O-10:
I can find no evidence that your posts have been ignored. This thread has regular contributors, and we know who they are.
There are also people that just 'make the rounds' commenting on every thread on Audiogon. I don't think they are 'into' talking about Jazz. But since it's an open forum, there is nothing that can, or should be, done about it.
However, sometimes the crap they say is so breathtakingly stupid, something has to be said in rebuttal. Hence the tangents away from Jazz.
Now, on the other hand, MY posts are routinely ignored!! Even ridiculed!! I know it's hard to believe, but it's true. Perhaps you, as the OP, can say a few words to correct this outrage. :)
Cheers |
McBride:
Lord, Lord. I know he must have a grand plan.
This is what McBride said:
"But what I find some times in jazz is that you’ll find somebody can get up there and frankly, because I know my training as a musician, I know they’re completely bullshitting. And there’s always some critic who says, “Oh, he’s not bullshitting. He’s just expressing himself in a different kind of way.” And I’ll go, “That’s bullshit!” and now they’re creating a space for this person to garner an audience of confused people who don’t really know the difference: “Some critic said this guy can play. I don’t think he sounds as good as Sonny Rollins but someone said he’s a genius so I better pay attention to him.” Meanwhile, guys who are obviously greater at what they do--it’s almost as if people think anyone can do that. Now this sort of abstract, strange playing that no one can understand, some people now think that’s what they need to get with. Ahh, man".
THIS IS THE ESSENCE OF THE ENTIRE ARTICLE:
" And there’s always some critic who says, “Oh, he’s not bullshitting. He’s just expressing himself in a different kind of way.” And I’ll go, “That’s bullshit!” and now they’re creating a space for this person to garner an audience of confused people who don’t really know the difference: “Some critic said this guy can play. I don’t think he sounds as good as Sonny Rollins but someone said he’s a genius so I better pay attention to him.”
Check out the phrase 'creating space' for the noise makers to the detriment of Jazz and real players. Perfectly expressed!!!.
Cheers |
O-10:
I did notice your post. I just post that stuff from time to time, to have it handy when I am browsing the net. It is not Jazz, and I always indicate that it is not an official post.
The Winans and Marvis made this the definitive version of "I'll Take you There". Takes a lot, to out do Pops and the girls. Bought that one at the PX at Fort Rucker, Alabama. Don't know why it sticks in my mind.
"Disco Lady" takes me back to "The World Cup Club" in Uijeongbu, Korea. I can still see Miss Kim, Miss Park, and Miss Lee, et al, doing it on the dance floor. Those where the days.(1976) This is the city where the MASH unit of Movie and TV fame was located. The compound my unit was located on, served as the Morgue during the war.
Rod Stewart is one of the few Rockers I can tolerate. Always liked his voice. You hvae to hear him thru JBL's at volume!
I just like to watch the antics of En Vouge. Those babes act/sing, as if they are ready to throw down!
Glad you enjoyed them.
Cheers |
******The narrower minded person has it easy to say everything, not to his liking, is BS. ********
Makes life a lot simpler. And in the final analysis, isn't this what everyone does eventually?
If you want to know what you really like, ask yourself this question. What Jazz CD / LP do I listen to, the most?
I would like for all to answer that. What album do you listen to most often?
Me? The most reviled player on this thread. "Marsalis and Clapton Play The Blues." Great playing by anyone's standard!!
Cheers |
Acman3:
It's "I know obscenity when I see it." I am sure we all can recognize the other stuff. At least I hope so.
Cheers |
*****This young kid can swing his ass off like there's no tomorrow; great player!******
The problem is, as I have said 3,025 times, Right next to 'Paterson' on the CD rack, is Peterson, Powell, Previn and even Don Pullen :) etc......... Why buy Paterson?
To compete against that group, You gotta be exceptional, and be exceptional more than just once.
This is something ALL artist face in this age of recorded music. Esp Jazz and Classical composers. The Masters never go away. Never die. They are as near as your computer / Amazon.
Cheers |
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Just in case you missed this part. :)
A big misconception about Jazz is that you need to know something about it to enjoy it.
The truth is when someone hears music with this sizzle, crackling with suspense, and breathing like a living entity, it will stop you in your tracks. In fact, this applies to all forms of music. It’s the reason why some music grabs you and some doesn’t. Duke Ellington said there are two types of music: good and bad. It’s that simple. Jazz at its finest is like really great sex, or the best food in the world, you will want more and you damn sure wont be texting anyone in the middle of it.
Cheers |
****Just let your music make your case. A little Sonny, A little Hawk,.. More will agree with you that way, ******
One would think so, but the noise-makers just keep-a-coming!
Cheers |
***** what is the point of buying Salvant or Marsalis? *****
Salvant came into my universe out of nowhere. Unbelievable hype. A Jazz lover would buy her to check her out. See if the talent matched the hype.
I did. She has talent. Her first CD was very good. Now we wait and see what follows. It takes more than talent to be a success in music. If she falls in with the right people, good song selection, gets the right advice, and follows it, and with a little luck, she may be good for a long time. We will see. She has the voice.
Why would anyone buy Wynton? I won't dignify that with a reply.
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*****Rok, that article was silly. For a closing argument you will have to do better.******
I beg to disagree.
****Just let your music make your case. A little Sonny, A little Hawk,.. More will agree with you that way, and we can enjoy being told were wrong.;)******
A little Sonny never hurt anyone. Totally agree.
Cheers |
BTW, I just posted Sonny with MJQ. Ignored as usual. I just try to keep the Good Lord and Job in mind. I know I'm being tested.
Cheers |
Acman3: You are right, it's gone. I may have posted it by mistake on another thread, realized the mistake, and then deleted it. Failed to repost here. It was during the great Bullshit debate. I remember saying "Great CD, No Bullshit". This is it: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EOYYaBBJr_EI have all three of the 'Road Shows' in my 'cart' on amazon. Something else all ways comes up to push them back on the 'save for later' list. Cheers |
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Today's Listen: Oscar Peterson & Jon Faddis One of a series of recordings of Peterson with Trumpet players. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZhLXJWgB5CILove the playing. Not sure I love Faddis' tone. It's said he plays like Dizzy. I think that's Dizzy's tone also. Cheers |
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*****A milestone in the avant-gard jazz movement and, imo, one of the greatest jazz records ever (Tony Williams was 18 yrs old!!!):*******
Agreed, But this is cherry picking. :) Besides, I did say All/Most.
Cheers |
Old and New Jazz. As Branford said, there are only so many notes. After awhile it will repeat itself to some degree. Nothing new under the sun type thingy.
Several years ago I was in San Antonio at a Best Buy store. They had a fantastic CD section, and everytime I was in town I went there. Once I bought a Multi-Disc box set by Ellington. At the checkout counter, the girl scanned it and said, "wow, that's expensive". I said, "yes it is". She looked at the CD for a moment and said, "He really must have been famous". I smiled and said, "yes he was".
Every musical genre has a beginning, reaches an apex which is followed by a slow decline. The genres carry on, but a lot of people get off the train when the music stops speaking to them. They are replaced by the young, who think the current stuff is just awesome. Just as we did in the 50s /60s. Just imagine what the swing fans thought of Trane.
There are no more people like Muddy Waters, John Lee Hooker, Elvis, The Stones, Mozart, Bach, Goodman, Ellington, Mingus, Mahalia Jackson etc...... you get the drift. I just hope you enjoyed the ride when your prime coincided with the music's prime. That's all there is. Of course there is always a little overlap.
We can all be thankful for the recorded media we have.
And if THEY don't know who The Duke Is, then I don't know who Paterson is! So there!
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*****I said all of this to say that as fans we don't seem to realize how special a good jazz musician is; they're born, not made. No amount of study or practice will enable a person to improvise at the level of a good jazz musician, and no matter how financially successful some other musicians are, a jazz musician knows within himself that he can do something very few people can do, and no way can they learn how to do it. Financial success does not equate to being a good jazz musician and being able to rapidly improvise good sounding music; "either you got it or you don't".*****
It cannot be stated better than this. Case closed!!
As usual, the OP has restored order.
I was reading the Downbeat Issue listing all the Jazz studies programs across the country. I was amazed at the number! I always thought Jazz studies sort of started and ended with Indiana and North texas. Silly me.
I wonder what happens to all those students. They sure aren't playing Jazz for a living.
Cheers |
Geri Allen: Not bad to listen to, while you are doing something else. I am sure their N&Bs were impeccable.
Cheers |
O-10:
A lot of things in the Music / entertainment world aren't what they used to be. But, lack of venue is tied to changes in the society at large. You can't find any Juke Joints in the Delta anymore. The last refuge seems to be New Orleans, and it's fading.
I think the best analogy for the state of Jazz, is the state of Music in general. Simply, all the great creators / innovators are gone. The current music pales in comparison to the original.
I cannot think of any genre that is better, save Classical. They have the advantage of playing the same repertoire.
Hold on to your Blue Notes!
Cheers |
****I'd wager that more new Classical is being written than jazz. You hear it less in the USA than Europe though for obvious reasons.****
This may be true. The question is, how much of this new music 'sticks'? The same applies to Jazz.
Cheers |
I wonder why no one ever mentions the music channels on cable TV (Time warner) , as a source of new music, or as a source to get introduced to old music. Not only do they play all genres, all day, but you get some excellent factoids on the music / composer. Heard some great CPE Bach today, then realized I have nothing by him on CD. Hamburg symphonies I think it was.
Gotta start my search.
Cheers |
******the great Classical musician brings certain things to the table that the great Jazz player doesn't have. *******
Such as??? |
*****Moreover, anyone who thinks that to achieve the level of proficiency required to be an artist in ALL genres including jazz, doesn't require a tremendous amount of practice and study (formal or otherwise) is mistaken.*******
This is a pet peeve of The Frogman, but, no one thinks this is the case. No one has ever said it was the case. Strawman??
Cheers |
I have 'ROUND MIDNIGHT by The 12 Cellists of The Berlin Philharmoniker.
I'll give it a listen later. When I purchased it, I thought it would be Jazz. Has some Ellington, Monk, Gershwin and Corea. But for some reason I filed it in the Classical section. hmmmmmmm.
I am digging Kenny Barron and Dave Holland now, and cannot break away!!
Frogman, I do hope you know that the obvious time, and effort, that you put into your posts, and answers to questions, is greatly appreciated.
Cheers |
*****You got that right Rok2id, IMO Frogman is the best human being on here .And that's saying a lot.*****
I know that. The fact he still talks to me is proof. He is like the Johnny Appleseed of Music. Loves to teach and to share his knowledge.
Cheers |
Today's Listen: The 12 Berlin Cellists -- 'ROUND MIDNIGHT Great players of course. Misleading title. Not much if any Jazz here. Some interesting takes on popular tunes. Pink Panther was very good. I thought this one was the best of the lot, although "A Rap for Mozart" was good. Sort of reminded me of "A Soldier's Tale". Simon Rattle did the spoken part. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AZVFV4T2cCYNice effort, but they should not leave Beethoven and company for the world of Jazz. Kenny Barron & Dave Holland -- THE ART OF CONVERSATION https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XkyD8Vdnkl4This answers the question, is great Jazz being played today? Excellent CD. Aptly titled. Two Masters! Holland plays Bass like most people play guitar. Barron is just his routine brilliant self. Holland actually plays 'notes' on the bass. Dexterity comes to mind! They sound like a larger group. Ain't got it git it. Cheers |
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***** He mentioned that anyone could tell they played jazz, because they all had different tones and played around the beat******
Whatever the differences between Classical and Jazz players, I can only say, Thank You Jesus!
Cheers |
*****We don’t have to know a lot of stuff about sharps and flats and chords and all that business in order to understand music; if it tells us something – not a story or a picture – but a feeling ******
We seem to be moving towards a consensus. Which would be a first on Audiogon!!
Cheers |
The gurus make good points, and they should know. However, it seems as if the overall tone is that (1) 'Jazz players aren't GOOD ENOUGH to play classical, and (2) Classical music is somehow SUPERIOR to Jazz.
I beg to disagree.
I think players like Wynton and Ellington have demonstrated Jazz players can play anything at the highest level.. As far as playing together as a group or section, check out some Ellington, Goodman and Miller. They play together as well as any Classical group. They ARE playing Jazz, so the music calls for different things, but to say they CAN'T play classical? Hmmmmmmmmmmm
Can the Berlin Philharmonic play "Hog Calling Blues"? They could if it was written down. But what would it sound like? Ever hear the German Radio Bands try their hand at Jazz?
Of the two, Jazz musicians are better musicians. Because what they do is harder, and they don't get any help from a written score and / or Conductors. They are out there alone.
As the OP pointed out, you either got it or you don't. A person can learn to do all required of Classical players, by hard work and practice. In Jazz it takes hard work, practice AND that certain something within the person
Jazz is Jazz, and Classical is Classical, and Never The Twain Shall Meet. The efforts of MJQ and others, Notwithstanding. And as I said before, Thank God for both, and for the differences.
Cheers
BTW, my post of the Berlin Cellists, which demonstates certain points of this disccussion was completely ignored.
OP, how long will I have to suffer these indignities???
Cheers |
***To state Jazz players are better than Classical ones is just plain stupid****
Was about to respond, then I considered the source.
Cheers |
*****Good, then I don't have to explain to you how Learsfool
in a symphonic horn solo is "farther out there" than any jazz player could ever be.******
Aficionados:: Remember when I said they say things that are "Breathtakingly Stupid". This is an example of that.
Cheers |
The old stuff ain't dead just yet!
From my local paper, byline New York, reporting on Brian Williams being replaced by Lester Holt. Reports that NBC won latest rating.
The Headline: 'NBC Nightly News' wins after Lester Leaps In.
Gotta Love it!1
Cheers |
This person says it better than I could. http://bretpimentel.com/classical-musicians-and-jazz-music/The Jazz players are better. In Classical music, Mozart, Bach and Beethoven have already done the hard part. All the so-called highly proficient player has to do, is play what's on the paper. And they practice all their lives to play a well established and limited number of tunes, and their playing time on each tune can vary very greatly. I don't see a problem. Exhibit A: "Art Pepper Meets The Rhythm Section" They played together and met each I think, for the first time as the tapes was rolling. Amazing!! https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zHuzH2FL1wwThe People Rest. Cheers |
Rod Stewart: My favorite Rocker. I posted some of his stuff a while back. Very unique voice. Songs made sense to me. Knew how to dress.
Cheers |
Not being contrary just for the sake of it. I will try one more time.
We are talking about Professional players in both genres. Players at the top of their game. I will assume that the Classical players went thru some sort of selection process, that determined that the player was good enough to play in a top tier orchestra.
When they prepare for a performance of, say LvB's 5th, all the players have seen the score before, and have played the music before, at every stage of their career. The conductor does not have to teach or show the players how to play the music.
He will go thru the music and point out the points in the score where he wants certain things. This is his interpretation. The players then make notes on the score. He Assumes they can read the music and play it.
All they have to do is play whats on the paper, taking in consideration the conductor's wishes.
If they can't do that, they are not going to part of an orchestra in the first place.
So, they have been playing forever, he has had teachers at every step of his development, they have been playing the same music (the standard repertoire) that's been around for hundreds of years, the conductors guides them as what he wants in certain passages, and there are over 99 other people playing with him/her. Those 100+ players make wonderful music.
The Jazz Player? I am speaking of small group, not big band.
His entire career and his degree of success depends solely on how the public, the audience, sees and hears him. He must connect. No conductor to guide him or suggest how to play certain passages. No 100+ players to shield him. Can't make it playing just 'standards'. When he solos, he is out there alone. Does not receive a salary, no union, no public financial support, He creates the music as he plays it. He does not create, he does not eat.
Those two to Five players, small group, make music that is downright amazing given the number of players involved. Amazing!! My latest CD is proof of that. Kenny Barron and Dave Holland. Just Two players, making magic.
And if all that weren't enough, the genre is under attack by media and critic backed noise makers.
In my universe, that makes the Jazz players better. It is truly, a survival of fittest situation.
Cheers
BTW, both gurus said that the horn players in the French group (water/fireworks thingy) at The BBC Proms, were out of tune!! Huh??? How can that be?
I have read several reviews where the Berliners and Karajan were accused of being out of tune!! WTF!!!
Maybe these folks are not as "Highly Proficient" and "Masters of their instruments" as one might think.
I soldier on, because I know I am being tested.
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On the Christmas at Carnegie Hall concert DVD, I asked about the guy sitting the orchestra with headphones and no instrument. No one seemed to know his function. There is a guy just like that in the Proms piece. He also has a small camera. That's where we get the head on shots of the conductor.
So now we all know.
Cheers |
To The Oracles:
The gurus need to get it out of their heads that "some folks" think Jazz musicians don't need to know the fundamentals of music, or don't have to practice, or that folks think knowing the technical side, (Lord, I almost said the dreaded Nuts and Bolts)of music takes away from the emotion of it all. As if "some people" are just mindless morons that operate on pure emotion. "Some people"didn't just fall off the turnip truck yesterday. All these assumptions(strawmen) you throw out are just plain wrong. Trust me, we get it.
All that the gurus said is true. I don't dispute any of it. I just think that what a Coltrane or Monk had to do when playing in a Jazz club, was / is harder than what the principal player in a Symphony Orchestra has to do.
Now, WE MIGHT THINK, that playing a violin is difficult, but it's not that difficult to the principal players. WE MIGHT THINK playing what Coltrane played was difficult, and IT WAS, for Coltrane. That's the difference.
It's not easy to play what's in your head. Much easier to play what's on paper. WE are speaking of top notch players, where being able to play the horn is a given
Don't believe me, read Nica's book.
O-10: Any exchange of information is worthwhile.
Cheers |
The Good Lord is strictly into BeBop. When he comes, The Miles Davis Quintet will announce him. |
Horace Silver, as always, is great, but, to really hear "Cape Verdean Blues", you gotta hear the New York Philharmonic Principals Jazz Ensemble play it. Man, those Principals can swing their asses off. No Farting or nothing.
Cheers |
****THAT was an intelligent and helpful response.*****
Thanks
****Actually, principal trombonist Joe Alessi is a damn good jazz player. ******
I think that's what I just said.
Cheers |
Schubert:
*****Rok, all joking aside , you need some form of mental/emotional health care****
I get that a lot here on "Audiogon". In fact, your post is almost word for word, the first Post directed my way by our OP. Before he ever started this thread.
The fact is, I am not crazy, I just speak the truth and Audiophiles think I'm crazy. Sort of like people's reaction to being in a clean air enviroment, it smells funny.
I did have an frontal lobotomy in an attempt to be able to hear wire, and cable lifters, but it didn't work.
I do appreciate your concern.
Cheers |
O-10:
*****Bobby Timmons was probably the least appreciated and most under rated musician in all of jazz.*****
He seems to have been one of those guys that are brilliant wrtiters / composers, but their work becomes well know through the performances of other people. Sort of like Willie Dixon in Blues.
I always thought 'dat there', was an Oscar Brown Jr composition. And I assumed 'Dis here' was by Cannonball..
Btw, I don't have anything by Timmons as leader. In Nica's book, he said he wanted money and a nice house. With these three compositions, alone, he should have obtained both. I hope he did.
Give me recommendations for Timmons on CD. A few days ago I received your recommendation of Roland Kirk, "The Return of the 5000 lb Man". Love it.
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