Cartridge new or used ?

First you have to know which stylus profile, then you can search for the manual to find out a life span of the stylus. Some of them must be replaced after 300-500 hrs, some more expensive can be replaced after 1500 or even 2000 hrs. You can count an average listening session at home, so you can imagine how long you can use a cartridge if it’s lightly used demo or hardly used cartridge.

With a macro lens you can see the diamond, but you can’t understand anything about hrs of use anyway. All you can see is that the diamond is sharp and not damaged. If you want to know more you can send a cartridge for inspection under microscope (to professionals), it will cost about $60

Personally i'd like to compare any unknown sample to my own sample. It's easy if it's the same cartridge, but the one i bought NOS (and when i'm the first owner). Comparing one sample to another will tell you more about quality of the used one. If the sound is not at good as another sample then the stylus is worn. 

This is MicroLine diamond under professional microscope and this is the same diamond under macro lens for iPhone. When the diamond (stylus tip) is bigger we can see the diamond much better, this is brand new, never used Dynavector MicroReach diamond, all we can see is a sharpness of the unused diamond. This is what i mean @stevecham  

Here is another example of the MicroReach diamond on the unused Dynavector 23RS cartridge. It is also looks sharp, but it's brand new. 

And finally Replican 100 diamond (the most complicated stylus profile ever) on very lightly used Ortofon SPU Royal G mkII. 

All pictures taken on my macro lens. Diamond in perfect condition or brand new diamond looks sharp. 

Damaged or worn diamond looks different, but to inspect them we need a powerfull microscope, this is an image from the internet, the diamond is worn accodring to the poster.  

@clearthink Let's make it clear: your cartridges are used, each time you play next record your stylus getting more and more used, not sure how can you live with it ?  I'm sorry, i know you don't want to use used cartridges, but actually you do.  

@sleepwalker65

 

Why would you go vintage when brand-new, I’m-abused Audio-Technica Micro-Line cartridges are available everywhere at reasonable prices? (Thanks Chakster) I prefer a known commodity, and it’s worked out superbly with my VM540ML cartridges.

Do you know who was the designer of the Audio-Technica top of the line MM cartridges in the 80s?  I wish to know, because some of the best cartridge designers are no longer in business. Sadly we can not buy a cartridge from Ikeda, Nori, Takeda.. anymore, but their cartridges are hand build and voiced/tuned by the masters themselves. For this reason we can only buy vintage, hoping to find a NOS or perfect (nearly unused) working sample. 

Another reason is unobtained material and methods used in the 80s, but not available today which makes those old models unique compared to new models. 

It does not mean that the new cartridges are bad, but if we're looking for something unique then we have rare cartridges from the golden age on analogue. It's all about curiosity after all. 

@daveyf

chakster, if you don’t believe me, read what stevecham wrote above. Your ’advice’ is going to result in folks damaging their LP’s...unfortunately. . As i stated before, I am certain yours are damaged beyond repair at this point, as your vintage stylus is nice and sharp!

I’m happy to ignore what @stevecham said exept his last passage below:

Personally, I never buy used cartridges.

A person who never buy used cartridges can’t comment on the subject. It’s obvious to me, but not to you for some reason.

If you will ever buy a brand new super expensive cartridge (i know you can’t choose) to play with it for 200-500 hrs do you think it will be a big mistake for any other member (in theory) to buy it from you to enjoy another 500-1000 hours ?

Your thoughts about worn records is something that i don’t understand at all. I have some records in multiple copies, normally i use one copy while another copy is unused on the shelf. We can easily compare them in 5 years. According to your statement the used copy will be totally worn?

I have some favorite record for 20 years in rotation and they are still nice, as another member pointed out, some 40 years old records are better than brand new. Surely we’re not talking about records in VG (bad) condition, but if the used record is MINT- or even VG+ in conservative grading then it’s fine. All vintage records have been played with cheap conical or elliptical diamonds and not by audiophiles, those records sonically are superior to 99% of the brand new releases.

Everyone if free to decide what is better, but only after the actual comparison of the cartridges in the system. That would be fair. Some people on here commended on something they never tried or on something they had bad luck with.

For me it’s obvious that my top of the line vintage MM/MI cartridges in NOS (unused, mainly from the 80’s) or lightly used are better and (surprise) cheaper than some top of the line modern LOMC that i’ve tried up to $5k range. Most of the absolutely amazing and extremely rare MM cartridges are still under $1.5k, some of the spectacular MM/MI are under $700 which is simply amazing in this world where manufacturers asking prices for modern MC can be $15k easily. Well, i am not crazy to pay $15k for a cartridge, no matter which super-duper materials did they used.

Stylus replacement option for MM cartridges is one of the reason to accept lighlty used samples. I was lucky to find some deadstock NOS styli for the rarest Grace or Audio-Technica best and most expensive models from the 80’s. So i don’t need a re-tipper with his third-party parts for the rare carts, i’m happy to stick to the original NOS styli utilized some exotic cantilevers and diamonds.

If the end or the road for any cartridge is SoundSmith re-tip service then i just don’t understand why not stick to the SoundSmith own cartridges if many of you really think that he can repair every cartridge using his different (compared to the original) parts to make it equal or even better than the original? If some of you are fine with refurbished carts aka frankensteins then please find J.Carrs comments about fundamental aspects of the cartridge design (the calculation that every cartridge designer made to decide on cantilever and stylus type or mass etc).

If someone can’t afford very expensive factory service for your overpriced LOMC then don’t buy it. If some of you are happy with third-party service and completely different materials or methods of the re-tipper (which wipe away all the calculations made by the original designer) then why do you think such refurbished cartridge is better than fully original top of the line MM/MI with genuine stylus replacement ?

Modern MM is out of fashion in audiophiles world, manufacturers does not care about it much, because the profit is low compared to the MC, let’s face it. This is the reason why MM/MI from the 70’s/80’s are so amazing.

And finally: When people are talking about resonance and distortion of the equipment, i would ask a question how many of you guys (or those reviewers) has treated the rooms with diffusors, absorbers, bass traps etc ? Acoustic treatment of the listening room is far more important, otherwise we’re dealing with so many reflections, stadning waves etc. Normally i see room treatment in the recording or mastering studios, but not in audiophiles home. Funny, but i’ve never seen any acoustic treatment in the rooms where those "professional reviewers" judging very expensive high-end equipment.

Happy New Year! 

I disagree. Modern moving magnet cartridge technology benefits from the latest refinements in material, design and manufacturing techniques that didn’t exist in the 80’s, when those processes were relatively inefficient.

No, try to find any new cartridge with Hollow Pipe Boron Cantilever, Beryllium cantilever, Diamond cantilever for under $500. Wish you good luck on it :)

The microline styli found on relatively inexpensive cartridges such as the Audio-Technica VM540ML (mslp $250) and VM740ML (mslp $330) are vastly superior conical and elliptical profiles in all respects. They are similar in performance to the vaunted Shibata profile, but with much better stylus longevity. All this in “unfashionable” moving magnet design, but still able to deliver excellent performance along with good value.

Right, the Audio-Technica is a great manufacturer even today, their cartridges are reasonably priced and they are very good, but if you will compare those new MM to the best AT moving magnets from the 80s (like the Audio-Technica AT-ML180) you will understand why this example can be sold for $2-3k today in NOS condition.

The question is not about the MicroLine profile, but also about the cantilever and definitely about the generator. Try to find an AT cartridge with hollow pipe Boron or hollow pipe Beryllium cantilever with a nude diamond of extremely low mass. They did it back in the 80s. I’ve owned many AT cartridges, inspected cantilevers styli under my macro lens. The new AT cartridges are different, but not better. As many other manufacturers the diamond is simply glued to the cantilever with relatively big amount of glue around the tip, i saw that on my Audio-Technica ART-2000 LOMC which was a great MC cartridge, but the AT-ML180 from the 80’s killing it, and it’s MM design, just look at the construction and check the specs here. They made two different versions of that cartridge.

In this thread i have posted an images to compare old (dynavector) and new (soundsmith) ruby cantilevers, you will see that the new method is simplified compared to the old method (much more complicated and more expensive method). I do not see a progress, only regress, i think it’s because of the cartridge demands was much higher in the 70s/80s than today. It was an analog era. Even taking in count an awful price strategy of today’s high-end, the quality of the best vintage cartridges from the analog era are better, well at least to my ears ( and i’m not alone on this forum with this statement).

P.S. I hate conical/spherical profiles, i don’t use cartridges with conical stylus profile at all. I have a few elliptical and hyper elliptical which are really good, but most of my favorite MM or MC cartridges are Line Contact type (Stereohedron, Shibata, Replicant 100, Fritz Gyger, Paroc, MicroRidge depends on the patent).

Grace back in the days made all kind of cantilevers for their LEVEL II and F-14 cartridges: Alluminum, Boron Pipe, Sapphire, Ruby and even Ceramic which is the rarest cantilever ever made.