Is it all in my head??

@prof : I came to this conclusion after hearing the entire system perform as a whole.  When I say everything matters, I mean everything in the room, including the room itself, diffusers, the exact speaker placement, chair placement, isolation racks, (and yes, even the cables).  It seems to have taken everything involved to create the detailed images I "saw" with my ears.  In fact, I couldn't even hear sound from the speakers when sitting in the listening position!  It was as if those speakers weren't making the sound and it was coming from a different dimension right above the amplifiers.  I cant even describe it, but i would guess if you went switching things all around, the portal to where the music was coming from would be closed and the sound would just come from the speakers (if that makes any sense).

Thanks @waltertexas

Again, that’s in incredible sounding system you heard.

As for the type of dimensionality and sonic “dissapearing” of the speakers - that’s something I’ve always favoured myself, and my speaker choices reflect it. I regularly get that effect from my Thiel, Waveform and especially my MBL omni speakers - an amazing dimensional sound field that seem utterly detached from the speakers. It even happens pretty easily with my little Spendor 3/5s.

All it really takes is decent speaker positioning. I tend to have my speakers well out from the back wall and closer to the listening position. Friends, including fellow audiophiles have described the sensation of hearing my systems as “spooky real” and are generally amazed.

BTW, this didn’t take any aftermarket power cables or expensive high end speaker cables/interconnects to achieve :)
Just good speakers and decent care for acoustics and positioning.

Cheers.

Some folks like those MBL Speakers. I don’t. I guess tastes vary. In fact I had the misfortune to be in the exhibit at CES right next to the MBL Room. Thump, thump, thump all day long. I did take the opportunity at some point to go next door to see what all the fuss was about. But I had to leave right away. The MBLs look impressive, I’ll give you that. Would an aftermarket power cord helped? Difficult to say, but it probably couldn’t have hurt. 

Seasons greetings! 🎄

waltertexas OP9 posts12-28-2018 9:08am

@prof : I came to this conclusion after hearing the entire system perform as a whole. When I say everything matters, I mean everything in the room, including the room itself, diffusers, the exact speaker placement, chair placement, isolation racks, (and yes, even the cables). It seems to have taken everything involved to create the detailed images I "saw" with my ears. In fact, I couldn’t even hear sound from the speakers when sitting in the listening position! It was as if those speakers weren’t making the sound and it was coming from a different dimension right above the amplifiers. I cant even describe it, but i would guess if you went switching things all around, the portal to where the music was coming from would be closed and the sound would just come from the speakers (if that makes any sense).

Makes sense to me....

@ waltertexas OP

Which Kimber Kable do you have? You never said. Also what length is it? I have a 6ft PK10 with a WG330i plug and a WG350i female IEC connector.

For a listening test, if you are up to it. I assume your ears are now accustomed to the sound of your system using the Kimber power cord. You should be able to hear if something is changed.

Over a 10 day period have your wife, or someone, randomly change out the kimber with the stock power cord you were using before the Kimber. (She will need to cover the cable and wall outlet so you will not be able to see which cable she has installed.)

Have your wife keep a daily log showing which cable she installed for each of the 10 days. Also tell her she does not have to switch any of the two cables every day. It is solely her choice. She could choose the power cord of the day by the flip of a coin. Your wife will not discuss which is which until after the 10 days of listening sessions are completed.

For each of the 10 day trail you also keep a daily log of which power cord you are hearing. After the 10 days of listening compare notes. You will need a minimum of 8 out 10 correct.

Post back your results.

@roberjerman : " Now if someone snuck in overnight and replaced that new PC with the cheap original one (and you didn't notice), it is most likely that you would not hear any difference from the day before!"

" If PC's made a difference why are all the enthusiasts so unwilling to do this simple test?"

Not that I am or am not an enthusiast, but because I am not letting anyone near my stuff without me in the room and because the cops might shoot the sneaker.  ;^)

The notion that audiophiles never go back to see how the old wires sound is silly to say the least. I swap cords around often enough I know each one's sonic signature. I even have two Furutech Duplex for the amplifier. One GTX-D (Gold) and the other GTX-D NCF (Rhodium) just to change the tone slightly as I see how the system is responding.    And I have three power cords for the amp! all sitting right there to use. Though the new Pangea AC14XL seems to be the permanent cord of choice!      
To me the worst problem is the naysayers often seem to think the folks who can hear the differences are deluded idiots.And make  assumptions based on THAT premise.

elizabeth wrote:

—- lTo me the worst problem is the naysayers often seem to think the folks who can hear the differences are deluded idiots.And make assumptions based on THAT premise.”


Thats only because you refuse to read what some of us *actually* say and you continue to carry around the false equivalence of “being in error” and “bias” with “being an idiot.”   It is precisely BECAUSE the brightest person in the room is susceptible to bias-error effects that it makes sense to consider that variable.

So long as you absolutely refuse to even try to understand this point, you will have yourself to blame for your irritation with your own straw man.

irritation? Why do you assume I an making an emotionally charged statement? You pride yourself on being rational, yet deny the person you are complaining about the same? Then the fact I wrote 'often' not 'all' in the line " naysayers often seem to think the folks who can hear the differences are deluded idiots." If I go find the insults.. (most of which are deleted here on the gon') the straw man theory goes out the window. You CAN find the insults in endless posts anywhere on the internet.

Elizabeth 

Fair point!

However I’m used to seeing just that criticism lobbed at me and others here who are not calling you and others deluded idiots. I believe I’ve seen you impute this to my posts before as well.

So taking “the naysayers” to include me and some others who are skeptical didn’t seem like a stretch.


Of course if you point only to those who have said such things you aren’t referring to a straw man.   Problem is the accuracy of that claim can’t be taken for granted given how often I, and other skeptics here, have routinely been misrepresented and strawnanned.   I say something like “how did you determine it was a real effect vs imagined” and as is often seen here I get back something like “so you take me to be a deluded idiot??!!”

Something good is coming out of this. It looks like we have a new definition of a naysayer. Someone who will argue until the cows come home. 🐄 🐄 🐄 Or, someone who will argue until he’s blue in the face. 🥶

When a naysayer ( and I am being gentle here ) " suggests "and " implies ", over and over and over again, that those who do ( myself included ) hear differences in power cables, might be imagining it, I simply have to laugh. It has become a joke at this point. There is some kind of emotional high that they are needing to feed. They cannot accept a very simple fact. For some reason ( s ), they are not hearing it or unable to hear it. I admire those who have tried to listen, but do not hear it, until, they make claims that it is an imaginary hocus pocus for us who do. And the worst of them, are the ones who never try, and call hocus pocus. These threads have become comedic entertainment for me, and I no longer see any of this as serious exchanges of words or ideas. Let the psychobabble continue. Enjoy ! MrD.

The problem reminds me of an old guy who lived in this building. He was 88 Still driving his car. Top speed for him was 15 mph! Jeez you should have tried to watch him park.. Half an hour. or more.    
Anyway, he was complaining the car was broken. The brakes did not work right. He paid to have them fixed. He said no good.Then he decided to BUY A NEW CAR. Which totally made everything way worse in every imaginable way. So what was the problem? HIM. He could NOT accept HE was having trouble feeling anything in his feet. It HAD to be the car. Even telling him point blank.. Did not matter. ten minutes later it was the car...Sad. Some folks cannot get past the ego.        
Like the Carly Simon song: You’re So Vain,(you think this song is about you.)     
So what was all that for???                               
Just saying some folks cannot believe the World is not exactly as they believe. Just impossible. Cannot be any other way than what they believe. So clearly, to them, anyone saying otherwise HAS to be a lunatic. Or confused, or at least lying.

prof says
" Friends, including fellow audiophiles have described the sensation of hearing my systems as “spooky real” and are generally amazed.

BTW, this didn’t take any aftermarket power cables or expensive high end speaker cables/interconnects to achieve :)"

It sounds like you have a great system prof. Do you use any power conditioning or audio grade outlets? 

elizabeth wrote:

—-“ So what was the problem? HIM. He could NOT accept HE was having trouble feeling anything in his feet. It HAD to be the car. Even telling him point blank.. Did not matter. ten minutes later it was the car...Sad. Some folks cannot get past the ego. “

Totally agree.  Some people’s ego seems so wedded to their subjective infallibility that they have trouble even imagining, let alone admitting, they COULD be wrong.

Those of is who proceed on the well justified assumption we could be wrong, find this very strange.  Finding out how we could be wrong, or if we are wrong, is a way of being open to learning.  I just find it odd that so many seem closed to this.

boxer12

No audio grade outlets.  Until very recently no power conditioning at all. However I added some new equipment not long ago, which finally got me to redressing my wiring.   I found that a couple of Furman PST-8 SMP EVS power bars quite useful, especially their shape which makes the outlets more easily reachable for me.  Don’t mind whatever isolation/protection they may give the system as well.   Didn’t hear any change to my system after they went in.

 Exactly! And those of us who question our/and others ability to hear the differences between power cords are not the ones on the ego trip as we are admitting that we are susceptible to bias. 
@elizabeth.  I’m confused, I thought you insisted you can always hear the difference between power cords?? Your story reads as if you are saying people who claim they can hear the difference are on a massive ego trip because they cannot admit their senses may be fallible? 

That’s a bit of a Strawman argument regarding audiophiles and friends describing prof’s sound as “so real it’s spooky” since, uh, you know, most audiophiles are not good judges of what’s real and what’s not. Oh, did I just question another person’s hearing ability? My bad. That Strawman argument is closely related to another common naysayer argument, “My engineer friends laughed so hard when I told them about audiophile power cords milk squirted out of their noses.” Everything is relative. One man’s spooky is another man’s ho, hum. No offense to anyone, as usual.

Was that giraffe milk? Or platypus milk?

Now Geoff and Elizabeth, in the thread "which beveridge do you drink while listening" (paraphrase) no responses mentioned milk.
My guess is that the "naysayer's" response came from either a troll in a grammar school cafeteria or an actual E from the NASA control room on their milk and cookie break......

Sitting here, looking over at the rig--that PK-10 just *looks* cool .. maybe I'll leave it at that :)

prof,
If you ever want to experiment a bit, try an audio grade outlet. Pangea makes a good one for $100, available from audio advisor. It was a great improvement in my system, for the money. 

boxer121,264 posts12-28-2018 9:13pm

prof,
If you ever want to experiment a bit, try an audio grade outlet. Pangea makes a good one for $100, available from audio advisor. It was a great improvement in my system, for the money.

LOL, you’re kidding right? If he doesn’t believe a 5’ or 6’ audio grade aftermarket power cord can make a difference he sure the hell ain’t gonna believe the contacts of a receptacle will make a difference.
.

Who cares if he 'believes? This is not a Revival Meeting. If what he has is all he wants..No need to ply him with toys to up the ante!  
I think I am going to make my 'New Year's Resolution" to stop posting in cable threads.. LOL

True Elizabeth, but Walkerland is ground zero for elderly ignorance .When I was trapped there the Journal ran a piece on their first big poll back in "33 . Adolph got 29 % of vote in Berlin and 40% in MKE .Not that I believed it myself , 40 % was surely way low .

A few weeks ago, I removed the power cord of my Ayre amp and replugged it into the socket...about 6 feet away.  Suddenly the system sounded MUCH better.  ....went the other direction and plugged the amp into a socket on the farther side, and it closed down and just sounded "very good" again.  All three sockets had Meistro sockets installed. 

Elizabeth, it is easier to simply ignore the naysayers. I enjoy your posts, and so much appreciate your enthusiasm as a music listener. You, I and others are enjoying our money spent with after market power cords ( I still enjoy building them ), and you, I and others know what we are hearing. This is no different than hearing the difference between 2 different tubes. I wonder what would happen if these same naysayers went on a tube thread ( of which there are many ) and ranted that the differences heard between 2 tubes ( in the same circuit, of course ), might actually be in the imagination of the listeners. I really do not know why these naysayers keep at it, or why these differences we hear exist ( electrically or mechanically speaking ). I had my 1st system before some of these naysayers were born. I developed a love for this hobby. I placed myself in the business because I loved it. I trained my ears, and brain, to listen to the plethora of gear available, and to decipher various aspects of recorded music reproduction. I was a singer in a short lived band, and spent many years in a chorus. This, too, was a great learning experience, as it helped me ( in my teens and early twenties ) with the greater understanding of imaging, spatiality, depth, and the recreation of soundstage. It is when I knew, " dynamics ", was an area of sound reproduction that mattered a great deal to me. So, I have owned horns for over 40 years ( and oh, so much more ). My point ? They can say all they want about our imaginations. I will ignore them, their ignorance, and their fallibility when it comes to high end audio. Enjoy ! MrD.

+1 mrdecibel. It is nice to hears the sincere comments from ones like you and elizebeth and others. Not letting the other negative comments be responded to, because it changes the focus on the fine exchange of good thoughts. Just ignore the negative posts, as it always takes the discussion in a different direction.
And for the OP. Yes it is all in our head That’s where we perceive things, in our head. So it’s ok if there is no technical reason for what you hear. There are qualified individuals that say we cannot measure everything we hear. Just enjoy it. And thanks for sharing your thoughts.

Great post MrD! I especially like the way you described how  you settled on horns. I am not a horn person as my journey and preferences took me in another direction.

I would ignore the naysayers (and they are not all created equal) but sometimes the information they provide is presented as fact and may influence other enthusiasts perhaps discouraging them from trying new cables and products. 

Thank you guys. " But sometimes the information they provide is presented as fact ". Yes, they present it, but they are not proving it. They are the ones looking for proof, for reasoning, for scientific data, as to why we are claiming sonic differences. Fact ! I know what my ears / brain tell me. Lizzy, Geoff, myself and others, will not be fooled into the " could I be imagining it " camp. Which is a point I made. Ignore them, because, they will continue with their pursuit. They question our hearing ? How about our taste buds. Vodka ( my go to ), each brand having a distinct taste. Is this, the fact I can taste the differences between Absolute, Grey Goose, Tito's, Smirnoff, etc. real, or my imagination. Now, in reality, I can probably be fooled into mistaking 1 brand for another. Sight, smell, taste, touch, hear. Hearing, is definitely my strongest and most developed sense. Enjoy ! MrD.

Happy New Year All

Normally I wouldn't knock a manufacture but since one keeps being mentioned as being good I have to disagree .
Pangea did not sound good to myself or a friend ( who rebuilds guitar tube amps ) , that includes both the power cords
( we tried both 14 and 9 gauge ) and the power outlets .
Pangea has 3 grades 
We did an experiment with 4 different outlet manufactures  and
the Pangea lowest grade  came in 3rd .
So like all equipment and cables/interconnects what might work for some doesn't work for all . 

At this point, I'm ambivalent about cables and power cords.  I keep hoping to hear a change in my system if I swap cables or power cords, but I'm never quite sure I hear anything different in the sound.  I don't have an inexpensive system, and have cables and power cords from Purist Audio, Shunyata, Tara Labs, and at least three other companies.   But, unfortunately, I really never hear a difference.  Yet, I persist in trying things in hopes that I may hear something different and, to that end, just ordered balanced XLR cables to connect the pre-amp and amp in hopes I might hear a change.  

To your question - if you hear a difference, even if it is because of confirmation bias - does that matter?  Apparently, you think something has changed.  If it makes the music you're listening to "better" in some way - enjoy the difference.

I wonder why people with an opposing opinions are quickly labeled as trolls. Also, people who hear a "big difference" in the sound of cables, always ignore simple tests when it comes to choosing cable a from b. Any test that supports hearing the difference in sound, becomes invalid because it's a test. 

Vodka? They have tests for that, too:

https://www.npr.org/templates/transcript/transcript.php?storyId=588345420

I guess there are sepratate definitions for scitentists and subjectivists for a reason.

If you can't pick it out with the lights out, it doesn't mater if your a scientist or "open minded" and driven by  subjectivity. It is the same result at a different cost.