Elizabeth! You have solved a problem that has been plaguing me for months. The stereo in the bedroom would play during a lightning storm, but once the storm died down, the music stopped.
Now that it is plugged into POWERCORDS, it plays most all the time. That is, until lightning comes again, then the sparks fly and it falls silent again. What is with this system? |
70242.241. So are you inferring that the stock power cord on my new Sony 9000 ES, which was an 18 gauge, is sufficient enough that replacing it with a high quality power cord ( 12 gauge?) from Purist Audio will not affect the performance? |
Stevenmj, I think a more accurate analogy would be to say that my car ran better because the fuel line size was increased, and therefore provided less resistance and lag time in supplying the energy source to the engine under high demand.
Your analogy (at best) would only represents the amount of time required to fill the fuel tank. And of course, this has no affect on final performance, unless there was an engine that used energy faster than it could be pumped in. |
Stevemj and 702. Until you actually plug a cable into a player like mine and have valid comments about such, I am going to do my best to ignore you. We have beat this topic to death in one way or another on multiple posts. We have literally devoted thousands of words to this and have arrived at exactly where we began.
You and 702 come here to fight, I come to learn about music. There are always people like you who know so much that they have their mind made up before they even begin. You definitely fall into that category. You will eventually learn that there are reasons that cables perform differently, and there may even be a scientific explanation for it (someday).
Until then, I am content with the high performance music that real life experience and long term listening has provided. You will remain content, fighting over theory and numbers. I got the better end of the deal. Your system, based on what you post here, sounds terrible. That should be punishment enough for you, it certainly would be an unacceptable experience for me. |
Stevemj. I am not opposed to ideas, only to comments that scientific evidence is necessary to prove that something works. I am very confident of my hearing and the results of my testing. I think that if those of you that disagree that power cords make a difference could hear a test on my system, you would understand. The differences are so dramatic, that even within a large group of listeners, there is no doubt as to the change.
I never claim that only one (certain) power cord or interconnect is the perfect answer. In fact, differences in power cords are sometime inconsistent between one piece of equipment and another. I have no explanation for this, I only know it that is audible, repeatable and difficult to explain. My wish is that those of you that are driven toward the scientific method could find instruments that measure what many of us are hearing. Both sides would have a better understanding and perhaps these methods could assist with design that current technology cannot address.
I don't expect to ever solve all the problems of reproduction of music as it is far too complex. However, the person who asserts that a particular product cannot possibly make a difference, has no chance of solving these problems, because they close their mind to the opportunity of learning something new.
My rejection of ABX or double blind testing, is not because I dismiss this testing procedure for all things, but rather because it is not applicable to a complicated music system. Power cables in my system (as a specific example) radically change sound simply by picking up a cable and letting it drop to the floor. The same disturbance occurs when I gently pick up my amp to change an isolation device under it.
No other mechanical or electrical change is required, the amp may simply be picked up and set back down with the same disruption of sound. The return to the original sound requires from five to fifteen minutes. Such strange behavior from wire is why I consider it impossible to do ABX testing. Humans cannot ignore this initial change (moving the equip) and confuse that first impression with (being) the final result. Worse, by switching multiple times in a single evening, to equalize the ABX test, the cable is disrupted so often, it is never totally correct.
I wish you and 702 lived close enough to do a relaxed listening session with me. It would be a slow process, because I am likewise convinced that we are all affected by the presence (and attitude) of a new visitor/listener as well. In the end, I am certain there would be little to disagree about, provided we stayed the course with the music and the possibility of learning. |
Thank you Trelja for relating your experience. These musicians went into this test with healthy scepticism, and were drawn closer to the performance by the (unexpected) improvement.
This appears to be identical to what many of us experience with pre recorded media in our audio systems. In either case, getting closer to the music is an experience that you won't give up, once you have a taste. |
I regret that I am limited to only a +2 +2 award for the above post by Jadem6. |
Jhunter, if you are married and I blindfold you, are you certain you can identify a kiss from your life long partner? It would make the experience even more difficult with a room full of people waiting on the outcome while you sat in darkness.
Maybe to make things even more difficult, you could put a clothes pin on your nose, and wear latex gloves. That way, you are so involved in the test and thinking about all the accoutrements, that you prove only that you are unaccustomed to this new experience in your failure. If you prefer testing the test, or enjoy proving that multiple confusing situations can make humans error, your method is great.
Judging your responses, you must not have auditioned any quality aftermarket cords in your own system. If you had, you would not be discussing tests, but rather contributing to this forum with your experiences and what worked for you.
I do not understand those who visit this site, primarily based on discussion of the tools needed to improve a stereo, then proceed to argue that the tools do not matter. Perhaps you cannot hear the difference in your system, and therefore find comfort in dismissing the experiences of others.
Therefore, I also issue a challenge. I would be pleased to host a session at my home, and I am willing for as many members of Audiogon to be included as will comfortably fit into my listening room. I can assure at least three members from the manufacturing side of the audio community to be here, as well as last years Grammy award winner for classical music.
Our test will be simply to first listen to my system with all Purist Audio Dominus cables for a few hours and acclimate everyone to the sound and become comfortable with the environment. Next, I remove all of the Purist Cables, and replace them with the factory supplied cords. If you can honestly say that the sound is the same in both situations, you will find yourself the only one in the room that comes to that conclusion.
No blindfold is needed, no switching back and forth required. It is a very simple test. Perhaps the money you put up for your test in CA could be used to purchase an economy ticket to Dallas via Southwest Airlines. I will gladly pick you up at the airport and buy dinner. |
Jhunter. You are certainly welcome to listen here anytime you are available. Advance notice of a few days would help, and I am willing to pick you up at the airport and treat you to dinner.
My reason for assuming that audio tools are not important to you, is due to the challenge you made to everyone here at Audiogon. Primarily, your obvious pre assumption of failure for all of the aftermarket power cords. Further, by injecting money into the equation, you set a mood of smugness in your certainly as to the end result of the tests. Your procedures are another ABX topic with a softer sell, and is a subject that has been declared off limits by Audiogon as counter productive to the discussions of advancing music systems.
This is of course, why I made an alternate offer. It is elegant in it's simplicity, and does away with the problems of cycling equipment, multiple movement of the cables, and undue pressure on the listeners. I have faith, that even knowing in advance which cable is which, you will not be biased to choose only the stock wire. If you arrive with an open mind and audition once each way, in a relaxed atmosphere, you will conclude that high performance power cables not only work, but are essential to the system.
My concerns regarding your equipment is natural, considering the experience of myself and others in my group ( including the Grammy award winner ). Our gains were so dramatic, as to be impossible to ignore. I assumed that you either never auditioned any high end power cables, or your system failed to reveal the improvement to you. If you have experimented with these products, your opinion certainly brings into question the validity of your system to serve as a test bed for this experiment.
Each must ultimately judge how much time and effort to invest, and whether the performance balances the expense. I do not expect the same level of commitment from every person that enjoys listening to music. I do however, bristle at those that limit their options, and in their own judgement, claim everyone else to be wrong. I have gained knowledge only by keeping an open mind, and experimenting with the tools that were claimed to be of benefit. Certainly there are more failures than successes, but ultimately, you receive in return almost exactly what you invest.
I sincerely hope to have an opportunity to share this with you. I believe you will find ours a passionate group of dedicated musicians, engineers and audiophiles, all sharing a diverse software library, seeking only the opportunity to make the music and the system the best it can be. |
Jhunter, your system may not be the absolute ultimate in audio, but it is certainly high quality and capable of resolving the differences between power cables. I would love for you to audition a couple of cables that are very different from stock and from each other.
Perhaps Purist Audio Dominus and maybe something like a Siltech. I would not tell you in advance that the performance in your particular system would be worth the investment. I am certain though that the test I outlined, employing long term listening with one of these, then returning to the original power cord will provide an easily discernible performance change.
I would love it if you tried this and then posted your comments as to what you heard. You don't have to agree with anyone, much less me, but finding a new tool to make your music better would be exciting. If you do this test, and tell me in advance what you like and dislike about your system with the stock cords, I think I can almost guess which of these two aftermarket cords will make you happy. It could be a fun experiment. I will not be unhappy if I fail to guess right, and should you find something that works better, you are the winner in the end.
Last, I could possibly supply you with an Acrotech and a pair of old Tiffany TPC 60's. These would be fairly easy to tell from stock. This offer is in case you cannot borrow the suggested ones from a store. I could possibly loan you a Purist Dominus if I can find a spare. They are expensive, so I don't have much in the way of extras laying around, but I am willing to look. |
Jhunter. I just spoke to Jim Aud of Purist Audio Design. Jim has graciously offered the (temporary) loan of a Dominus Power cord for your testing. If you will contact me via the Audiogon e-mail system, and give me your physical address, the cable will be sent directly to you freight prepaid.
I will most likely get my Acrotec cables back this next Tuesday, and I will ship them separately. |
I experienced a significant improvement with my Soundlab speakers using audiophile power cords.
These speakers, like the Quads, require AC to operate. The first time the discussion concerning expensive replacement power cords was raised, I rejected it outright. My assumption was that with a power requirement of only one eight of an amp, the extra carrying capacity, geometry and quality of copper could not possibly help the performance.
The end result of my experimentation was that the superior power cables provided equal or greater performance for my Soundlabs, as they did on my preamp and amps. I do not claim to have an explanation for this, but obviously there is something more to this than just delivering 120V from the wall to the component. |
Jhunter has received the test power cords from Purist Audio, and this morning I emailed him to be certain that they arrived in good condition. I am hoping that before too long, Jordan will have a complete report. |
702, is there a site that you actually enjoy? I know you do not care for Audiogon, as you come here only to argue about your silly double blind theory.
Your insistence in continuing with the same tired argument that has been responded to by dozens of Audiogon members, proves your inability to think for yourself. You are either too shallow to accept our challenge to learn, or you care absolutely nothing for music and refuse to invest the time or money required to make it better.
You are a pseudo intellect. You visit here only to engage people in arguments over matters that you have no real passion for. The real drive behind your politics is to prove your mental prowess, boost your ego and enthrall yourself with the attitude of superiority.
It's too bad you cannot channel some of that energy into learning about music and the audio components required to make it better. You could improve your system (if you have one), and possibly even find your life fulfilled for once, possibly even finding happiness.
Of course I could be wrong, you may be so void of all soul, passion, creativity and the ability to grasp a challenging concept, that it would be lost on you. If the latter turns out to be true, then you deserve our pity. |
I must agree with Sedond. The question of equipment is a topic I have ask you ( 702 ) about on many occasions. The question continues because you avoid all discussion that concern either music or the equipment necessary to make it work. My reason for saying that you do not care for this site is based strictly on such actions.
Audiogon is about the tools necessary to improve music reproduction. You are preoccupied with the desire to discuss (only) ABX testing methods. You have thus far expressed no other interest or otherwise made any contribution to this forum. From such actions, what other conclusion could we reach? It is much like the person who says they are serious about attending a live performance or a movie and then instead, talk all the way through it.
Possibly a dozen posters have already addressed ad nauseam, our reasons for not applying ABX testing to high end systems. Regardless of how often it is explained, the best we seem to accomplish is your non response, followed some time later with yet another ABX posting as though the subject had not been covered.
Obviously, any interest you have for music is totally and completely overshadowed by your passion for this subject. I cannot imagine why it offers you so much comfort unless it is for the reasons I have already expressed. It would be wonderful to have you surprise us with a response that shatters what you have offered to date. |
Thanks Frap, one of the points that I have continually brought up to 702, in an attempt to show that the engineering side of the business believes in the same high performance equipment that we audiophiles do.
There is absolutely nothing for Richard Vandersteen, Steve McCormack and other famous audio engineers to gain by praising these aftermarket products. In fact some customers could perceive that their products are flawed in requiring these expensive cables to perform optimally. Not a great marketing position unless they truly believe.
The only possible reason for their position is they hear the difference, they enjoy the improvements and they are willing to spend their hard earned cash to back up their convictions.
People who's value system is different, could and perhaps should avoid these upgrades. I understand too, those who share the passion but fail to commit due to budget, wife or conscience. If the latter is the real issue, this is the appropriate place to perform the infamous double blind test. Sit quietly and see if your conscience is filled with "sour grapes" convictions, severely limiting your minds eye the ability to hear the beauty of what these products offer. |
Mhubbard. Reasonable thinking about including high quality cords with Krell. Unfortunately, this thread is an excellent example of everyone NOT agreeing as to the value of such products.
What would Krell do when a good customer avoided buying their product, refusing to be forced to pay the extra $150.00 or $250.00 for the cord? This would apply doubly, if that customer believed it was an ineffective and unnecessary expense.
It's the very reason manufacturers traditionally do not include NOS tubes or isolation devices for their products. Krell and others are better off allowing the customer to make these decision them self, even if you are correct that the product would benefit from the inclusion. |
Mhubbard. As long as it was included and the price did not suddenly rise to cover the expense to Krell for supplying it. The price the factory pays for any given part is usually five times that amount at retail ( to the end user ).
Even assuming that the Krell people can purchase a great aftermarket cord at one fourth of what we pay, the price still turns out to be more than retail at the check out counter.
There are those who would object if the cost were even a few hundred dollars more, and those who did not object to the price, would likely have their own idea as to which brand they preferred at that price level.
I am glad I do not have to make the decision as to which cord to include. My guess is no matter what you choose, someone would be unhappy. Better to include a decent quality Belden that cost $4.00 and keep the price low. You are probably already paying $20.00 for that stock Belden that is included for "free." |
