Yes. No question. You have to find the right cables for your system, room dynamics etc. I personally prefer staying with one companies cable at a time as this seems to sound best. Sure, cable companies make huge profits, but there are some really smart guys out there doing real r&d every day with real science, engineering, craftsmanship etc. I doubt, for the most part, that these are sleazy people in back rooms laughing at fools willing to throw money away. They're trying to run companies, feed their families and go home feeling like decent human beings, so even though it's expensive they're putting in their time. That being said, if retail is too painful, that's what Agon is for. Get serial #'s and make sure your not buying bootleg. I generally avoid anything coming from China, Asia, sorry, just my opinion based on experience. Companies would rather you buy retail but will usually confirm a cables authenticity if you ask nicely and they are high end enough to mark their cables with #'s.
Spend as much as you can hide from your wife and enjoy. |
Mrtennis wrote,
"It's all in the mind."
That's a rather big matzo ball hanging out there. Just curious, is that comment intended to convey the idea that differences among cables are all psychological? In other words, that differences can be explained by the Placebo Effect or Expectation Bias or even the Nocebo Effect? Do you think that other audio devices, components and speakers are all in the mind, too? |
Another outstanding company is Stage III Concepts. |
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@ Jafant, very good cables! |
"Instead of asking me for proof, ask for proof from the cable companies who use ridiculous claims and flowery language to sell their wares. Where is their proof? Nonexistent, because when the difference between cheap "zipchord" and expensive wire is actually measured. That difference is inaudible to the human ear."
Perhaps Almarg was right when he discussed the interaction between the varying impedences of a given component in combination with the design materials/conductors of a particular cable.
Anyway, I'll stick with Neotech. |
I do not think that all expensive cables/cords make a difference. However, I can attest to Transparent Opus line = very sublime listening! |
@ Arcticmonkey, Great system!, I bet it sounds really good!, Congrats! |
No offense intended, I do tend to be passionate about this subject.
Please don't assume though, that because I disagree with you about this topic that I am a newbie.
I have an ever-changing lineup of speakers but my component's include: Hegel h300, Roksan Radius 5MKII, Paradigm Studio Reference 100's, MacBook W/Amarra, variety of acoustic panels and a bass trap or 2, and I recently purchased a used and slightly marked-up pair of Harbeth 7es2's and I've enjoyed listening to live music on vinyl through them so much I am considering selling both of my speakers and get some Harbeth 30.1's |
@ Jmcgrogan2, very well said my friend! |
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@Arcticmonkey, do not think of it as "Golden Ears", I consider it "Trained Ears". My hearing is normal, nothing exceptional. This hobby is about learning how to listen, and what to listen for. It's nothing more than time and money spent on trying different pieces of gear and cables that will help you learn to understand and appreciate the differences.
There's nothing special about a person's ability to hear differences, it simply shows that they have put in time and money to investigate this hobby. No one is born with "Golden Ears". |
@ Kijanki,, Thankyou, your post was well said, I suppose I would fall in the group of audiophiles that have a resolving system,, and to top things off here, I am a musician,, Arcticmonkey has passion, I have the same passion, just in the other cable camp,, I have grown to realize its good to disagree, but not good to debate, or argue over eanything on audiogon,, Hey, I am guilty of doing just that, I noticed members will not look at you the same as before after that, so, I do my best to carry myself as a gentleman on the gon these days, hopefully, I can gain some conversations back over time, Arcticmonkey is a good dude, cables is not his good conversation, but hey, ask him about his componets and we all are best friends!,, cheers to arcticmonkey. |
07-25-13: Kijanki
Take it easy. It is absolutely normal that your hearing instrument might be not very sharp. No need to go into denial. People wear glasses (seeing aid) and are not afraid to admit that their vision is less than 20/20. It has always been curious to me how this very simple point is overlooked. If we got hearing aids at the same rate as eye glasses think of how many people would be wearing them. And think how foolish some of us would look with big hearing aids sticking out of our ears saying, "There is absolutely no difference between this and that. I listened and heard nothing." Some of my friends hear things I don't. But I'm never sure if they have better hearing or better imaginations...but I don't really care. I just know what I can hear. |
Person could say
"I cannot hear the difference in sound while using different cables but perhaps others can"
instead of saying in denial
"I cannot hear the difference, therefore it has to be snake oil and anybody who claims to hear it is wrong".
Take it easy. It is absolutely normal that your hearing instrument might be not very sharp. No need to go into denial. People wear glasses (seeing aid) and are not afraid to admit that their vision is less than 20/20. Please don't be so defensive to call others sarcastically "Golden Ears".
Myself, I realize, that there are people on this forum with much better hearing than mine. Many of them are even orchestra musicians. Also, many people have more experience in audio, have more resolving systems and better room acoustics. I wouldn't dare to say they cannot hear the difference. |
@ Arcticmonkey,, Hi, I appreciate your passion here!, However, I will stand by my post and my word never!,, You must have not read clearly into my post,I said brands and models make a difference on all test, etc.., please read again, I also said that I agree with you pending what exspesive cables you are useing, If you use something like Taralabs omega gold 4 gauge that has a run per neg and pos speaker cables,, against any thing else period, I would gladly take money from you on a bet, likly, I would be a good samartin and give it back!, I have the omega gold speaker cable,, really, I can use the Taralabs the one cables to do the test and still win that I also own,, like Geoffkait said, the debate is endless, I wanted to put my two cents worth in, I will not debate, there is no way you can convince me cables do not make a difference, goodluck to you sir, and Happy listening to you as well. |
Show me how precious I'm being Geoff.
You can't just write that without facts or figures to back it up. Give me some proof.
Is the fact that the debate has gone on for 35 years more of a point in your favor or mine? |
Arcticmonkey wrote,
"Instead of asking me for proof, ask for proof from the cable companies who use ridiculous claims and flowery language to sell their wares. Where is their proof? Nonexistent, because when the difference between cheap "zipchord" and expensive wire is actually measured. That difference is inaudible to the human ear."
That's precious. Now I see why the cable debate has been going on for 35 years. |
"I my self have run countless test with many, many folks in audio stores and my home, never have I seen where someone picked the cheaper cable!"
Never is a bold word to use here, Audiolabyrinth, are you sure you want to use it?
I do hope the "tests" you've seen are blind and not like the experiments that folks who want to sell you something create.
Going to any major audio show is an eye opening experience. Nordost, for example, loves to swap their Blue Heaven (BH) power chords with the main that comes with the amp. They will play 50 seconds of a song with the amp's AC chord, replace it with the BH and play the same 50 seconds over. "Did everyone hear the difference? The level of detail, more open.... amazing right?". Of course everyone shakes their heads yes and moves on to the next room.
I've never (see there's that word again) seen anyone who can consistently pick any type of cable,interconnect, or AC chord. A true test should be blind, swapping (or sometimes pretending to swap) the two cables (same gauge and length for speaker wire) many times and listening to the same part of a piece of music. Under these conditions no one I've seen can pick the "better" (more expensive) wire, a statistically significant number of times.
Sebrof, I have won drinks from people and no I did not just read about these tests. In fact, when I started my own personal inquiries, I had no idea which side of this debate I would fall. A Google search of "Speaker wire double blind test" will give you many tests to read about. I do encourage you to not just read about it but actually participate in such a test obviously.
I highly encourage you to read this presentation: http://www.andreconsulting.com/Audio%20Equipment%20Snake%20Oil.pdf
Instead of asking me for proof, ask for proof from the cable companies who use ridiculous claims and flowery language to sell their wares. Where is their proof? Nonexistent, because when the difference between cheap "zipchord" and expensive wire is actually measured. That difference is inaudible to the human ear.
Put your money into better hardware (speakers, source). That is where you will get your upgrade.
For the rest of you, I hope MIT, Nordost and the other cable companies are sending you nice Xmas presents for helping them to propagate this myth. |
07-21-13: Arcticmonkey
Cwby.
If you have the resources and inclination, you can easily win money from the people who so vociferously defend buying expensive cable by setting up blind tests.
Even people who design speaker cable can't consistently pick the "better" cable.
I've heard tests of cheap wire vs. expensive (same gauge and length, both properly insulated) many times with the same result. No discernible improvement.
Can you give details? Have you won money from people? Have you done these blind tests yourself or did you just read or hear about them? Descriptions, links, anything? I ask because I've read a lot about these tests but when pushed for details the details never come. TIA |
Yes, but the better the system the more the cables short coming will reveal them self and vice-versa how good they are. |
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Cable facts:
When deciding on cables, don't trust your ears.
A:B testing doesn't work.
The cable that makes no difference is the best one.
Buy the best one that you can afford. |
Hi, I agree with Unfairlane about cables!, I my self have run countless test with many, many folks in audio stores and my home, never have I seen where someone picked the cheaper cable!, I will admit however, It does matter what brand and model of cables a test is done with, not all exspensive cables can pull the job off hugely!, so in a since I agree with you somewhat about cheaper cables, I can tell you Taralabs, nordost, crystal cables,sihltech cables,purist audio design cables, and a few other brands will make a huge difference to cheaper cables!, now when you say cheaper cables, I am assuming any ole big gauge cable and length will do?, Now when you say a cheaper cable from the likes of Taralabs or nodost out performing a more exspensive cable from another brand,, I can believe that story!, Happens all the time!, Happy Listening. |
Youre wrong Arctic.I have done this for decades, Guess I have to be concidered as a "golden ears"-guy but there is not much mystery to it, just a lot of practice and a wery clean, open system that reveals every little change.
The clean, open system is off course the key, when People first time hears my system I often hear "oh, now that explains why you are able to hear..." |
Cwby.
I'm convinced that a person with a "Golden Ear" does not exist. If you have the resources and inclination, you can easily win money from the people who so vociferously defend buying expensive cable by setting up blind tests.
Even people who design speaker cable can't consistently pick the "better" cable. Those who say they can (Chrissain from above) are either lying or some version of the Bionic Man.
I've heard tests of cheap wire vs. expensive (same gauge and length, both properly insulated) many times with the same result. No discernible improvement.
The difference between decent/cheaper interconnects, speaker wire, AC chords and those costing hundreds or thousands of dollars should overwhelm you when tested.
I promise you, it won't. |
Seconding a point that was made earlier in the thread by Nick_sr, the degree to which cables will make a difference depends not only on the intrinsic characteristics and quality of the cable, and on the quality and musical resolution of the system, but perhaps just as significantly or even more so on interactions between the technical characteristics of the cable and those of what it is connecting. Impedances, for instance, among many other dependencies that could be cited which have no direct relation to the sonic quality of the system. See my post dated 12-15-12 here for a summary of many of those interactions and dependencies. That post also describes a couple of examples of how a given cable can sometimes even have exactly opposite sonic effects depending on what it is connecting. It should therefore be kept in mind that the ability of a system to resolve musical detail, and its ability to resolve differences between cables, are two different things. And sometimes there may even be an inverse relationship between the two. Finally, it should be kept in mind that the sonic effects of line-level analog interconnects and speaker cables will be proportional to their length. A reduction in length will bring the performance of those cables closer to neutrality (i.e., closer to having no sonic effects), everything else being equal. That is not necessarily the case, though, with digital cables, phono cables, and power cords, due to the complexity and/or unpredictability of the interactions that are involved. Regards, -- Al |
01-10-13: Schipo
Sebrof
yes they do happen. Double blind testing and yes the chance of picking out is usually just chance that means no better than 50/50. If you don't believe why not conduct your own and maybe just maybe you will walk away a little more humbled. Wow, that sounds like a win/win or lose/lose proposition depending on your POV. If you get it wrong, congrats, cables don't matter, if you get it right, cables still don't matter, you just got lucky. WTF??? |
When I played around with interconnect cables a while back, there was an obvious difference between, say the Anti-cables and the Audio Art IC3. The IC3 was more open and detailed. |
Sebrof
yes they do happen. Double blind testing and yes the chance of picking out is usually just chance that means no better than 50/50. If you don't believe why not conduct your own and maybe just maybe you will walk away a little more humbled. |
Yes, yes and yes, cables are hughly important. And no, one need not spent a small fortune to potentiate your high end pieces. There are excellent bang for buck products out there that often trump the more expensive offerings. Check out the cable company's lending library and try to bring home as many products as you can. The profit margin is hugh when it comes to cable so never pay retail. It's a mine field out there and everyone has a different opinion.Take your time. On a personal note, I just changed out some of my cables (not for the first time) and my system has gone from mid-fi to hi-fi. Want to buy some cables? Just kidding. |
Depends on the cable Stealth V10 speaker cables do. |
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Your dealer is right in that a power conditioner can make a system sound worse, but it's also true that a conditioner can make a dramatic improvement. Which one it is for you depends on how clean/dirty your power is, what components you use, etc. Find a way to try one or two conditioners from the better companies (i.e. Audience, Shunyata, BPC, etc.) and then you'll know. I think most (but certainly not all) people find they make improvements and have some form of condioning in their system, and then there is the added protection from spikes/surges.
I don't think someone can say difinitively whether or not to plug your amp into a conditioner. It depends on several variables, and once you have a conditioner in your system it's free to try it both ways. If plugging into the wall I'd suggest at some point having a dedicated line installed, which you should do anyway (it usually costs less than $500, which in this silly hobby is one of the cheapest upgrades you can make). And yes, a conditioner still makes a difference if you replace the stock power cords. When it comes down to it, in my experience almost everything makes a difference. Whether it's an improvement or not is another story. |
Not all cables reproduce music through my speakers exactly the same. I have had some that cost more than others and the differences were slight to extreme. |
The old cable shuffle.
Yes no yes no..
Well, generally the middle road would be if you can hear a difference, then i guess you would bother to buy better cables.
If you cannot hear a difference in your system, then you would not.
Simple.
For folks who are too ''whatever'' (confused, unsure, unwilling) to trust your own ears.. Then you can go either way.
My take, from my experience, is that cables of all sorts, and conditioners can make a difference.
However my personal 'theory' is that spending more than 10% of total costs on cables is a mistake. because one could BETTER spend that extra money on better equipment.
For 10% of system cost one can buy reasonable decent cables. I have absolutely no proof or reason for my 10% rule except it seems reasonable. And is what i wound up with anyway. Mostly it seems reasonable.
All sorts of folks want you to believe what they say..
All I want you to do is think for yourself.
Read all the crap being spouted.. think about it. figure it out for yourself. |
Cwby8115, Don't forget to burn your new cables. For best results: 30min in 325deg oven. Use gloves. |
The answer is.... Wait for it.... It depends!
It depends on the electronics and the interaction between them, such as between your speakers and amp. Some combinations can be more sensitive to differences in cables, whereas with others a change in cables will have little impact. It is a function of the physical characteristics (inductance, capacitance etc) of the cables and your system, not price. As other have said, the right cables will make a big difference. The price you pay for the right cable will only impact your wallet. This said, maybe the right cables for your system will be more expensive than another.
Figuring out what cable is right for your system is where all the fun begins. |
I think it is to do with how much return you want to get for your dollars. All cable makers tune their cables to their own signature. For example Transparent; Cardas are more musical and Crystal Cables; Nordost are more excited etc... so finding one brand that matches your system is the most important. After that, a lot of money will yell a little more improvement dependent of the quality of your equipment.
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let's talk about materials.
it is possible to design a silver cable that is indistinguishable from a copper cable. while metals can make a difference, they do not always make an audible difference.
the original question has an obvious answer. some expensive cables sound different from some less expensive cables. |
After a long journey over the last 35 years I've settled on a complete system of MasterBuilt interconnects, speaker cables, and powercords. Now, anytime I replace any part of the set, even one pair of interconnects, it's easy to hear how the system is compromized. I have the Reference series and they are expensive. There's a no hassle return option. You might want to try the Standard line first and see what you think. If you try them, give them several weeks to break in. |
I think Larry Greenhill did a double blind test between zip cord and Monster Cable in Stereo Review in the mid 70's... |
01-08-13: Buconero117
Double blind tests conducted by many of our 'authorities' over the last fifty years prove 'expensive' doesn't make the difference 01-08-13: Schipo
Why get out of the hobby? Picking and telling the difference between cables in a double blind test was no better then chance.
01-08-13: Sebrof
Buconeroll, can you link to these or somehow reference them. I see a lot of mentions about these tests but can never ever find any information on them. So I go on believeing they never happened.
TIA Why does everybody keep talking about stuff that never happened? |
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Cwby8115, Now you've opened a can of worms re. power conditioners.
Check the archives, the comments and theories are endless.
The first question is how good is the AC in ur house now...is it steady 110/120 Volts, does ur neighborhood have brown-outs? Then there is the question of how clean/dirty the AC line is. I believe you should start by having the system on it's own dedicated line and breaker. |
im fairly new to the hifi worldbut im confused about something.my local hifi dealer/repairman advised me NOT to use a power/line conditioner to plug my gear into,telling me to just use a power strip saying the previous can actually make my system not sound as good as it could/should.is this true?? One more question i have is if the stock power cables are replaced on amps,cd players,etc will it make a difference if you do use a power/line conditioner?? thank you for any info. |
I consistently hear differences between different cables in my system. I do not aleways prefer the more expensive cable, there are some expensive cables I don't like at all, and there are some inexpensive cables I like very much. Unfortunately the cables I like the most cost more than the less expensive cables I like. It's a question of proper matching, personal preference, and budget. Whenever I switch cables for music loving non audiophile friends they clearly hear a difference. We each though have different preference and budgets. Remember too that many cables hold their value very well over time, so the cost is not as outrageous as it may seem. |
Yes. expensive or not, cables do make a difference. 1st replace your power cords. Live with those for a period of time then work on your interconnects and speaker cables.
Happy Listening! |
All cables will sound different, not necessarily better. If the cables don't have any impact then this isn't your weakest link. What the buyer has to decide is if the difference in sound worth the price. I have owned Porsches in the past and you wouldn't see a 911 owner buying $35 tires on a $100k car. Sure the $35 will get you from point a to point b, but there is quite a bit of difference between a $35 tire and $600 tire. You don't see people claiming: it is just rubber! |
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Expensive does not always mean better. Good cables make all the difference -- of course. |
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Why get out of the hobby? Picking and telling the difference between cables in a double blind test was no better then chance. |
Look closely, there is one word that is different. |
