Thanks Mike for your insight, the Rockport Sirius III is indeed a unique turntable and deserves all the accolades it has received over the years. Andy Payor makes some of the most amazing products in the audiophile business. It also retailed for 3-4X the GPA Monaco. Knowing that you had the Monaco in your system to compare it would be highly appreciated if you could share some of your thoughts.
PS: sure miss reading your old system thread, I much appreciate reading your opinions and experiences.
Henry |
Robert, exactly my experience. I thought that Roy Gregory did a fantastic job in reviewing the GP Monaco, very unlike an earlier review published in the US, which was so NOT representative of the GPM's capabilities. This review underlines what an incredible turntable Alvin and his team have put together that basically plays so right.
I'm only recently starting to understand by listening to old technology based high-end tables what kind of colorations many of our dear traditional audiophile friends have gotten used to. |
It's interesting to note that despite the clear measurable technological superiority of the Monaco table (speed stability and resonance control), certain people, including one industry expert, try and attribute coloration to its design.
The coloration heard is that of the combined associated equipment choices made that suit a personal taste and put in an environment optimzed to that personal flavor. Even the standard reference vinyl used will obviously sound different because they were never heard with such speed stabilty until played through the Monaco.
Recently I had the opportuntity to listen to the top VPI with Koetsu Urushi on the Verity Lohengrin II's driven by top Accuphase (A-45, C-2810) top MIT cables retailing at $250.000+! This table was easily beaten by the Accuphase DP800/DC801 combo. It would not have made me a vinyl convert. If I didn't have the Monaco, I would have used this experience as a reason NOT to get into vinyl.
But I realize too that if you like sugar in your tea, or music, its difficult to change. Here's my analogy. Kinda like stopping smoking, until you do it you don't really know how good food and fine wine really tastes!
Keep on spinning! |
It's interesting to note that despite the clear measurable technological superiority of the Monaco table (speed stability and resonance control), certain people, including one industry expert, try and attribute coloration to its design.
The coloration heard is that of the combined associated equipment choices made that suit a personal taste and put in an environment optimzed to that personal flavor. Even the standard reference vinyl used will obviously sound different because they were never heard with such speed stabilty until played through the Monaco.
Recently I had the opportuntity to listen to the top VPI with Koetsu Urushi on the Verity Lohengrin II's driven by top Accuphase (A-45, C-2810) top MIT cables retailing at $250.000+! This table was easily beaten by the Accuphase DP800/DC801 combo. It would not have made me a vinyl convert. If I didn't have the Monaco, I would have used this experience as a reason NOT to get into vinyl.
But I realize too that if you like sugar in your tea, or music, its difficult to change. Here's my analogy. Kinda like stopping smoking, until you do it you don't really know how good food and fine wine really tastes!
Keep on spinning! |
Pieppiper, there is only ONE absolute measure of speed stability (ie the correct speed, the exact time it takes to go from a to b), and that is only correctly measured at the platter, and that is errors per million measurements. No rocket science degree required here. No other turntable measures speed accuracy at the platter level, so any claim to a speed accuracy figure is nul-and-void because its unverifiable. Now, when the GPA Monaco claims a maximum of 2 speed errors per 1 million measurements it means appr. 20 mintes of vinyl playback can be played without errors as Roy Gregory explained. It would be interesting to measure all other top tables out there with the same technology, I'll bet ya, they'd all fare miserably against the Monaco due to their older, lower performing technologies. And how does this best of speed stabilities express itself? Well in the most accurate and truest playback through the entire - yes entire - audio bandwidth as it was recorded and transferred to the vinyl disc. That is not coloration due to the Monaco. Coloration comes from all the other attached equipment, and resonances that impacts measurable speed stability. IMO therefore the Monaco is the MOST admirable attempt to date and audibly so.
I agree with you that this measurable technological superiority is indeed a starting point, for Grand Prix Audio turntable design and hopefully all tt designers, imagine the improvements on this table GPA have in store! The rest of the comptetition better start waking up to a new champ, you know what they say about betting on old horses... shake up old paradigms! |
Teres Certus 460 looks like a nice piece of furniture for my grandfathers living room. But keeping to the discussion, those speed accuracy figures they publish are probably not measured at the platter level. Just for fun I will ask Teres this very question and see what they say. No comment about the Technics, other than I purchased 2 of them 20+ odd years ago for a friend who needed them as a discjockey for parties, you know the kind of music/rap you need to scratch to back in the 80s...
No, a great test would be, independent of course, in a top system against the Continuum Caliburn and/or RT Sirius III, but with multiple experts present. |
Raul, I agree with you entirely. Now that you read the review, wouldn't it be
interesting to learn what that would sound like in your rig? Btw, for future
reference, at www.hifiplus.com you can buy an eMagazine version of any issue,
and other backissues.
Fcrowder, that is another beauty of this turntable the power from the wall is not
used to drive the platter! The power of a small battery would work too! It uses
5V DC and thus no influence from dirty power, no impact from power cords or
conditioning systems. I tried, Gutwire, Siltech, PS Audio, and no difference from
my stock $1.99 supermarket cord. |
Piepdpiper, its actually the amazingly common sense of the Monaco design concepts that made me a believer. But it wasn't until I listened to the table for about half a year that it truely convinced me to order one. Every table I listened to afterwards, more expensive (ie Walker), less expensive (ie VPI) fell in some way short of impressing my ears. You, should judge for yourself though. As I see it, it would not be your cup of tea, you're more of a sound from tubes & platter-pulled-by-a-string kinda guy. The full benefits of a Monaco might not show up in your current setup anyway. Next time you visit Albert ask him what he thought of the Monaco, he didn't want to say anything on the Gon on his own page. He too is aware of the power of his opinion, but I'm sure he'd tell you in private.
And pls NO MORE Japanese DD from the 70s! The world really has moved on since then...believe me, it has, just like EVERYTHING else on this planet. |
Well said Jonathan, Alvin is going to post the HiFi+ review on his website too.
Henry |
Les Creative Edge, your user name would suggest an appreciation for technological advance. Moon rockets, even you have to admit that todays space exploration is more advanced than back in the 60s/70s. Sure we can reach the moon today as we did then, but faster, safer, do more research, using smaller crafts and with more precision. We all foot that huge bill (by paying taxes), its the advance of human kind. The technology of the Monaco is kind of like that, an advance in vinyl music reproduction that didn't exist before. Now, net present value $20k back to your 1979 DD turntable, I wouldn't be surprised if the consumer cost would be all that different. |
I appreciate the discussion, the only way to know is to hear, no matter how much experience. And then there are differences in taste. I go for truest reproduction of the recording event and ability to play ANY kind of music well.
Btw the DV507 came out in 1984 and was updated by the Mk II in 2006. Analog picking order for me was 1. the Monaco tt, 2. the XV-1s cartridge and it only made common sense to take the DV507MkII as 3. the arm.
The March 2008 HiFi+ front cover headlines: "Grand Prix Redefines Turntable Sound" and who am I to disagree with these veteran experts. I guess it helps when welknown experts also hear what I heard after I made my purchase... |
I am someone indeed... and have no commercial interests either...and have a little experience too...AND A STRONG OPINION TO BOOT
RAUL, I wish I could meet you in the flesh...we shqre a passion, I could learn a lot from you!
Tonite its my wifes vinyl vault...Jean Michel Jarre original 80s grooves, oh how the Monaco/Dynavector shines... still putting digital to shame...
Enjoy! |
Fcrowder, I've only had it on my Finite Elemente Pagode Master Reference rack. However, all the time I have heard the Monaco at my dealer (Transparent Music Systems) before I purchased one it was on top of a Monaco Grand Prix rack with a racing shelve and apex feet. It was IMHO the best match for the Monaco tt, unlike Mr Fremers experience, it made the table even more quiet and articulate, the pace was right on, supporting the strengths of the Monaco. To date I have not heard that excellent kind of playback in my system yet, although its the same as my dealer's, and I think it's partly due to the Monaco Rack system. The difference is mostly in the lesser details of the recording ambience, and detail cues of the recording space that I am still lacking...
Hope this helps you. |
For those interested in the GPA Monaco turntable review. Here's the link:
http://grandprixaudio.com/Roy-Gregorys-Review-of-the-Monaco-Turntable.pdf |
Sirspeedy, Mike, thanks for sharing and commenting on that interesting article
by Peter Montcrieff...it is pretty longwinded, but very relevant and informative
(especially to me being new to this) and to be continued too! Didn't read
anything about the Sirius III technology in it as the title might have suggested.
In the end my takeaway is that all belt tt's have no hope in hell to ever achieving
timing right, which leaves us with direct drive. Which in turns leads us to the GPA
Monaco and Alvin's unique implementation on speed control. Would any of you
care to comment on the differences in say, the Technics SP10, Rockport Sirius III
and GPA Monaco on how they deal with this? Or point to some discussion
happening elsewhere on the web.
Many thanks! |
Aaron, I agree with what you state ... off centre LPs are for sure not a positive impact on perfect vinyl playback. But if you compound that imperfection with other imperfect engineering solutions, there's simply even more distortion upon distortion. So all solutions have to start with the best engineering choices we have available. The extend of their implementation success is also impacted by other things. But it would certainly help if LPs were all truly cut perfectly as it would help if records were recorded better (better equipment, better recording engineers, better music). |
Downunder, nice historical titbit there ... the Dragon cassette player was a classic also! |
