Thank you Tan, please keep us posted as the sound of your D-Sonic amps evolves...
... Meantime Tim, what's new with your quest?
G. |
Thanks for your interest.
My digital front end is made up of a North Star dac. with a matching transport. They are connected with a special made silver I2S cable. My analog front end is an Origin Live table and arm with Shelter cartridge.My Phonostage is a P S Audio.
My pre is the Wyred 4 Sound STP SE. All are connected with Condure balanced interconnects. The speakers are Danish made Dantax Albatross 8. Each have front and rear firing Scanspeak tweeters, a 6.5"Seas mid & two 8.5 Seas woofers The speaker cables are Clear Day Double Shotgun.
My first system was a pair of Dynaco St70 that I built mated with a pair of Snell C speakers. That was about thirty years ago. Even today my buddies tell me that was the best sound I ever had in my home.I have gone through many system changes since then. Macintosh,Classe,Spectral are just a few of the amps I have used.A few years ago I jumped on the Class 'D' train. I started with a pair of Bel Canto 300Ms. I moved on to a pair of Ref500Ms. I liked what I was hearing, but something was missing.They had a good low end and a nice top end, but somehow seemed disconnected. The first thing I noticed with the D-Sonic was how how balanced they were from top to bottom.As far the soundstage I feel like I am sitting in a huge bubble of sound. They do sound a little dry right now. but they are playing 24/7 with cable radio to break in. |
Hi Tan, tell us about the rest of your system, including cabling, and what amps the D-Sonics are replacing... .... What music are you listening to... How is the sound different from the old amps?
G. |
I received a pair of the 600s yesterday.
Hope I didn't pull the trigger too soon.
From what I am hearing so far makes me wonder just how much better they could be. I know I have a long wait for them to break in, but they certainly are better then anything I have ever had in my system.
|
I was just going to order a pair of the m3 600 monos. But I guess I will wait til the anaview arrive.
I have high hopes for these amps. I am going to use them to drive some kef ls50's.
Please keep us informed on when we can order the anaview model. |
Hi Dennis, why not post some tech info -- such as power conversion modules -- on the product page for each amplifier in the D-Sonic web site... Would reduce this kind of uncertainty in the obsessive audiophilic lore. G. |
This is not true. Only B-Stock close outs and one 3 channel unit use B&O. |
I have just spoken to Dennis at D-Sonic... the new Anaview AMS 1000-2600 have been shipped to him by the oversees manufacturer, and are currently in transit to Houston (TX). Dennis believes that he might be able to start shipping amps using the new modules in less than one month.
As for audible differences from the previous versions, apparently Anaview has done some considerable work in reducing intermodulation in the treble region on the 2600 modules... I conjecture that this might yield sweeter and more textured treble, as well as more musical information in transients, because of smaller amplitude sidebands in the signal. |
Is there significant sonic differences between the current
D-Sonic with the ABLETEC ALC-1000 Amp and the supposedly new ANAVIEW AMS 1000-2600 versions?
I need to buy one, but not sure if I should holdout for the new amps.
Thanks |
According to Dennis at D-Sonic, all 3 or more channel amps
use only B&O Ice. All two channel or mono amps use Pascal or
Anaview/Abletec. |
Anyone know what's in the M3-800s?..D-Sonic |
Any breaking news on Dennis' pre-amp yet, AZ??? |
BREAKING NEWS..Many are aware that during the past two plus years, D-Sonic has been using the ABLETEC ALC-1000 Amp in the D-Sonic M3-600M and the M3-1200S designed by Patrik Bostrom. That amp module has been discontinued and is out of production and replaced by the new ANAVIEW AMS 1000-2600, designed by Patrik Bostrom with ANAVIEW/ABLETEC, and now part of the ETAL GROUP. Recently, Bostrom released the AMS series and his other lines under the ANAVIEW name rather than ABLETEC. ANAVIEW is the first company Bostrom founded. The new AMS 1000-2600 is.. "THE CLASS D AMP TO WATCH OUT FOR." WHY? "AMS"..which means "Adaptive Modulation Servo"..
a revolutionary new loop linearization circuit technology
that was exclusive too, and designed for the worlds finest Class D amp at $45K a pair, The Marten M amp of Sweden designed by Bostrom. For the first time, Bostrom is making available his advanced AMS technology in a line of budget priced class D amps. I hope Dennis Deacon at D-Sonic has picked up on the new AMS series and will use them to replace the Abletec amps.
ANAVIEW AMS 1000-2600 SPECS
TWO CHANNEL STEREO MODE
170 Watts per channel RMS @8 Ohms
300 Watts per channel RMS @4 Ohms
500 Watts per channel RMS @2 Ohms
____________________________________________
BRIDGED TO ONE CHANNEL MODE/MONO
580 Watts RMS @8 Ohms
720 Watts RMS @6 Ohms
900 Watts RMS @4 Ohms
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"What's the point of a class D amp that has all of the disadvantages of a class A/B design?"
Its newer more efficient technology.
That gets you a lot ways further than prior.
The Martin case just appears to be a high end audio attempt to take it to its limits, which is probably even further beyond what most people are looking for than otherwise. |
The finest and most powerful Class D amp on the planet are the Marten M-Amp mono blocks from Sweden. They weigh 100 lbs a piece and run cool. Costs is $45K a pair. These amps ain't for kiddies. The Marten's use Abletec switching amps
Um, would it be improper to point out that he obviously missed the design goals of Class D topology by the diameter of the solar system? What's the point of a class D amp that has all of the disadvantages of a class A/B design? |
Yeah, it's a year later, and no more info in this thread? No news?
One comment: To me, it's ridiculous to publish a spec like Rowland does about the frequency response of his amplifiers in the region that only bats can hear and then say it's down 3 dB? Is that supposed to be impressive? What is the frequency range where we can expect the output of his amplifiers to be essentially flat? |
Mcbuddah, I can't find info on the Sonoma Plateau IC you are using.
How much are they? Other IC you tried besides the Sonoma Plateaus? |
Mcbuddah, thanks for posting. Very interesting. You have put a lot of effort in to this. I will try D- Sonic monos in May next year when I'm back from a long holiday in Asia. When you talk about Poeima 2, you mean Ridge Street Audio Poeima 2, right? If so, I use Poeima 3 ( speaker and XLR IC ). I'm in Sweden but it's a small world. Please, let us know more about your impressions about the amps. I understand you like them because you have put so much energy and made so many changes into your system.
I will share my findings about these amps, but it's a long time from now.
Cheers,
Mikko |
Now that i am approaching a full year with these amps, I have to say that they are extremely responsive to improvements in their own setup as well as upstream in the system. I thought they were really good when I first got them, but they continue to surprise and delight as i have made more than 60 changes to my gear since, mostly in component support. Mine are currently powered by Synergistics Research X2 active master couplers. I get the best results to date using a highly shielded balanced Sonoma Plateau copper cable for the signal. output is through a 4' biwire set of Poeima ii silver ribbons. I have upgraded the connectors on my speakers to cardas CPBP posts that I want to also install on the amps. My amps sit on a pair of round-top granite end tables that I modified with carpet spikes and damping material. Each amp sits on Eden Sound triceratops bear paw brass footers resting on a 15"x2" round maple platform. These are decoupled from the granite top with Maplesade isolation blocks. The amps way only 10# each, with the combined weight of each table/platform/footers is about 35#. It took a lot of listening and experimentation to arrive at the current configuration, but the amps are so revealing that the effort was not overly frustrating. |
The amp was initially placed in an isolation cabinet well away from power supplies and other RF/EMI nasties.
At around 200 hours I upgraded the power cord to a Signal Cable Silver Resolution Reference cable with 20 amp Furutech female termination.
A short while later I put four large Isolate It! sorborthane feet beneath the amp.
Both upgrades clearly made a positive improvement to the amp's slready excellent SQ. |
njs, how are you supporting your new amp? I discovered a few months after buying my M2-600 monos that they really respond well to fundamental audiophile setup tweaks more so than any other components I have heard to date. I currently have mine on 3-level isolation platforms with coupling brass footers between the amps and a maple platform supported on decoupling blocks (Mapleshade blocks work best). Also, the amps are very sensitive to emi/rf interference but only when placed too near other emi-sensitive equipment such as power supplies for my preamps. They also seem to really like good ICs and PCs. |
With over 500 hours of burn-in, my new D-Sonic M3-3800 amplifier is performing at a very high level. Its power is only superseded by its grace with both movies and two channel audio. I'm extremely pleased with its acquisition and expect it to remain in my rack for a long time. |
So my new M3 5 channel amp configured as 1000/1000/600/600/600 watts arrived last week. Even with very few hours it easily bests each amp in a long line of succession in my rack in every conceivable metric... truly a stunning piece. |
I wonder how an amp like the Emotiva XPR-2 with 600 watts into 8ohms would compare sound-wise to this amp? they are completely different animals and the Emotiva looks like a truck with heat and a huge power consumption to go with it, but interesting nonetheless where sound is concerned. |
for me, the balanced mode is far better. |
Has anyone compared single ended vs. balanced? Does it make a difference with the D-sonic M3 amps?
Thanks, |
mikha: that is one gorgeous amp. please report back when you get your class d, whichever you choose. |
The thing I wonder is, if one is in the market for a "good" Class D amp, why would you not try a less expensive solution like D-Sonic first before investing traditional big bucks in an amp? Part of the benefit is the size and efficiency of Class D versus a traditional monster amp. Yes, there is a lot of new technology still that goes into it, but a lot can seemingly be saved by not having to have a big massive box with large heat sinks, etc. in order to get similar performance because the Class D is so much more efficient. THat should translate to lower cost over time as these things become more common for use in cases where monster amps were needed prior. |
" the d-sonic is just much more powerful. so the dynamics are, understandably, far and beyond 70 watts, of course. and compared to the parasound a-21, although another great piece, which I sold years ago, the d-sonic is still the better amp for me"
Power and watts speak for themselves. WHen you need it, you need it. USually the more, the better.
Hi eff Class D amps in general provide power/watts in a small and one would think relatively affordable package compared to big costly heavy monster amps needed prior.
I suspect one might always nitpick, but if a good amp with lots of power/watts is what's called for, most any modern decent Class D amp may be the solution.
There is a big difference between a scenario where an amp is challenged to drive speakers and one where it does it effortlessly, as these high power Class Ds in general are capable of. A lot of the other good things we like about good sound just seems to go along with that, detail, imaging, etc. Overall system synergies and toanl balance, etc. is still something to deal with, but if the amp is up to the task of driving the speakers, that opens up many other ways to address as needed.
Little down side in trying on of these things I think if high power and efficiency is what is needed, whatever might be inside. I'd rather know, but in general the basic benefits should exist with most similar spec'ed amp boards used I would think. Tweaks from there might be different?
THat's what I'm thinking. I'm curious if others agree or not? |
Jorge: thanks again! I'm very curious now. I will try them out next year.
I have a Coincident Statement Line Stage. It's amazing! World Class.
I strongly recommend it! Cheers Mikko |
Mikha: I was using 70wpc primaluna monos. for my taste, I just needed more power to drive my apm 1s. those amps are fantastic, everything one loves about tubes. the d-sonic is just much more powerful. so the dynamics are, understandably, far and beyond 70 watts, of course. and compared to the parasound a-21, although another great piece, which I sold years ago, the d-sonic is still the better amp for me. But the parasound was nowhere in the same league as far as detail. im now researching which preamp to mate with it. I know I can do much better than the parasound p-3. so yes, the upgrading continues as I look for perhaps a tube or class d preamp. I hope that helps. |
yeah, Im sorry. reading back at my posts I can see why. its the M3 1200S. 600 WPC stereo model. sorry for the corn-fusion. |
Very interesting, Jorge!
Thanks for posting. What amp (s) did you use before the M3 1200S?
Can you compare them to the D-Sonic? I'm using a ARC VT 100 mk2 right now. I love the amp but 16 tubes can be a PITA. I'm going to try D-Sonic so I appreciate your info a lot. Cheers, Mikko |
Sorry, Jorge, I have not quite understood which D-Sonic amp you have purchased... Please let us know. G. |
Jorge's testimonial is not unlike what I experienced with my first and current Class D amps.
If that sounds appealing to the buyer, I suspect one has little to lose.
Class D and the better tube amp combos I have heard tend to have a lot of similarities, but its a stretch to say that Class D sounds like tubes or vice versa.
ANy speaker that attempts to deliver extended bass out of a small box should benefit the most in general from a good Class D amp. NHT probably qualifies.
It generally requires a large and expensive quality tube amp with MANY tubes to accomplish the same that way. Other speaker designs that are easier to drive are best suited for most tube amps. Some like some planars, might do best either way. |
after having had the amps a few months now, I think, I've found that they're extremely powerful, detailed and revealing. some of my cds now sound horrible, while the better ones sound even better. you just don't hear the guitar, you hear the finger strumming the string, that kind of deal. on the advice of another goner, I hooked up my old nht25i s to the amp, just for the hell of it. I was scared to do so, because the amp is 600wpc. he convinced me it was ok. so I did. ho-leeee-crap! that little nht opened up like you wouldn't believe. as far as on my genesis apm-1s, the sound is just unbelievable. huge-mongus. do yourself a favor and try one out. one last thing: I have to disagree with people who say class d sounds like tubes. they don't. not even close. but they are wonderful!!!! cheers. Jorge. |
Luigy, I venture to conjecture that perhaps 2-way D-Sonics amps might be optimized for music... Let us know what you find out. G. |
Well, in lieu of actually hearing the vendor is saying they both will sound pretty much alike, FWIW.
Maybe. Time will tell for sure I suppose. How bad can any of them sound? I suspect they all sound pretty good. Generous return policies/satisfaction guarantees always help, especially when so much is still unknown. |
Does anybody know the difference between the Abletech and Pascal designs?
My main concern is audio quality, 60% music and 40% movies, TV shows, etc.
I sent Dennis an e-mail regarding the M3-1500's 3 channel Amp and the M3-1200's Stereo Amp as these would be my 2 options, and He responded that all of his amps have the same sound signature and that he doesn't discuss the specific technology used on his amps, fair enough.
Maybe somebody here knows which design would be better for music and what technology is used on each of the amps mentioned above? My speakers are the Gallo 3.5 |
C'mon...we know you're out there!!!!!! |
Beyond McBuddah, anyone else owning up to owning D-Sonic amps?
Your impressions versus other amps! |
Hi Mapman, you point out the potential problem exactly... While I evaluate the audible performance of a device purely on the merits of, well... Its audible performance, there are a number of components to any of my published scribblings.... And one of the components is an -- as musch as possible thorough -- ddescription of internals, based on my own informal transcription of my recorded discussion of published/publishable technical features, that I have had with the primary source... Usually this being the designer or the manufacturer.
I disregard completely any third party information that I am not able to confirm/corroborate from an open and willing primary source... Hence, third party reports of internal features are cheerily ignored... Nor do I go spelunking inside a component without written authorization by the manufacturer.
In general, doing a review of a mystery box is something that would leave me a little disconcerted. G. |
Yea, I guess what I am trying to say about the Triangles is that they are very fast, transparent and neutral sounding and do what they do extremely well. They would certainly allow the inherent sound of the vintage Marantz to shine through. What they (small Titus model specifically) will not do, is much below 50hz or so. A very nice match to any 20 watt SS receiver. I have a spare yamaha 20 watt receiver that I have used them with and gotten very good results. I think the somewhat warmer sounding Marantz would be even better. |
Assuming different modules used, like ABletec or Pascal or Icepower, make a difference in the sound, which I would expect to be a reasonable assumption, it bothers me that D-Sonic is not more forthcoming about what goes into what models that they sell.
If it were the case that D-Sonic had an identifiable "house sound" that they always target, it would matter less to me, but I would still want to know what is the same and what is different technically.
I can see where this policy would make it harder for someone to do a meaningful review of value.
My guess is D-sonic is marketing on price/vale mainly and in fact may do quite well as a result.
SOme more user reviews would be nice. User reviews where user opens up the box and identifies what is inside specifically even more so. |
Hi Luigy, my review projects are done in sequence, and take quite long.... Usually a few months each. I have a couple of amps and a couple of wire looms in my inbasket already . But at some point it would be interesting doing a DSonic amp... Will it be a Pascal-based or an AbleTech-based device?
Saluti, Guido |
Thank you for the link Guidocorona, It looks promising. I look forward to reading more from McBuddah on his findings in the near future. How about you Guidocorona, is there a way for you to tests these? |
Luigy, your best bet is to be patient until McBuddah is able to post more D-Sonic findings.. In the meantime, here is the D-Sonic review mentioned by Audiozen:
http://www.polkaudio.com/forums/showthread.php?142204-d-Sonic-M2-600M-monoblocks-amp-Pics.
Regards, G. |
Mcbuddah, I would really really love to hear what you have to say about the M3 amps from D-Sonic. |
So, is there another forum where I can go for constructive information? |
Hi Al, actually, Merrill has been pretty forthright in sharing Veritas technical detail... Short of revealing internal mechanical dampening matherials and methods, he gave me enough information for me to wax poetic about Veritas internals for about 1500 words in the PFO review... No wonder King AudioHenry VIII (oops... meant Audiozen) is now considering censorial procedures to decapitate my excessive prose in the most horrific of ways...
Audiopax vobiscum!
Papa Guido XXIV |
