DO CABLES REALLY MATTER?

From my own experience I did not find much difference in interconnects back when I owned equipment costing on average $1K to $2K. I could hear a very slight change, but nothing to say it mattered. This with cables as cheap as Kimber PBJ up to KCTS silver. I was able to notice better bass, but not much else when I bought my first aftermarket powercord. When I retired and bought new equipment averaging $5K a pop, interconnects became easier to differentiate. And powercords became something I could hear differences in too.So the level of equipment may matter too, beside if you have ears of cloth or gold. Just sayin’.

paul79^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ what he said.

I am totally in the audio cables can make a difference camp, but I can also say some folks ARE bamboozled by hype and cost and size and bling. No question.  On the other hand, that is not the main answer for why folks claim cables (and expensive) cables sound better.

Quote from prof: " I kid...but with a serious point; in the cases you believe to hear differences between cables, how have you determined you, yourself, have not been bamboozled? Surely, such fallibility isn’t just a problem for other people. "
Well, the fact I have returned new equipment ($2,300 Bryston DAC raved about by both Stereophile and TAS, but I found it was no better than my bought used for $250 ten year old DAC. I returned it.I bought a 7 meter Cardas Parsec XLR after buying a few one meter Parsec and enjoying them. The 7 meters was too much for the wire and the sound was thin. The business says break in, I allow a month, then even thogh they are claiming just let it break in, I return it LOSING $1200 because all I can do is trade for some other junk I really did not want. The cable was worthless to me anyway, since it SUCKED. I returned a $350 Powercord since it did nothing more than the same brand $120 powercord did at that time for that item of equipment
SO I can point to several situations where the ’glorious new thing was crap, and crap ONLY due to the sound. not broken, or failed.If that is not enough, then nothing would serve.

So what I read is you seem to be unable to trust yourself, Prof. Some folks over analyze themselves until they can’t even find which way is up.

Prof is one of those guys who just like to go on and on. and then get you tangled into their endless drivel. Usually using what they already got out of you to attack you, in order to get more out of you ,so they can get you hooked. Sorry prof, not taking the bait. Go annoy someone else. Geoff seems to be interested. Bloviate with Geoff. Sorry to stick the prof on you..But you enjoy challenges.

Now that I have alienated one more audiophile.. I can rest easy..LOL (but just to drive the nail in)
And the guy thinks anyone reads his whole thread? Jeesh who has the time? Some guys can say all that is needed in twenty words. Others, to say the same thing, need eighty. Then you got the guys who love to write, they post a thousand word essay every time. Who reads that stuff?

One of the real annoying things is the request to prove it to others. I have no need to ’prove’ anything. I could care less if you use five dollar cables. (or hunt Goodwill for those tossed in freebie sets of cables from the 70’s The problem comes in when folks who are interested in discussing cables get interrupted by those ’other’ folks who just cannot leave us in peace. The naysayers just demand to have proof, claiming the rest of us who are just trying to have a nice time are either deluded, tricked or fools. So sometimes us folks who have an interest in different cables do get into some sort of ’discussion’ with the folks who are here mainly to raise hell. Some site forums do not allow the nay sayers at all. They get kicked to the curb almost immediately.And others basically are run by the nay sayers, so the folks who want to discuss cables just learn to stop posting there. Audiogon does not bother to keep the two camps apart. So sometimes an interesting discussion arises, and at other times all there is is drivel.This is a period of total drivel. Good luck.
Added I have said many times not one person has ever had their mind changed by these threads. the one way change from non believer to believer seems to happen when someone just tries something new, and discovers hell yes they do sound different. I am one of those people too. I have never (actually seldom, not never) heard a testimonial of a believer suddenly deciding it is total BS and dumping cables. And usually those folks were actually non believers who tried some cables and decide they were right it is all BS.

I always put my umptions in there Geoff. That is the best place to keep unptions fresh!

I have to raise one problem with ’blind testing and that is about how our brains function. The problem with listening tests under blind testing type rules is: The part of our brain which most enjoys music, is not really the same part that makes choices. So when we are doing everything to make choices under stress. Then we are not using the part that enjoys music and gets the goosebumps going.. Remember the regular complaint of: When I am doing critical listening, I CANNOT ENJOY THE MUSIC. Or that one cannot stop judging, and thus is unable to 'just enjoy the music'.  (And enjoying the music is when we can say this is good sounding etc, way easier than when stressed trying to judge) That is a common complaint. So to me, there is an inherent problem with trying to do audio testing. Now if someone could rewrite the blind testing rules to overcome this issue, I would like to see how?

I want to thank prof for the insightful and thoughtful response to my post.
Thank You.
And to geoff for not throwing his darts into my toilet.. Oh, wait, he did, my bad.

I have to go with the yeah, it is kinda heard to pick up the changes sometimes. When it is your own system you listen to all the time, it gets easier to hears subtle changes. I would never agree to listen to an unknown system and be asked to pick out changes! No way.But for my own.. yeah.

Actually anywhere the sight, or awareness of the product might cause a response separate from the actual use of the product, blind testing would have value.The fact is, plenty of folks WILL think something they are told is more expensive is better, where it is in fact crap.-man Look at a certain one man company which stuck a Home Depot extension cord inside a garden hose. then charged $1,500 or more for it. Folks LOVED it, endless rave reviews, until someone cut one open. LOL(people 'forgave' him because he was such an honest Christian? but that is another sobs story)

The title of this thread is:" DO CABLES REALLY MATTER? " and I am saying Maybe, but threads like this one, where it has worked it way through all the usual drivel should just get binned. Along with all the other similar threads that all repeat the same drivel ... ENDLESSLY. If anyone here thinks they have added anything 'new' to the conversation? Sorry, NOT. If you think you have actually managed to waste time and helped others to waste time, then YES. YOU HAVE SUCCEEDED. Good luck. I bet you can still add another fifty pages to what has been said. And not say one new thing that actually matters.   Sorry to take the role of Debbie Downer.. But someone has to. Please, just ignore my rant, and continue as before. Nooooo problem. I am SURE the very next post will have the magical solution to all our concerns.

Sorry for the confusion. My 'maybe' was a aggregate of all positions, and not my own personal view.I

Zombie life. Threads go on walking long long after they are actually dead. Seems they just don’t know it yet.Eating brains as they go....

I think analogluvr protests too much. I love older gear, ’vintage stuff can be wonderful. However new gear is a lot more than rehashing older designs "with a sprinkling of fairy dust'. 

Back to actual cables.. I have noticed that when I used a VAC Standard preamp as a tube buffer, I could easily hear the differences between Cardas Parsec, and Kimber KS1016 with changing just one IC pair. However when I switched to an Audible Illusions 3A as the tube buffer I can no longer hear ANY difference between the two IC when switching. However I have also been doing other things to the system. The largest change I can hear is adding two Furutech GTX gold Duplex. My system was a little lean prior, and now is better balanced and ’warmer’ (so the difference in the cable sound may have been more easily heard in the lean condition.) The ’lean; mainly do it my going for clarity as the primary goal for several years. Having gotten ther,e now I can ease off a bit and keep most of the clarity but trade off a little for a warm balance. All this is happening with just powercords and AC duplex. The toys I have been fiddling with of late.

Both are wave forms (and actually very similar in many ways) passing through a medium. Why not? I say yes. Why would you say no?

From a different point of view. The electromagnetic wave (of electrical power) passes through a medium (the wire, and connectors It also may interact with the surroundings. The sheath/insulation and even beyond since the energy is also radiated into the surrounding to some degree. And the surroundings might influence the waveform.The main thing is the medium the waveform passes through. Clearly we can agree that copper, silver or gold (a conducting metal) seem to be the best medium to have the waveform travel through?  The material the wave is passing through can affect the QUALITY of the wave, altering it. One reason for ultra pure copper of silver and long crystal is to do less harm to the waveform as it passes through the medium.The insulation also affects the waveform in less clearly understood ways. (some companies have found insulation which IMPROVES the bass content.. How??? )         ***************************************************************************My own experiments make me say the electrical waveform can be ’thinned out’. Made thicker, made more cohesive or spread out. and changed by the medium it passes through.So wire is not just wire.Compare light passing through a vacuum. no change.. Then add a material between the start and finish points. water, air, various foreign elements. all can change the quality of the light. Same thing with transmission of the electrical waveform through metal.

I tell folks: If you can't hear it, why bother? when asking worrying questions like should I use expensive XY cables here or there? On the other hand some of us can hear differences. And a sold gold cable would SUUUUCK. Solid silver on the other hand.... Maybe. Though silver does cost more than copper.. might cost a lot.I personally was not thrilled with silver wires. I like copper, good ol' copper wires.

To repeat an old saw: "Spending 10% of you system cost on the cabling is good advice for folks who have no idea how much to spend." This advice is NOT for knowledgeable audiophile nor for audiophiles who have a their own notions of ’what to spend’. Just for folks who may be confused and are not sure, the 10% ’rule’ more like suggestion, is a good enough place to start, for those who have no idea. And if you notice is totally MONEY related and an excellent suggestion.

The old 50% for speakers and 50% for everything else is a notion from the 1960’s. When an entire top notch stereo would cost under $2000. Just before I bought the Magnepan 20.7 (and had 3.6 Maggies) I calculate my speaker percentage was only EIGHT PERCENT of my system total cost retail. But I could jump to the 20.7 and not have to buy anything else to match. I already had it covered. (I am still buying stuff to get better sound..)

Some rules were called rules because it was what most people did.My first stereo in 1965 was probably 50% speaker.JB Lansing two ways. The C36 cabinets with the 030 system (15" D130 low frequency driver, 075 high freq driver) with a Fisher integrated SS and a Garrard Lab80 TT.  Shure M55E cart. If only I had had enough sense to get the Fisher 500c or a Marantz tube amp?
I kept that for 15 years. I was not an audiophile by any means back then. Just had a kickin' stereo.

I use a seven meter set of XLR between my Brystom preamp and my amp.                             
I have used in the distant past: Kimber PBJ. Then for many years a Kimber Hero 7m.Then I tried a Cardas parsec, which was a total fail sound wise, and I returned it. Then I made some home made ones with Kimber bulk wire. And finally I jumped and bought a pair of Kimber KS1116 ($3,200) The Hero were decent, good bass in particular, but rather grainy and not nearly as transparent as the wires after it Can really hear the grain in the wire compared to more expensive cables. (but if you did not know, it seems fine) The Parsec 7m (only) was thin sounding, glorious treble, but thin mids. For a month I put up with it 'breaking in' finally I returned it for a refund.     
Then I made my own. Still not full sounding. I used those for two years, until I finally had the extra cash to buy a $3000 IC pair.I am pretty sure the KS1116 is the last IC I will buy, The KS1116 is a good strong midrange, clarity is great. Detail. most natural sound. . lets me hear a lot more in tiny other changes I make to the system. With enjoying that long KS, I bought a few other shorter ones (less money) to use. Now I have four 1.5m pair around the system. I still like the 1m Cardas Parsec and for the money it is a good cable.   
So for me there was a difference in the sound with XLR. I kept a one meter Cardas Parsec XLR, and I have to say it (and the Parsec RCA) imparts a interesting tiny pearl like edge to the notes. Particularly noticeable on piano. even now I try to keep one Parsec in the chain. to give that little touch. even though it is not as clear as the Kimber KS.

slaw, amazing you still have the same components you had when you were (what age 12? 15?( 15 years old? Seems must be,since you value it so much. and say it is so important.. and you still stay in the little room you had back then too? I would guess so since you prize never changing ANYTHING,ever.
I on the other hand buy new stuff when i want to. And move when I want to.
*************************************************************************
Googling moving: " A recent article published by NAHB shows that, based on a long-run calculation that averages mobility tendencies over a number of years, the typical buyer of a single-family home can be expected to stay in the home approximately 13 years before moving out. "
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so my average after becoming an adult on my own, 10 years, 10 years, 17 years, and current 11 years residence is somewhat ’average.I bet you feel really special staying in you childhood room all these years. treasuring and understanding those components you have held on to your whole life. I bet you know them inside and out.
Plus just curious.. From your posts and responses you do not seem the type to go out of your way to annoy anyone. Yet you decided to annoy me? Why? Just to get a response? That may mean you actually are still a 15 year old... Good luck.

When I removed all cabling from my stereo system, the silence was amazing. Not a whisper of noise.. Back in the primordial womb...Putting in those freebies you got with equipment back in the 1970's.. wow 93% of the sound returned. Replacing those with $14000 worth of wire got me up to 98% of perfection.
If only I had $250,000 worth of wires I could maybe get to 99%!(you own personal percentages may vary)

I have to agree with calvinj (the op of this thread) about the 10% rule. Which is just a means if helping new folks who are confused about how much to spend on cables. And not a rule for seasoned audiophiles, who know what they want. It is odd though, that for me, the end result is about the same!I have a pile of decent equipment. My 'in use' IC cables are 9% of my system retail cost. (12% of what I paid, considering used, etc) this does not include power conditioning or powercords. nor speaker cable. (I use Kimber 8TC, so my speaker cable is only 0.1% of total system cost. (maybe someday I will upgrade it, but not soon). If I lump powercords, duplex and power conditioners together, they add up to 12% retail cost, but since the power conditioners were both bought used, the actual cost percentage to the actual system cost is 10%                
So for all wire and related stuff in my system, I paid about 20% of the whole cost for them. 10% for IC. 10% power.

Yes Mr Long is a Chinese Man. So what?

"So much in addition....." IMO particularly 'gaslighting' and the reshaping of attitudes by constant bombardment of propaganda...(goes both ways...)           
On the plus side most folks understand and ignore the drivel...  
A take on the phrase: "if it doesn't kill you it will make you stronger" would be: "If it doesn't blind you with 🐮 💩 it makes you a better thinker."     
Aside from also making us all more skeptical of what we read

nonoise, the second link fails to work. I tried to get a ’fix’ ...just crazy..I suggest using the first link, click on the logo of Posi+ive Feedback, and type in Roger Skoff in the SEARCH function.
You can also see other articles by him that are interesting.If I try and capture and paste any of the header in the URL, they just fail to connect.??                      
BTW great articles..

An example. using power cords, but still useful...             
I was recently buying Pangea AC14XL powercords for the whole system, a few at a time. Now 2/3 of the way (to all XL PC) the sound was spectacular.. I looked forward to finishing.. Well when I had all XL it was no where near as good. Kind of etched.. I let them break in more... No.. Just not as good.   (this is with 10 of them in the system)          
So I went back to the previous Furutech/DH Labs cord on the amplifier. Better. warmer. nice, and not any loss of clarity... This morning I just put back the Furtech/DH Lab on the Conrad Johnson ACT2 to see if it completes the magic of that warm lush sound, yet total clarity.... Too early to say, plus the cord has not been in use for several weeks. So a few hours to say..
The point is you have to LISTEN, and judge. And sometimes going back is well worth investigating.        
PLUS later on I will certainly try the XL (In those places) again.. if I make any other changes... Never know.