blindjim wrote,
"sorry. I was just informed about this.
It is sheer folly to argue or debate something one can easily prove or disprove using their own equipment.
In the case of directionality of wires, just listen to what is goong on now. Take notes.
Later, merely disconnect a pair and reinsert them in double reverse order, putting the pos on the neg, and the neg on the pos, plus, backwards from their original installation.
Listen after all is warmed up. Listen theu the next few days. Take more notes.
Compare the notes. Anthing different? You have your answer."
>>>>>>Is it just me or is it getting harder and harder to distinguish sheer sarcasm from earnest suggestions? 😳
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Gentle readers, as we have seen on the various fuse threads some folks do not hear wire directionality. Well, some folks don’t hear aftermarket fuses, period. Never mind the direction. But to be fair there are some perfectly good reasons why this is so. Shall we review the reasons some folks don't hear certain tweaks, like fuse or cable direction? 😁
Maybe it’s just me but does anyone else notice it’s almost always the most uh, strident naysayers and no, I won’t mention any names, who claim they don’t hear it? 🙄
"Lead, follow or get out of the way." - Old audiophile expression
Geoff Kait
Machina Dynamica
Advanced Audio Concepts |
Whoa! Hey! Look, I am not a seller of fuses, not a dealer for fuses, shucks, I don’t even use fuses. Or cables. I’m just trying to help people out. I’m not trying to set the world on fire. Just start a flame in a few hearts. ❤️
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almarg
Geoff is actually a magnanimous and beneficent soul. Not infrequently he suggests tweaks that would cost the user nothing, and that provide him with no monetary return. An example is the following excerpt from his post dated 9-7-2012 in this thread:
Taking all telephone books out of the house will usually be audible when you go back and listen to the system. Even if the telephone books are in other rooms of the house, they should be removed. The telephone book is perceived as an intruder by virtue of the fact that it is linked to a strong Field created by the tens or hundreds of thousands of identical telephone books. So, the link to that field can be eliminated by removing the telephone books from the house, making the house Safe from the telephone book "information field".
Regards,
-- Al :-)
et tu Brute?
😧
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🐏 georgehifi "Lead, follow or get out of the way." You may call yourself a leader Geoff, but it’s of the electronically minded gullible, who believe in the same snake oil you peddle on your website. And that’s nothing to be proud of. http://www.machinadynamica.com>>>>>Actually, Georgie Boy, if you brushed up on your reading comprehension a little bit you’d see I wasn’t actually calling myself a leader. I was calling you a follower. Unfortunately, you’re following the wrong sheep. Baaaa! |
costco_emoji
I feel kinda bad like I’ve been too hard on the guy. I honestly think he’d be a blast to hang out with. I’m sure I’ll eventually read every word on his site. It’s most definitely snake oil, but he really is an artist in how he sells it. I can see how some people would be pleased with his products. It’s like one of his customers said after buying his Clever Little Clock, to paraphrase, "I don’t know what to say -- I make fun of the things, but I bought another one."
This all reminds me of something. Oh, I know what it is! It reminds of a den of Boy Scouts discovering Playboy for the first time. 😳 |
Einstein got the Nobel prize for photoelectric effect not relativity, gentle readers. It takes a long, long time before the robed priests of Science dare jump on board any new fangled idea. It's much safer and requires no work to cling to the outdated paradigms of yesteryear. Who wants to get behind some revolutionary idea lest someone would think he's a kook or has lost his mind? Anyone who believes the audio hobby is sheparded by well meaning peer review committees or monitored by NASA is sadly mistaken. Yes, I know what you're thinking, "But what about ____ and _______ and _________? They're very scientific." 🤓
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Look, the standard model of cosmology indicates the total mass–energy of the universe contains 4.9% ordinary matter, 26.8% dark matter and 68.3% dark energy. Thus, dark matter constitutes 84.5% of the total mass, while dark energy plus dark matter constitute 95.1% of total mass–energy content. Not only that but the great majority of ordinary matter in the universe is also unseen.
So, what’s the take away here? It is that scientists don’t know WHAT dark matter IS, WHAT dark energy is, WHERE they are or HOW they got there. Hel-loo! If there were no such thing as dark matter, though, I assure you the universe would have stopped expanding some time ago and would currently be in the process of accelerated CONTRACTION, headed for sure disaster. And time would have reversed direction as well. Addendum - If time did not exist man would have to create it.
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costco_emoji,
I’m laughing on the inside. 😏 I’m afraid you’re putting words in my mouth by characterizing (some of) my tweaks as having a "psychological" effect on the mind. "Psychological" is a perjoritive term that implies the mind is tricked, as with the placebo effect or expectation bias. But my tweaks are not so mundane, they are not cheap parlor tricks. When someone experiences a change to the sound due to one of my clocks being in the room, for example, it is real, as opposed to psychological. The operation on the mind is subconscious, and or conscious, so I suppose in a certain sense you could say it's psychological since it involves the mind. If someone were brought into the room - someone who had llistened to the system previously without the clock - he would also experience the change in sound, even though he's unaware the clock is there. So the effect must be real. Unlike DMT the effect doesn’t wear off. That’s because it’s real, not "psychological." It’s not an hallucination or a placebo, etc. Our sensory perceptions provide us with objective day to day reality. Chemicals can obviously distort that reality. If aliens are present during a hallucination they are actually there. Or are they? You tell me. 👽
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I just checked out your feedback on Audiogon, Georgie Boy. 3? Gee whiz, I didn’t realize the numbers could get that low. See if you can guess who’s laughing now? 😃 By the way, I’m thinking of promoting you to junior assistant shill.
G'day, mate! |
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I never said it was not (rpt) feedback on the market place, Georgie. I never said it had anything to do with the forums" In fact (and I hate to judge too harshly here) but my post apparently went waaay over your head. Don’t worry, mate. So you don’t actually have a product? I thought you did. My mistake.
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Georgie, by the way the word you were looking for is committable. Cheers |
Gee, I was wondering why my room is green and walls are padded. Whoa! 😳 |
Mucho gracias for the heads up, Georgie. You are the model of mental health and reason. Well, except for the stalking. 😛
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costco_emoji,
You say no. I say yes. I am not here to carry on a philosophical debate. Take your own advice, lightnen up. Relax, float downstream. This is a hobby, not the Journal of Physics or The Journal of Psychology or the New Scientist. You are putting words in my mouth. I make no such claims as you suggest in your post. Your imagination is working overtime. |
danvignau
I guess some of you do not realize that interconnects do not flow a DC current in only one direction. Analogue audio signals are alternating current. The electricity moves back and forth, like the sound waves from your speakers. Directional fuse? Give me a break! If you use balanced interconnects, think about why?
>>>>>Sorry, all wire is directional in both DC circuits and AC Circuits. If you have trouble visualizing it I can draw you a picture, in the case of wire and fuses in AC circuits you can ignore the electricity flowing towards the wall outlet. That direction is not audible. The only direction that affects the sound is the direction pointing toward the speakers. That’s why most audiophiles report that fuses and cables sound better in one direction than the other. Even power cords are subject to the rule of directionality, as the dude from Audioquest points out for his new Hurricane power cord.
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costco_emoji,
Oh, please! Why would I report you? You entertain me. I suspect Georgie Boy. He seems like the jealous type. 😡 Let’s not fight, boys. I blush easy.
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Analogluber,
No offense but have you tried ear candling?
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OK, now I'm starting to get a bad feeling again. |
Mitch
BTW, since you are newer here, I will point out the most vocal "forum expert" on this directionality subject apparently lives off the grid and listens to a Walkman, so he doesn’t even use wires.
Wires distort the sound. Didn’t you know that? Even when they’re in the right direction. I don’t drive a tank but I know its motor operates by internal combustion. Gee, I must be a tank expert. |
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stfroth,
I feel your pain. Feel free to unload your angst and disappointment here any time. My door is always open. |
georgehifi
stfroth: And, dude, what is your fascination with sheep?
He maybe a New Zealander? They have a thing with sheep.
>>>I knew we'd eventually find something about which you're knowledgeable. Thanks for your expertise! 🐏🚶
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Fsonicsmith
My hunch is that 95% of IC "manufacturers", particularly the one man operations of under $500 IC’s mark directionality because they think it lends the appearance of technical sophistication and legitimacy."
Question: Why on Earth would anyone in his right mind mark his ICs or speaker cables or fuses with arrows just to lend "technical sophistication and legitimacy" to his products? You know, since many or perhaps even most audiophiles are JUST LIKE YOU and don’t buy into the whole wire and fuse directionality thing. Hel-loo! Please refer to my post last week regarding PATHOLOGICAL SKEPTICISM on one of the fuses threads. Further, Audioquest, a strong advocate of wire directionality, is hardly a one man operation. One more thing, fuses aren’t marked for direction, that’s left up to the user to decide.
In fact, your argument is similar to the argument that most high end cable manufacturers cryogenically treat all their cables to lend technical sophistication and legitimacy to their products. 😀 If that’s true how do you explain the cable manufacturers who don’t advertise they Cryo their cables? Answer at 11.
I personally think it’s just a question of how competitive you as a manufacturer wish to be and how hard you want to win Best of Show.
cheers
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If Chris has more than one fuse in his system, one reason why he might dismiss the difference between fuse directions as small is because some or all of the other fuses are in the wrong direction, hurting the sound, thus reducing the effect of flipping one fuse around. If the system has only one fuse the results should be quite pronounced, all things being equal. It would not hurt to have all the cables running in the right direction as well for a proper test. Unless the tester is aware of these variables and makes the necessary arrangements it’s like shooting blanks in the dark. I have a strict policy to never let a skeptic test anything.
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It’s always great when some excitable new person comes along and starts a new thread on wire directionality, especially when he is a skeptic. It’s a little like telling the same joke over and over to someone with a memory disorder - even though he’s heard the joke before he still laughs heartily. A good time is had by all. 😛 Let’s rock!
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But the OP specifically excluded single ended cables from the discussion. That’s why he also included fuses in the discussion. Fuses, as far as I know, are not single ended. The OP is discussing wire per se. |
This just in! Are Anti Cables an example of a one man operation? Maybe. In any case this is the Anti Cable statement on wire direction. Let’s call it Exhibit B. This is taken from the FAQ page of the Anti Cables website. Since the Anti Cables are marked for the correct directionality one can assume Anti Cables, just like Audioquest, controls the manufacturing process, no?
..................
Wire Directionality?
As an electronic engineer I struggled with this topic for quite a while because it did not fit into any of the electrical models I have learned. It simply does not make sense that an alternating music signal should favor a direction in a wire. One of the great things about the audio hobby is that we seem to be able to hear things well before we can explain them; and just because we can’t explain something, does not mean it does not exist.
While wire directionality is not fully understood, it is clear that the molecular structure of drawn metal wire is not symmetrical and it is this physical difference which is consistent with which direction the wire sounds better. When the directionality is “backwards” there is a loss of resolution, cymbals sound like a spray-can and are truncated, voices are grainy and lack presences, and bass is less defined. When the wire directionality is “correct” the music is more relaxed, pleasant and believable. Once you hear the difference, you will never want to have to listen to wire backwards ever again.
All ANTICABLES products have the correct directionality marked with an arrow.
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Exhibit C, the Chord Company,
Direction
Almost all speaker cables, in fact almost all audio cables, be they for digital or analogue are, in our experience, directional in that the sound will be better with the cable connected in a specific direction. Chord speaker cables should be connected so that the print on the cable reads in the direction of the signal. In effect, the C of Chord should be nearest the amplifier. The fact the cables are directional is a subject of much debate but our experience is that these differences range from slight to quite marked. One of the main areas that can be affected by the direction of the cable is timing and coherence. With the cable connected in the correct direction the sound will be more articulate and involving.
Cheers, Geoff Kait |
ghosthouse
from the Chord excerpt...
"Chord speaker cables should be connected so that the print on the cable reads in the direction of the signal. In effect, the C of Chord should be nearest the amplifier."
If print should read in the direction of signal [flow?], wouldn’t the C of Chord have to be nearest the source?
...as in Source>>>CHORD>>>Amp??
I do struggle with occasional moments of dyslexia.
Uh, is this supposed to be a trick question? 😕
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fsonicsmith
What is one to do with unmarked cables, there are 4 possible combinations of orientation if my rudimentary math skills are correct and I don’t know that four combinations can be remembered well from an auditory-brain standpoint?
>>>>All you need to do is try reversing one IC or speaker cable at a time and listen at each step for an improvement or a degradation. Same for fuses, try reversing them one at a time and judge whether the sound got better or worse. This method eliminates the worry about auditory memory. It only takes a few seconds to reverse a cable. If you’re unsure whether there’s an improvement or not keep moving to the next cable or the next fuse and come back to it later.
footnote: since all wire is directional we also have some other problems. The wire in transformers is directional, all internal wiring in components is directional, all wire in capacitors, resistors, yup, directional. All internal speaker wiring and crossovers, you guessed it, directional. All power cords are directional as well as house AC wiring, not to mention tonearm wire, internal cartridge wiring, headphone cables, did I miss anything? |
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Quick, somebody hit the reset button! By the way, for that very reason I wouldn't ever use balanced cables. |
Just point out the name is Abel, Cain slew Abel. Able was I ere I saw Elba. Carry on. Smoke if ya got em. |
jetter
Did anyone think that maybe the wire just needed to settle in at the new direction, versus it was inherently directional?
That’s exactly what HiFi Tuning used to think. They used to be directionality skeptics. About ten years go. Then they discovered the truth. Which is why they now advocate wire directionality and mark their fuses with the diode symbol. That’s also why HIFi Tuning went to all the trouble to hire someone to measure fuses and publish the data. They had an epiphany, something that has apparently eluded most folks here. Good try, though, Jitter. Very creative.
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I just Googled pathological skeptic and there was a picture of Mitch.
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I had a ball. Too bad it wasn't fun for you. Better luck next time. I said it would be fun but I didn't say for who. |
OMG! This just in! From the Black Cat Cable web site,
"One can hear a slight difference or change in the quality of sound when this reversal is performed, and some people claim that this difference, prima fascie, is sufficient evidence to prove that the speaker cable itself must be more efficient (or somehow otherwise "better") when oriented in one direction vs. the other. Some industry folks have even theorized that the crystals in the metal wire’s lattice are somehow diodic (a diode is like a one-way valve, permitting signal to travel in one direction but not in the other), and the orientation of these crystals within the wire will determine the appropriate "direction" to orient your speaker cable."
>>>>Wow! Talk about misunderstanding the issue. No wonder there’s so much confusion on the subject of wire directionality. That has got to be the most egregious example of a Strawman argument I’ve seen all month. No one ever suggested that wire acts like a diode and permits the signal to travel in one direction but not the other. No way, Jose!
What we ARE saying is that the sound is better in one direction than the other, due to the *unnatural* alignment of the metal crystal structure that distorts the signal in one direction moreso than the other direction. It’s like stroking a porcupine’s back, you’ll be able to stroke the porcupine’s back easier if you stroke it in the direction the quills are pointing. Photons travel more easily and without disruption when they travel along the conductor in the direction of least resistance - resistance caused by deformation of the metal crystals. Measurable difference in resistance. The difference is caused by the crystal structure deformation. One reason amorphous conductors like carbon sound quite good is that they are symmetrical and homogeneous on the atomic level, unlike drawn copper or silver, so there is no issue with crystal structures.
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pennsy
Geoffkait: Your response on my SACD post ( which I removed) had me laughing to the point tears were running down my face! Your dry humor I find amusing! Anyhow, as far as this post! Walter Wegrzyn cable co! He advertises on this site! Search HDMI cables and he will come up! My point: Walter makes custom cables! His HDMI cable (with is directional ) will blow away a Audioquest diamond! I own both! Directional is because copper can be like fish scales under magnification! Certain flow provides less resistance! Actions speak louder than words! Contact Walter! This guys forgotten more than I’ll ever know! I almost exclusively use his cables for my system! My system is just short of 6 figures! Opinions are like belly buttons, everybody has one! Buy Walters cables ! You might change your directional opinion.
I hate to judge before all the facts are in but it appears you have drunk some bad Kool Aid. Get on board the wire directionality train. All aboard! And stop following the wrong sheep. 🐏 🐏 🐏 🐏
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Speaking of cartridges and tonearm wires one wonders if anyone ever tried reversing the tonearm wires to see if there’s a difference in sound. Yes, I realize this would be a royal PITA. Primarily because one might have to try reversing them one at a time. Maybe some tonearm wires come with directional arrows, who knows? That would be nice. Nevertheless, one would imagine low level signal conductors would be rather sensitive to direction.
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Your English is very baaaad. |
A rafer wit? You mean like rafer head? Or maybe Rafer Johnson. Or vanilla rafer? Or just reefer head.
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Peensy - Better not send it to me. What would you eat for dinner? |
fsonicsmith - you have to admit this is way more fun than AA, right?
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In the heat of battle? Whoa! Hey, not only a bad speller but also a drama queen.
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Why in heaven's name would I report you? I'm having too much fun.
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fsonicsmith OP
I’m new here. I posted my OP with sincere interest. I have been informed the topic has been beaten to death previously. I did NOT intend to fan the flames of past bad blood between longstanding participants. I obviously don’t get to play referee or league commissioner. The choice is yours. I am just asking.
I’m afraid you’re mistaken. There are no flames of past bad blood between longstanding participants. Yikes! There is no bad blood at all as far as I can tell. There is some forceful debate or discussion sometimes by both sides. And a little humor to ease the tension. 😬 Nothing to be too alarmed about.
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What are you talking about? We already voted to keep the thread.
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Sounds like a personal problem, Peensy. Have you considered a cold shower? While you're at it you might look into a new spell checker.
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Nice try atmasphere, but you're not really IN the conversation.
have a nice day |
fsonicsmith OP
Someone said, "Ok, back to your corners guys... Let’s say wire has a direction created from the formation of the wire, and in theory will pass the signal better one direction vs. the other. But wait... music signal is all AC, so whichever way you place the wire it’s still going to be incorrect 1/2 the time, and correct the other half. It’s kind of like a tug-o-war where each side pulls the center ribbon back and forth 20-20,000 times per second. It’s a lot of work, but unless one side is declared the winner, it makes no difference which way you hook up the wire."
Bingo-exactly what Chris Sommovigo is saying, I believe.Exactly why even with shield to ground schemes, Chris’ take made me re-think the entire concept of directionality. If the fish scale on wire surfaces theory espoused by AQ and others were correct, we are left to pre-suppose that any competent producer of balanced cables checks the grain structure before assembling the connectors. I doubt that very much. I don’t doubt that there may be a subtle difference with RCA’s when you switch them. Very subtle. Sticking one harmonic dot on the ceiling kind of subtle. It could be due to any number of other things than extruding/grain structure such as dialectric anomalies (inconsistent contact or thickness or properties on a microscopic level), solder joints/connections, or other.
>>>>>>Whether you you believe the audio signal is alternating, or you believe the current is alternating or whether you believe the voltage is alternating, you can disregard the signal or current or voltage that’s traveling in the direction toward the source. The only portion that’s audible is the portion that’s traveling toward the speakers. That’s why you can hear wire directionality in AC circuits just like DC circuits. Which is what HiFi Tuning and I have been saying all along. The so called AC argument is the oldest pseudo skeptic argument against wire directionality but in fact doesn’t really mean anything. It’s a nothing burger! 🍔 Wake up and smell the coffee! Sorry, no Bingo.
By the way, your arguments regarding RCAs and harmonic dots are not persuasive or germane to the discussion. What you doubt is unimportant. No offense to you personally. |
