 1 (of 5) of my duelund external crossovers is ready and working. This time only changing all resistors to duelund cast, keeping all solen caps and inductors. I conditioned the duelund caps and inductors (for later phases), but forgot to condition the solen parts with the cable cooker, so it will take several days for them to settle and be able to do critical listening. On a different topic, I decide to rewire my dunlavy sc vi speakers. For the tweeters, already purchased mundorf solid silver gold, which should arrive in a few weeks. For the 15" woofers, I am thinking about using neotech occ solid copper 12awg. For the 8" woofers (150hz to 1khz 1st order) I am in doubt between neotech solid 12awg or cardas litz. For the 5" mids (1khz to 2.5khz 1st order), also in doubt between neotech solid 14awg or cardas Litz. Maybe neotech solid for 8" and cards litz for 5"? or should use same type for 8" and 5"? What do you suggest? Thanks in advance. |
Hello, I am still tweakin the Duelund cast external crossovers for my Dunlavy SC-VI, with the help of Eddie (also engineer, DIY). Resistors: All resistors are now Duelund Cast. Big improvement in detail Capacitors in the main signal path: Duelund Cast. More detail, more air, eliminated some nasality present wih Solen, more open, more dynamic Inductors: Not sure about the effect of the inductors. Maybe changed too many things too quickly. Next we will be doing a complete we-wiring, and biamplification. Should I also change the capacitors and inductors that in parallel to the drivers, going to ground, to Duelund? Would it make an audible improvement? Or should I keep them Solen? |
Salelectric, others, As is turns out, the elements in parallel are more than Zobel networks in some cases they are a filter, so the XO is 1st order up to a point and a 3rd other after a certain frequency. So probably worth upgrading all caps and inductors that are in parallel. Deciding whether to go with VSF-cu/wpio (US$3,358.5) for the set, VSF-cu Black/wpio (US$4483.80) or CAST-cu (US$6402.04). What is the recommended cotton (or other material) sleaves to use to protect the leads of the Duelund components of the crossover? Where do I buy them? Thanks. |
Better positioning and support made a big difference in my XO. All resistors are now Duelund CAST, All capacitors and inductors in the main signal path are Duelund CAST. Secondary capacitors will be changed to Duelund RS in a few weeks. My speaker never sounded this good, the improvement in huge. It is still in prototype form, using and MDF base, with BDR cones supporting it. After the RS caps, we will make a final enclosure, and use better support. See link below. http://cgim.audiogon.com/i/vs/s/f/1403441383.jpg |
TAS: Positioning and Support would be where each component is in the external crossover board, how far away the inductors are from each other and their orientation, how the components are fixed in the board, the rigidity of the board (did not change) and the support of the board (cones, Stillpoints, etc). The big 56uF cap (for the midrange circuit) was previously outside of the board (directly in the floor...) and on its side, now it is facing up and in the board. I don't know the effect of each change, but all the changes added up to a nice improvement. Grannyring: Thank you. I will keep posting the changes. Cheers, VPN |
BTW, I am back to using just the passive crossover, took out the bi-amplification. It is sounding better now. Sometime from now I will measure again and try again to get a better result from bi-amping (I will keep the second pair of amps and the Pass XVR-1 there waiting...). Any suggestions for a better 220uF capacitor than Solen? It is used in the secondary (parallel) circuit of the 15" XO portion. Duelund CAST or Duelund RS is not an option given how much it would cost for 220uF, being in a secondary portion of the circuit. |
Hello, Let me post my question again. The only non-Duelund capacitor left in my crossovers are a two 220uF Solen (one in each). Any option better sounding than Solen for this very high capacitance? Duelund CAST and RS are out of question given price. This is for a secondary circuit, in parallel to the 15" woofers. Thanks for your suggestions. |
Hello Tom, Yes, I have read Jeff's excellent blog. Regarding the mechanical coupling of the Duelund components: 1. Only for the caps or the inductors too? 2. Best solution would be the smallest Audipoints? 4. What are Audiopoints made off? Brass? 5. Would I have to glue the bottom of the Duelunds to audiopoints? What would I use to make them stick to the audiopoints? 6. Would I use Audiopoints .2AP.7D with the tip directly in the wood? or the sound would be better with APCD2 coupling disks? 7. Three Audioponts below each large component? 8. How about the smaller caps/inductors that would not fit three Audipoints below them? Thanks, VPN |
Regarding active bi-amping, I tried for several months, with a Pass XVR-1 (upgraded pot to Dact), and two pairs of Kell fpb 750mcx. Tried many alternative settings, with one pair driving directly the two 15" woofers of each speaker, and the other driving the remaining 3-way passive crossover. Measured, listened, changed, measured, listened, changed, many times. The sound with just the passive external crossover, with the Duelund (caps/inductors) and Path Audio resistors is so much more open and fleshed out than biamping that I finally gave up and I am selling the crossover and second pair of monos. I considered trying the new active crossover designed by Nelson Pass, the First Watt B4, that now uses top components such as discrete Vishay resistors and Toshiba JFET transistors (US$1500), but I decided I am done with biamping. Quite happy about the sound of my system with my new external passive crossovers. |
Hello Volleyguy1, I replaced all caps in the secondary paths (except on)of the 4-way crossover and they sound good. I have not done a direct comparison with the Cast which are in primary path. The exception was a Duelund Cast Mylar 220uF in parallel to the 15" drivers, replacing a Solen, and the Cast Mylar sounds better. As suggested in this forum, I changed all resistors from Duelund Cast to Path Audio and noticed an overall improvement, just sounds more real. Quite happy about it. Cheers, VPN |
Ricevs, Ricevs, I liked the First Watt B4 concept of having an attenuator select so either the low pass or the high pass, only one, uses an attenuator. The other one does not have an attenuator in the signal path. Makes sense. I, for example you use the attenuator only in the Low Pass. The parts in the W4 are very high quality, Vishay 1% metal film resistors, Wima caps, Toshiba jfets, so I am curious to know more about your new XO. When will it be ready? Will it have balanced inputs and outputs? VPN |
Ricevs, You crossovers will likely be top notch. I have an electronic engineering degree, so I can appreciate the concepts you mentioned. You mentioned that I need better speakers. Well, if I hear any that are better than my modded Dunlavy SC-VI, I will certainly consider buying them. After the new external crossover and tweeter upgrade, I have not heard any speaker better than them (for my taste, musical preferences). I have heard many ultra-expensive new speakers recently (several of the top speakers you can think of), and I found out I like mine better. So I am now focusing on buying in an analog front end... Regarding the 5" midrange Vifa drivers, I have considered changing them and analyzed every similar spec midrange there is. However, what I read that people did not like about their sound has been solved by the new crossovers, so it is not clear to me there is much to improve, they sound spectacular now. Maybe one day I may experiment to see if a new top quality mid (with very close specs) works better. Regarding the driver you mentioned, I never listened to it (you have not listened to my modded speakers either), so I don't know if they are better or not. Cheers |