Hear my Cartridges....🎶

Victors:

Well, I am not prepared to say which is the best by listening to only one recording this way, but I am pretty comfortable saying which is my favorite: The X-1IIE. My least favorite: the X-1II

With both the X-1 and X-1II high frequencies sound overly prominent to the point of distraction and with excessive sibilance on the vocals. I like the X-1 very much for its very naturally colorful midrange. With the X1IIE the midrange is also naturally colorful, but high frequencies are much better controlled and balanced. Possibly as a result of this, vocals and the midrange in general sound fuller and more natural.

Love it Frogman.......👌
I could read your descriptions all day long.....🗣
I’m off to buy some more cartridges to keep your contributions coming..

Don´t get me wrong, I just found my ML-180 outperforming all the MM AT´s I have tried over the years, hence my expression bad. The same goes for my statement about TOTL ACUTEX models, they are superb performers as you have discovered too.  But not magical IME. And there may very well be a subtle difference between the samples. 

That X-1IIE with titanium pipe cantilever and Shibata stylus ?

Victor X-1 and X-1II have Beryllium/Shibata whilst X-1IIE has Titanium hollow pipe cantilever and nude Elliptical stylus. 

Harold, I don’t doubt it at all and as we all know system context is very important. Curious, have you tried the AT 150 that the 180 was compared to? I haven’t owned either one, but would consider purchasing the 150 if I can find one; I think it would be a good fit in my system. BTW, I agree with you re the Acutex; I like it very much, but I wouldn’t call it magical either. Regards.

We heard previously how my cheapest vintage (NOS) MM cartridge (Victor 4MD-20X) compares to my most expensive LOMC (AS Palladian).

We certainly can't expect a 'shock' result at this scale.....but I can still happily listen to the 4MD-20X all day long....🤗

The question remains though......how close to the Mega-Buck LOMCs can cheap vintage MMs actually come?
The Signet MR-5.0 LC is an interesting cartridge......
It sports a nude Line Contact stylus on a Beryllium cantilever just like the Signet TK-7LCa, but why have the two models especially when the parent company have their own competition with the AT-180ML.....?

AS PALLADIAN LOMC Cartridge
Mounted in SAEC WE-8000/ST ToneArm on solid Bronze ArmPod surrounding Vintage Victor TT-101 DD Turntable

GARROTT P77 MM Cartridge with Jico Neo-SAS(R) Stylus
Mounted in DV-507/II on solid Bronze ArmPod surrounding Vintage Victor TT-101 DD Turntable

SIGNET MR5.0 LC MM Cartridge
Mounted in DV-507/II on solid Bronze ArmPod surrounding Vintage Victor TT-101 DD Turntable

Frogman, many years ago I had the AT-ANV150 and it truly was excellent, very very balanced sound, the high register in particular, one of the very finest I have experienced. But it lacked something in the mid range, detail and nuances. I never went excited with so after a hundred hour play I decided to sell it, for a good price.

But it was better than my AT-ML180 in the high register. I started to wonder why that AT´s flagship w/ a very special stylus tip and ceramic top lacks finesse in high frequency area... maybe there was something wrong with my set-up. Finally I thought that ML180 may benefit from extra damping and it did, as seen here:

https://ucarecdn.audiogon.com/e830b57c-0609-4c78-bca4-d41b9402cbda/-/autorotate/yes/

Now its high register is the same league as ANV150´s. Still, however it lacks the magic I have heard with certain others.

My buddy in Norway has covered the whole body of his DECCA Jubilee with that damping material, he says that makes a huge difference : )
Image a dark gray blanket on the Jubilee, looks so funny but not for everyone´s taste : )
So both AT-ML180 and the Jubilee benefit from extra damping in certain systems. And it´s a well known fact that the DECCA carts need well damped arms.

The AT-ANV150 will fit your system just fine, I believe. Also Audio-Technica´s latest technology VM760 is worth to try:
https://www.audio-technica.com/cms/cartridges/6637a2f0787470c3/index.html

I have always disliked AT carts, including Signet even when I could get them for free .
A good friend of mine whose ear I trust told me the ATVM540ML was coherent top to bottom , better than VM750 .I went over with demo LP’s in hand to school him about his $250 cartridge .

He took me to school , 540 is all of that, by far best AT I ever heard .His TT is a Rega 8 which is formidable .

Interesting Schubert....
Maybe it's System Synergy as Frogman says.....?
Do you have Tube or SS amplification?

But it lacked something in the mid range, detail and nuances.

I agree Harold.....

Halcro, I have both tube and SS amps and pre-amps . Speakers often like one combo or the other , no doubt impedance matching of entire system IMO . I agree 1000% with frogman on the Synergy . Both the fun and PITA
of the audio hobby aka addiction .

The 450 was mounted on a friends Rega P8 , the fabulous 880 arm on that jewel no doubt had something to do with it . He is also a master of TT set-up as well .In any event it did what needed to be done quite well for $250 .Natch, there is always something better .

I had hoped that Frogman would have divulged his analysis on the previous test......🤗

Let's try a different approach.....

If the $10,000 AS Palladian LOMC Cartridge is taken as the 'Benchmark' (in my system).....how close can cheaper cartridges get to it...?

The Palladian is a beautifully built modern Meg-Buck LOMC cartridge that owes much to the Classic Vintage Fidelity Research FR-7 Series of cartridges from 35 years ago.
Instead of the current 'fad' for Boron cantilevers.... the Palladian utilises an aluminium one with a nude Fine-Line stylus in a 'bush-hammered' Titanium body.

The Vintage Signet TK-7LCa MM Cartridge utilises a Beryllium cantilever with a nude Line Contact stylus.
The Signet can be had for approx. $600-$800 NOS on Ebay (if one is patient enough).

Here you can decide if $9,200 price differential is worth it....🤔

AS PALLADIAN LOMC Cartridge
Mounted in Vintage SAEC WE-8000/ST ToneArm on solid Bronze ArmPod surrounding Vintage Victor TT-101 DD Turntable.

VINTAGE SIGNET TK-7LCa MM Cartridge
Mounted in DV-507/II ToneArm on solid Bronze ArmPod surrounding Vintage Victor TT-101 DD Turntable.

Sorry to disappoint, halcro.  I promise some thoughts on all by the end of the weekend.  Best to all.

Looking forward to them Frogman....😎

Regards

Palladian/Garrott/MR5:

Not sure how one could quantify “how close” an inexpensive cartridge can come to the sound of the Palladian, but the Palladian is clearly in a different league than the other two.  It gives a much bigger dose of the natural timbre of instruments.  The sound of the triangle is an obvious one.  With the P it has an appropriate metallic brilliance and one hears a longer decay of its ring.  Other percussion instruments also sound more realistic.  With the Garrott it’s hard to tell that it is a cowbell being played.  With the P it is obvious.  One also hears more of the snap of the hand on the conga drum along with more of its woody timbre.

The MR5 gets closer to the level of the P than the Garrott which makes high frequency sounds too covered and dull.  The MR5 also sounds too covered by comparison, but less so.  Neither approach the level of overall clarity that the P has. 

Palladian/TK-7:

Holy Grail recording and one of my favorites.  Great recording and performance of this beautiful music.

Well, as with the Decca, I’m not prepared to say that the Palladian sounds $9,000 better than the less expensive cartridge; but, it sure sounds a lot better.  In fact, probably due to the more demanding nature of this music, I would say that I hear more of a disparity between the overall sound of the Palladian and that of the TK-7 than I did between the Palladian and the MR5 playing Marvin Gaye.

Right from the first woodwind chords one hears better clarity of timbre with the Palladian.  The TK-7 actually sounds as if it is on the verge of mistracking on the opening woodwinds with a hint of distortion at the end of each phrase where the winds play loudest.  The harp sounds much more realistic and one hears the correct urgency in the way that the player plays the arpeggios that answer the woodwinds.  The harp sounds beautiful with the Palladian; much more realistic color.  Not only is there more clarity in the upper range of the instrument, but notice to how the single plucked low notes on the left hand sound much more realistically resonant and one actually hears the decay of the sound of the vibrating string.  The clarinet player’s wonderful phrasing is much more clear in its subtle pushes and pull backs of the tempo.  With the TK-7 that phrasing and the overall musical energy seems more subdued.  The massed strings sound fabulous with the Palladian.  They sound good and beautifully full with the TK-7, but not quite as natural and I hear a similar effect as with the opening winds: as if it is on the verge of mistracking and a hint of distortion is heard in the loudest passages. 

The Palladian sounds like a killer cartridge.  Is it $9000 better?  I don’t know, but for the difference in price it should sound better...a lot better.  Speaking for myself, if I had it and the TK-7, while I like the TK-7 a lot it would spend a lot more time in the cartridge drawer than the Palladian.

Thanks for letting us hear these fabulous cartridges.  Listening was done on my Stax/tube driver set.

Excuse my ignorance, what´s that ` Ö` beautiful edition/pressing exactly ?

It's the rightly famous RCA Victor release of "The Royal Ballet" Gala Performances conducted by Ernest Ansermet.
No music lover should be without a copy....
HERE 

Good Golly Frogman......
I told you I didn't regret purchasing the Palladian.....😁
Perhaps I've been wrong all these years in thinking that the very best vintage MM cartridges of yesteryear can play on the same field as the best modern MCs......?

I'm determined though.....to use your ears (if you don't mind).....to tell me exactly which of my MM cartridges come closest to possessing the abilities of the Palladian in one-on-one 'Shoot-Outs'.

Before I do that though.....I'd like your opinion of how a vintage LOMC like the JMAS MIT-1 compares to the Palladian.

I just bought a wonderful piano recording of the 'Beethoven Appasionata' which was described by the Seller on Discogs as 'Very Good+' condition.
As you will hear...the disc has been 'churned' by some scalpel-like stylus and is going back to whence it came....🤬

AS PALLADIAN LOMC Cartridge
Mounted in Vintage SAEC WE-8000/ST ToneArm on solid Bronze ArmPod surrounding Vintage Victor DD Turntable

JMAS MIT-1 LOMC Cartridge
Mounted in Vintage SAEC WE-8000/ST ToneArm on solid Bronze ArmPod surrounding Vintage Victor DD Turntable

A couple of additional facts re this wonderful recording which, as halcro points out, should be a must-own for audiophiles. If one is to own only one recording of Classical music this one is definitely one to consider as the one. The pedigree of this recording is immaculate with associated names that should be familiar to all audiophiles who care about such matters:

The music is “Waltz Of The Flowers” from Tchaikovsky’ “Nutcracker” Ballet. The recording engineer was the legenday Kenneth Wilkinson who engineered so many of the great Decca/London recordings and it took place at London’s Kingsway Hall one of the best concert halls in the world. This one was licensed by RCA/Victor from Decca for its premium “Soria” series. In my experience any recording made by Wilkinson is worth owning if only for its sound.

Halcro, you flatter me and I confess to feeling a bit uncomfortable being the arbiter of which is best. This has been educational for me and I am glad to, time allowing, continue to offer my thoughts as my honest impressions and opinions only; while acknowledging that we all have at least somewhat different priorities and preferences when it comes to sound and that system context and the limitations of this methodology needs to be taken into account.

I don’t think that you “(have) been wrong all these years in thinking that the very best vintage MM cartridges of yesteryear can play on the same field as the best modern MCs”. No two cartridges will sound the same; often, not even two different samples of the same cartridge.  The fact that a vintage MM can compete at all with a $10,000 modern MC is kind of miraculous.  Detectable subtle differences favoring one cartridge or another don’t invalidate or diminish what they each do at least very well. I have to assume that since you don’t regret purchasing the $10,000 Palladian that you hear something in its sound that justifies the price disparity. I know that if didn’t hear any advantage that I would regret having spent the money. “Same playing field”? That one is tricky. If there were no differences in the sound between a cartridge like the Palladian and the Signet then the price discrepancy would not be justified. I have no doubt that there are many high priced MC’s that don’t sound, overall, as good as the Signet.

Thanks again.

Judging from the ’views’.........there is quiet a bit of interest in the vintage Victor MM cartridges (and the London Decca Reference 😎).
The X-1 range of Victors are almost ’unobtanium’ and replacement styli are generally unavailable or unsatisfactory.
The Z1 Victors however are plentiful on the used market and are ’dirt’ cheap.
Jico makes a range of replacement styli for them with the SAS or Neo-SAS being the best (if they ever come into production again).

The Z1/SAS is a real challenger for the X-1.....😃

AS PALLADIAN LOMC Cartridge
Mounted in Vintage SAEC WE-8000/ST ToneArm on solid Bronze ArmPod surrounding Vintage Victor TT-101 Turntable

VICTOR Z1/SAS Vintage MM Cartridge
Mounted in Vintage SAEC WE-8000/ST ToneArm on solid Bronze ArmPod surrounding Vintage Victor TT-101 Turntable

On my phone. Simon and Garfunkle sound more live with the Victor. The MC sounds more colorful initially ...until it just sounds colored and somewhat recessed. The MM is like opening the windows and hearing the live sound.

I hear something similar to you Noromance......
This could be interesting....🧐

Although on listening to both again......I don’t really know 🤔
The sound on my iPad is not quite what I hear ‘live’....?
Will be interesting to see what Frogman thinks......

Catching up to you guys. Listened on my Stax/tube set.

Palladian/MIT:

Once again, I wish I could say that the less expensive cartridge (MIT) sounds as good as the Palladian, but I just don’t hear it that way. They both sound very good, but the Palladian refuses to add extra body to the midrange/lower mids. The first minute or so of the recording tells the whole story:

From the very first notes of the piece one hears a little less false roundness to the left hand (lows) of the piano with the Palladian; a good thing. The MIT sounds slightly (!) tubby by comparison while the Palladian lets one hear more of the natural resonance and decay of low notes. Partly as a result of this the mids sound a little less incisive with the MIT; sounding, again, a little too round without as much natural leading edge. As always, the extra thickness obscures musical performance detail. The most obvious difference can be heard beginning at around :50 in the “forte” chord passages and with the sharply struck individual high notes. On demanding passages the MIT’s character seems to change dramatically (relatively) and almost sounds like a not particularly good upright piano instead of a good grand. It starts to sound clangy and almost metallic. Not good. The Palladian remains much more “composed” without strain or hint of mistracking which may be the reason for the clangy quality that the MIT exhibits on loud passages.

Palladian/Victor:

I agree with noromance that the Palladian sounds recessed by comparison. However, I’m not sure that I would agree that it sounds “colored” compared to the Palladian. “Colored” means different things to different listeners and to me the Palladian sounds closer to what I might hear during a live performance. I think that the “recessed” quality of the Palladian is simply the way it was recorded and the extra midrange juice of the Victor may be pushing things forward a bit for a seemingly less recessed quality. Much of what was heard in the Palladian/MIT comparison applies, but even more so. The Victor (most of the Victors, so far) have a very juicy midrange/lower mids that, while very attractive, is not necessarily the most natural and is, in fact, what I would call “colored”.

Even before the tune begins we can hear a difference in the tonal character of each cartridge. The audience sounds sound slightly muffled with the Victor. Then, listen to the introductory guitar accompaniment. Notice how much “bigger” the single low note that starts each measure of the ostinato guitar line is; almost as if it is being played by a different and larger instrument. That low note should have the same tonal character as the upper notes and sound more like a natural and integrated part of the musical line as heard with the Palladian. Then, when the bass enters things get a little too thick and borderline boomy for me and all that extra juice obscures some of the beautifully simple vocal harmonies.

As always, taking into account the limitations of listening this way and possible system synergy issues, I think that the Palladian is a kicka$$ cartridge. It is amazing that far less expensive cartridges can compete in any way, but still....no free rides, as they say.  I also think that being used to the terrible leanness and lack of natural tonal body of much “audiophile”-pedigree sound it is easy to be seduced by components that possibly swing too far in the opposite direction. As with most things, the truth is usually in the middle.

Thanks, all.

**** However, I’m not sure that I would agree that it sounds “colored” compared to the Palladian ****

Should read:

**** However, I’m not sure that I would agree that it (Palladian) sounds “colored” compared to the Victor ****

Sorry.

Interesting notes @frogman . 
I'm recovering from illness so not able to listen through my digital rig. 
By colored I mean that I can hear a color superimposed over the recording like a thin veil. I know it's probably an odd description and perception.  Once I detect it in a setup, I hear it with every recording. Whether there are frequency response variations in the MM, I don't really notice on the phone but now I'm curious. Nevertheless, it sounds clearer and more live and exciting.

Your ears need to be insured for millions 💰Frogman....
Whilst I was recording the Victor Z1/SAS....I could clearly hear in my room....the "extra midrange juice of the Victor" that you picked up.
After recording it.....I realised that I had left the loading of the MM cartridge at 40K Ohms instead of the 60K Ohms that the Victors like...🥴

On playback however....through my iPad.....I heard it like Noromance did, with a richness that seemed to have an advantage over the Palladian so I uploaded it like that.....

I think we need to get ourselves ears like Frogman, Noromance......or at least try to get the same Stax/tube set....👅

It'll be interesting to see what you hear through your digital rig Noromance?
You listen on Tidal don't you?

Your ears can be just as good as frogman’s, our walking encyclopedia on all thinks musical .

First step is to listen to live acoustic music for about 60, 000 hours , maybe 50,000 if you do the playing and either way take Music Theory 101-102 at a
university School of Music at the same time .You can read the 4-500
musical history books at home in your spare time .

😄