Do posters intend to hurt the feelings of other members?
It is usually the case that members engage in spirited, often passionate, discussions in threads. That’s normal. Regrettably, often those discussions veer off the tracks, where members are offended or genuinely have their feelings hurt by the content of others’ post(s).
Do posters intend to hurt the feelings of other members? Your thoughts?
I think millennials get a bad rap. Sure, some of the stuff that is in the news, is politicized, etc. makes it seem like @geoffkait is right. I'm retired from a profession in NYC which was not exactly a polite business- high stakes litigation. I now teach part-time at a very good law school here in Austin, Texas. Granted, Texas has its own charms, but many of the students come from all over the US and beyond. Most of them are not only hard workers, but pretty skeptical of the everything, including the popular image of their generation. Obviously, I try to avoid stepping into potholes on some of the more controversial issues, but at least at post-grad level, most of these younger folks are pretty astute, and just want to excel. We can address an issue like a "morals clause" in a contract or the impact of confidentiality in an era that is increasingly demanding transparency and deal with the issues without getting caught up in the gears. For me, coming from an older generation, I've actually learned quite a bit from these young lawyers in training-- I like their energy, they aren't jaded, and often have the ability to look at a problem without the conventional blinders that lead to closed loop thinking. They also grew up with the Internet in a way some of us didn't. And though they deal with it, perhaps more than we do (and are often better at computers!), they seem to have the same skepticism about where it leads. I'm trying to avoid any political overtones here. I do think that it is very healthy to tune out some of the noise, get off the 'feed' and work with people in person.
@nonoise - I love that movie! I went hunting for the Barbara Billingsly clip a few weeks ago and saw a highlight reel. That movie could not be made anymore. They insulted everybody! Some of it was silly, but there were scenes I had forgotten about that had me gasping for breath. Stellar cast, too.
@n80--True. I guess my point was that when you engage with people in person, particularly one on one, or in small enough groups that you can have a conversation, people are more alike than different in some ways. You find commonality. And, to come full circle, that may be where communication on the Internet falls short. Sure, we join here in a common pursuit, but it is different than talking in person. Though, truth be told, when I was involved in an audio club back in the day, not much serious business got done. We did have a good time, though.
As I'm sure you've noticed Celander, and why you posted this, there is an abundance of lack of regard for others on Audiogon. I have no idea why on a high end audio forum low end, intentionally rude and hurtful interactions are tolerated.
My solution would be for the moderators to suspend offenders and then expel repeat offenders. That would in my opinion make Audiogon a more pleasant place to visit, and attract more participants. To my mind this is the best site for discussion of high end audio with others who enjoy the same. There's no reason to be put off by hurtful or derogatory comments directed at others. Intolerable behavior simply shouldn't be tolerated. Those are my thoughts on this subject anyway.
I think Audigon needs more moderator attention as well but I think there has to be an expectation by the owners of the site that it will be civil and cordial.
I also think the moderators would need to pay close attention to context. This takes a lot of work on their part but I have had several posts deleted when the content was obviously intended to be humorous and on one occasion it was a Monty Python quote.
The moderator involvement would need to be more interactive as well. In other words, not just deleting posts without explanation. They would need to guide discussion when necessary, delete posts when necessary, suspend or remove offenders when necessary.
@mr_m - I think every chat board has a "culture" and from what I've witnessed over many years on other boards in diverse fields is that someone who comes on blazing is not going to get a positive reception. A little humility goes a long way. This board is far from the worst in my experience- most people seem pretty willing to help. I only started posting here in around 2006, when I had a question about transitioning from electrostats to horns and got a lot of good feedback.
Moderation- generally- is almost a last resort. Participants should self-moderate to a degree. When a mod has to step in, things are usually ugly- personal attacks, politics or the like. But, I do agree that once the rules are set, a violation should have consequences, starting with a 'time out.' I acted as a consigliere for an exotic car board for a number of years- lots of big egos and no small amount of sniping. It was a thankless task for the mods, who were largely volunteers. Tammy does a pretty good job in my estimation.
Audio Circle has a completely different feel to it. Certainly, the moderators over there (one per forum?) clamp down a lot faster on any nastiness, but then there appears to be much less nastiness in the first place. Chicken and the egg?
@whart I agree about forums having a culture. That's why I mentioned that I believe that culture has to come from the top. That's the owner and the owner's moderating staff.
I have also been a moderator for a very large photography web site. The owners had a primary goal from the outset that it would be a friendly, helpful site. They had many moderators, all of us volunteers, and we clearly understood what their goals were. This created a culture of friendliness and civility that has been ongoing for nearly 20 years now.
Yes, it is a lot of work.
I also participate in a tractor oriented web site that is the nicest most helpful website, not to mention the most useful website on the widest array of topics I've ever been to. It seems to be self moderated for the most part.
On both of these sites trolls pop up but they never stay....or they get the boot.
Luminous Landscape is another photography website that is friendly and helpful. It is a smaller volume site and it is a paid membership. The level of discussion is high. The level of contention and in-civility is near zero and all topics are allowed.
Audiogon is tainted by a small number of members who seem to delight in contention and belittling others. The rest seem very helpful and even the nicest among the helpful folks often get drawn into the bickering of the resident trolls, usually on the same topics. I do too sometimes, but less often now.
I think every chat board has a "culture" and from what I’ve witnessed over many years on other boards in diverse fields is that someone who comes on blazing is not going to get a positive reception. A little humility goes a long way. This board is far from the worst in my experience- most people seem pretty willing to help ... Moderation- generally- is almost a last resort. Participants should self-moderate to a degree. When a mod has to step in, things are usually ugly- personal attacks, politics or the like. But, I do agree that once the rules are set, a violation should have consequences, starting with a ’time out.’ ... Tammy does a pretty good job in my estimation.
I agree. For those who think the site would benefit from more stringent moderation, I suggest use of the "Report this" flag, which is quite effective. If it’s not, or you have a larger concern, it’s worth reaching out to Audiogon support using the "Contact Us" link at the bottom of the page. I have found them to be very responsive.
Audiogon staff will absolutely give forum violators a temporary suspension or - in extreme cases - ban them entirely. But sometimes they need a little input from us first so that they are aware of what’s happening in the forums.
Look at it a different way. This forum exists to make money. If it clearly lost the site owners money, it would be long gone. So what takes place to make the site owners think it is worth the bother? Number one it attracts customers. Folks who use, or just READ the threads matter. Since when it comes time to buy something used. They will comes to THIS site to buy it, 100% that is the ’bottom line’So ,with that, what makes the forums worth the bother to READ for anyone wandering the web? Certainly NOT dull as dust drivel. People, particularly passive readers only, want some level of tension, something new, something to remember, but perhaps not fist fights on every page? The readers, (who outnumber the posters) want to read something interesting. When you permanently kick out, or even temporarily, to the point a lot of folks quit and never come back, you loose the folks who are interesting, who are passionate, and who write stuff others want to read! Even almarg needs someone else to post something to comment on! ..So what level of tension is the right amount? IMO it is exactly AS IT IS NOW. To me more moderating would just make the place dull. Many of the interesting folks who actually answer questions,, start silly threads to have arguments, would leave. Then what? The burden falls on a few. and soon all you have are cobwebs, and no readers. Whom, to me, are the juice, the folks who actually make the place work! (for the owners) are all those folks who never post, just read! If it was more violent, too many would become afraid to post, or just hate the place. So the current level is just fine. Like that favorite drinking place, change even one little thing.. Suddenly the place is empty, Everyone went somewhere else. So for the folks who want to change it to some form of ’safe space’? you are crazy. LOL
I have to consider my own thin skin posting here or anywhere else. I choose my words for the sake of discussion, not argumentation. I will almost always lose an argument, since I have not been very good at it. Discussion, on the other hand is something that I have an interest in, whether I agree with the other party or not. I can learn, or even judge from statements of feeling rather than fact (whatever that is). This can be a way to try something new, or realize that you might want to avoid new discussion with that party in the future.
@elizabeth if the reason people come here is for the arguments and incivility then you are correct.
I'd like to think they come to discuss hi-fi and music. Maybe I'm wrong.
Kind of reminds me of the Monty Python skit where people come pay to have an argument. If that's what Audiogon is....well....just as stupid as that skit....but without the humor.
I do not think folks come here for the arguments or the fights. I think those things in a small measure act as a spice to make the place interesting. Also it is a person thing. Some folks who make noise' are the very same folks who post good stuff. I am certain, if this place was some sort of 'safe space' My az would be long ago kicked to the curb. Just sayin'. Naturally nothing would be lost, since I never write anything worth reading. And it would save me hours of wasted existence....
Nothing like meanness and disrespect to draw in the members of a website essentially dedicated to music.
For my part, I wouldn't miss it and don't miss it on other sites where it does not exist.
Not claiming sainthood here either. I'm quick to be snarky and slow to turn the other cheek. Here anyway. On sites where I know it is not part of the site culture I keep it in check much better.
When I found that I was wasting my existence with FaceBook I walked away. Deactivated the account. Will never go back.
I deactivated my Audiogon account recently too. Was gone maybe a month. Got tired of the nasty responses and my nasty responses in return. When asked why I was leaving I wrote "toxic forum environment".
Is it really that bad here? No, not compared to the majority of other places people interact on the internet. But why does an audio site need nastiness to keep us coming back? It is everywhere else. Why come here for more.
Anyway, in an attempt not to be a snowflake I decided to come back, to try to change what I can about ME and how I respond without expecting anyone else to change FOR me.
And to avoid discussions that have nothing to do with music/audio.
@n80- here's my thinking on that- elevate the discussion on the subjects of interest and ignore the rest. The philosophical discussions tend to get out of hand sometimes, but I guess anything can go astray. I try to contribute where I can, acknowledge my limitations (which are vast) and enjoy the ride. Life's too short, etc. Walking away from the terminal is a healthy thing in my estimation. I've also found that, in many things, my perspective changes over time. Every five years or so when I was working my career- I'd say, "why am I doing this?" I'd go through some soul searching, and eventually recommit with a slightly different view than I had when I was starting, at the age of 24. You've been around the block. There is no perfect place where all is good (though Austin is pretty close except in the summer, when we pay for the unicorns and rainbows with relentless heat). On discourse and what you like or don't--Make it better. That's all you can do-- and others may follow or at least you'll engage with people of like temperament. FWIW, I think you've been an interesting contributor here- you are engaged in music, and are interested in the 'why' of it. That, as you probably know, is what keeps us vital- that inquisitiveness, and willingness to be open to new/different. End of kumbaya. I do have fun with this stuff and am always learning, even if it is "re-learning" what I thought I already knew. regards, bill hart
You must have a verified phone number and physical address in order to post in the Audiogon Forums. Please return to Audiogon.com and complete this step. If you have any questions please contact Support.
