2. misc-audio
  3. 133937-1445

Finding the 'weakest link' when upgrading?

Being able to find the weakest link when upgrading is really, really important.
Otherwise a different new component may never really be able to show how it is better. Since the other ’weak’ component(s) is(are) masking the new components better sound.

This is a difficult problem.

My best example is not exactly about the least sound quality, but it may show something about it.
I upgraded a good portion of my equipment all at once when I retired. And I still had in my system an old DAC I bought used. When I received most of the new components (including new preamp, new amp, new speakers and a new turntable and cartridge), I was comparing my old DAC with the new one. And found no sonic difference. I mean I tried every way I could and could not hear any difference between them/ So either I just wasted $25,000 for nothing or?? I was very frustrated.
Anyway, after three weeks I got another new bit which had to be ordered and built
.
When I plugged in the phono box, an epiphany and a flood ot tears.. My $25,000 of new equipment really was better. Since the phono box sounded glorious, thus it made it clear all the rest of the system WAS NOT holding back the new DAC. That new DAC was actually just not any better than my old one. And I returned it.

And unless I just happened to acquire that new phono box a week later, I would have been stumped why the new DAC (which was praised to the skies by both Stereophile and TAS) was not doing better.
I was seriously bummed and confused about wasting a ton of money... until I played the new phono box.

Now it was kind of odd that the two DACs, one, used for $250 )it’ original list price was $1,000) and the other $2,400 and 12 years newer) could sound so alike. But chance happened. (And toss in the official guru magazine praise with it all)
==================================================================

Anyway, how do we find the right part to upgrade? Since making the wrong choice can leave one in the same boat I was in back in my example? (at least until I got the phono box)

I do not have an answer. and I ask.. does anyone?
For me it is just kind of a sixth sense, with little real science to it.

In general I have been kind of lucky.
But how do I know I have managed well?

I do not know.
It has been better more often than not.
(Though I have made a few really terrible choices over many years now and then. Costly choices)

Anyway, my question is how do you make the choice of what to upgrade?
How do you know or decide which is you weakest component?

And do you agree finding the weakest component is really important in the path of upgrading, or one might be making expensive mistakes buying gear, or trying gear? (which may really be great, yet you cannot hear it due to some other weak links in the chain? And though I hate to say so, this weak link may even be cables, or powercords or even the AC from the wall*.

*(but please do not get into a big theory arguments about interconnects and powercords and power conditioners.) Stick to the main topic of knowing how to find the weakest link.
elizabeth

Showing 4 responses by timlub

timlub
1,649 posts
 
In My Experience, the components tend to make a difference in the following order:
Speakers
Preamp
Amplifier
Table, Arm, Cartridge
Cables
Dac...... 
I have found that once you get to a certain level in Dacs that there is not near as much difference as in any of the other components..... Maybe cables. 
Yes,  there are differences in Dacs and differences in Cables,  but there is a point where once the reach a certain level,  the differences are minor or a matter of taste.  Maybe the way to put it is..... There is less difference between 2 well designed Dacs at say $500 and $3000 or $4000 that there would be between a $500 Preamp, Amp or speakers vs that $3000 plus component. 

I suspect if I remember right you were using an old Adcom DAC?... Maybe not,  but I suspect that your Dac was of the level that the differences were not night and day.  I have built 3 Dacs with 3 different Dac chips,  they all perform admirably,  they don't sound the same, but they are all very good performers. 
timlub
1,649 posts
 
Hi Elizabeth,  Sorry, yep, I took you a bit off subject.  I was thinking that that was the order that could make the biggest difference in your system, so when you asked about the weakest link, I was thinking what might make the biggest change,  sorry, my bad. 
As far as the Adcom,  I knew that you had switched to the Bryston, I was actually thinking that you had an old Adcom GDA600 or GDA700 DAC. 
Then I mentioned the differences in Dac's being smaller to accent why you might have found little or no difference between Dac's. 
I missed you posting for quite some time,  glad to see you back!
timlub
1,649 posts
 
Well Elizabeth,  I owe you a big apology, I've got your thread Hi Jacked and off on another tangent. I'll respond once and then ask others to open another thread if you'd like to take it further.... 
This whole thing that there aren't performance differences between DAC's.... Where did that come from?  Seems like my words were really twisted.  
So, what I said was "on well designed Dacs"  that the differences are less than that of different designs of amps/preamps etc.... 
I still stand by that.  
Take a EE Dac Mini, A Holo Spring, A Soekris, An Ares, Denafrips and I'm sure others that I haven't thought of.... Great Dacs in their own right.  All Affordable Dacs that would not be embarrassed in any system.  Can you hear a difference, OF COURSE! 
I have myself sat in front of many systems with other people... On person says, "The Difference is Hugh"  another says,  "I can hear it"  
I feel like that when someone wants to hear things that they do and as our ears become more refined over the years that yes,  one person is capable of picking nuances that another may not.  
@douglas_schroeder    Doug,  I read your reviews,  you've earned my respect,  but I have also been in or around audio for 39 years and have rubbed shoulders with granted old timers, but none the less with some of the industry greats.  I've heard many many systems and have come to KNOW that I don't have tin ears and have not needed to question my own judgement for many years. As I stated here,  I think that its easy to over state what HUGE is.  
@bar81   No one said that All DAC's sound the same... 
Again,  On Well Designed Equipment............ 
My own current DAC is a DIY ES9018 DAC... It was ok,  I was a bit disappointed and took it to my old friend Ed Martin from Marcof.  He built a filter network and regulation for the power supply and absolutely transformed this DAC. I would have no fear putting it in any system and being embarrassed, but I'm not delusional that many top notch DACs would outperform it to some degree.... So, not being embarrassed???? are the differences Huge?  To one person yes, maybe,  but to another,  "I can hear a difference".  

timlub
1,649 posts
 
@mikexxyz       Mike,  you hit send to post your response right before my last response,  thank you,  well said. 

So,  @Elizabeth .... I contend that the only way to really know the weak link in your system is to know you.... your taste,  what is warm, what is airy, what is dry, what is smooth, what is detailed etc.... Then learning each component and the merits or short comings in your system,  Only at that point can you make truly "Educated Guesses" at what the week link in your system is.  I think all of us have made costly choice or maybe have kicked ourselves for selling a component.  Nature of the beast with this hobby.  You've been at this along time yourself.  I wish there was a formula to follow,  wouldn't that be nice.  I'd love to hear anyone has that formula. 
More to discover