Nice stuff from Bags and Hutcherson. Swinging classic jazz from two masters. Thanks for the clips.
O-10 is exactly right when he says: "Bags is saying more with fewer words". Hutcherson plays great, but his playing is much more notey and he likes to be flashier than Bags. There are certain subtle "statements" that players make for each other and for the audience that don't always have anything to do with the music in the usual sense, but speak volumes about that player's attitude and sense of self. For instance, notice how on "Just Friends" Hutcherson plays the first solo and takes 5 (!) choruses; that is a lot of blowing by any standard. Bags follows and has the confidence to, instead of saying: "Oh yea, I'm gonna take six", he says : "I don't need five choruses, I can can say it in two"; and he does. Love it!
I also agree about each player's tone; I prefer Bags' tone. A large (not all) part of the reason for the difference is the equipment they use. Both instruments do have a pedal (they all do). Since Hutcherson's is, overall, more streamlined, the pedal is harder to see as opposed to the pedal on Bags' vibes which is larger and more "decorative". Bags' instrument also has the large wooden side panels which tend to give the sound a fuller quality, as well as the arched resonator tubes which is really just a cosmetic difference to give the instrument that contoured appearance in the front. If you look closely at the mallets that they each play, you will notice that the heads on Hutcherson's mallets are smaller and less "fluffy"; hence harder. That is the main reason for the difference in tone. Bags' mallet heads are larger and softer giving the sound a slightly rounder, fuller and less metallic quality. Both beautiful players. |
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OK, jazz aficionados, here is an opportunity to be the first recipient of the "Lobotomy Award": Can you name the tune that Frank Wess and Gene Harris are playing on? On the above clip you never actually hear the melody of the tune, only the harmonic progression and improvisation. The chord progression of this tune is one of the most distinctive and recognizable. Hint: Duke
BTW, the title of this award was inspired by a quote of one of my favorite comments ever read on this forum
** "Hell, no wonder I don't GET IT. Ever since I had my lobotomy, (in a vain attempt to be able to hear wire)" - Rok2id |
Yup. We have a winner! http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=barWV7RWkq0On a more serious note, thanks for bringing Gene Harris to the discussion, I was not familiar with his work other than by reputation. Fantastic player. |
Well, I guess it proves that I am not Polish. Got ME moving. Nice groove. Thanks.
Also, thanks for the clip O-10. Very nice. Vibes and flute create an interesting sonority; all that metal I guess. |
Rok, I have a feeling this will get YOU moving: http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=PE6HmArln_kBTW, Sam and Dave on vocals, Herbie Hancock on keys, and in the horn section (among others) the previously discussed tuba player Howard Johnson on baritone saxophone (one of his doubles), and a young Dave Sanborn before he became a "star". |
Thanks for asking. Yes, but I like my privacy and anonymity, and I don't like to toot my own horn (pun intended); especially on public forums. I am sure you have noticed that I don't play the "as a professional musician...." card. I will say, however, that the CD's range from movie soundtracks, to recordings with The NY Philharmonic, The Saturday Night Live Band, Orpheus Chamber Orchestra, Met Opera, Mario Bauza, Paquito D'Rivera, NY Pops and lots in between. No false modesty here, but that's way more information than I am comfortable with :-) for a host of reasons, not the least of which is the nature of the industry that I am in; it is a very small community.
BTW, speaking of Herbie and Orpheus Chamber Orchestra checkout Herbie's "Gershwin's World", absolutely beautiful record, |
“It is becoming increasingly difficult to decide where jazz starts or where it stops, where Tin Pan Alley begins and jazz ends, or even where the borderline lies between classical music and jazz. I feel there is no boundary line.” - Duke Ellington
****I had to cringe at the Ellington quote. Can a mere mortal disagree with The Duke?? Some people might take his statement too literal.**** Rok
First of all, I seem to remember a comment by you a while back, something along the lines of "sometimes I think listeners are more purist than the artists themselves". Well, there's some truth to that. Concerning Duke, remember the context (funny how we keep coming back to context). He was a composer and orchestrator who "lived" in and was very close to both genres; he wrote music that did in fact blur the lines between the two. And if I may, a comment I made: "One can never know too much". Look at a picture in a newspaper: the further you step back, the clearer boundary lines appear. The closer you get to the picture, the more you see the dots that make up each image; the more the boundaries get blurred. |
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**** I want to trace African music from slavery to the present, beginning with music from Brazil.**** So far, I don't think we have dug deeply enough, and skipped a few rungs on the ladder. It all began with something like this: http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=nKgCJCvY5VoAround 1450, the Portuguse brought African slaves to Brazil. Their music mixed with the indigenous music and resulted in something like this (notice the typically African "call and response" nature of the music, and the name "Macumba"): http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=2YiMtWFfydoAdd the Portuguese/European melodic and harmonic tradition to the Afro/Brazilian approach to rhythm and you get something like this; the "choro", the first popular Brazilian style: http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=46M-Eor8D08 |
****The most important and significant thing said so far, is that there is no African, in African-American music. It is unquely American. This includes Jazz.****
Personally, I would word it slightly differently. There IS African in American music; but, there is no such thing as "African-American" music. It is uniquely American. |
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BTW, to be clear, I suspect you and I share the same feelings about internationalization. What I said poorly in my last post was that the music we love is the result of internationalization and all it's influences, creating a uniquely American mix. |
****Nothing is being merged****
Of course it is. The depiction of "voodoo music" in a Hollywood film like "Black Orpheus" is no more accurate than the depiction of nightclubs in films. I would go so far as to say that the way nightclubs were depicted is more accurate; that's the nature of the film industry. There are very few places on our planet where indigenous musics still exist unadulterated by modern society to some extent; and if they do, they are certainly not part of the mainstream. If the question is: why is African native music as heard in places like Brazil closer to that of the African slaves (and I say "closer" because I suspect that there a many places in Africa where it is still fairly close to what it was 200 years ago) than in the USA? The answer is obvious: the more a country becomes industrialized, modernized, whatever one wants to call it, the less "pure" any one native art form will remain. Isn't that exactly what has been happening to jazz?
****Especially since that music was retained and survived all of those hundreds of years, every place, except here.****
Really? Besides Africa itself, where? Perhaps, to a degree, in places like Haiti and remote parts of Brazil where the above comments apply; and even in those places the indegenous musics have "merged" with it. And BTW, here in NYC there at still places where one can buy live chickens; and NOT because fresh tastes better. The point is that it has survived to varying degrees everywhere, but in a country like ours it is much more "fringe" than in others. |
I should also have added the fact that in the USA, slaves had fewer rights (legal marriage, for instance) than slaves in other countries; consequently, they lost their connection to the past more readily. |
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Well, it's pretty obvious to me; the winner is the live ensemble. First of all, the recording is slightly softer in volume so that will affect our perception. The recording sounds slightly muted in the highs, and has less rhythmic "verve". No brainier, even over an IPad. |
Agree, classic Blue Note. And my favorite period for Coltrane, just a couple of years before "Giant Steps"; his sound was not yet quite as "edgy" as it would soon get. Great record. |
Great tune, classic Trane; thanks. There's a beauty about much of Trane's playing, a certain sense of melancholy that is hard to describe. This is a personal reaction, but its a certain happy/sad quality that I find beautiful. |
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O-10, "Idle Moments" has been on my list of "to buy" for literally years ever since a friend played that cut for me. It was of particular interest because it was, as you said, one of Joe Henderson's earliest things on record. Thanks for the reminder. That recording is absolutely incredible with a beautifully relaxed feeling. As you said, all the solos are great, but Joe.....wow! There is a saying among jazz players that "you can't play outside until you know how to play inside". What they mean by that is that a player has to master improvising "inside" the tune's harmony in a traditional (easily recognized by the listener) way before he can leave that harmony for more "adventurous" note choices "outside" those traditional harmonic constraints. This has been an area of considerable controversy. Many so-called "free" or "avant-garde" players have been shown to be nothing more than imposters since "musical political correctness" has been reluctant to call their playing what it is: bullshit. Joe Henderson is a master at leaving the traditional harmony in a beautiful, organized and CONTROLLED way as a way of EXTENDING the harmony, and not simply destroying it in the spirit of being "free". Two moments in his solo that demonstrate this harmonic mastery are 8:35 and 9:45; it's a kind of harmonic spiciness.
If all that wasn't "geeky" enough: Joe Henderson plays with a very distinctive and uniquely warm sound. Part of the reason for this is his choice of mouthpiece. One will notice that tenor saxophone players play either a metal or rubber (plastic) mouthpiece. During the "swing" and early "bop" eras most players played rubber mouthpieces. As players developed more aggressive styles in the "hard-bop" eras and beyond, they sought the louder and brighter sounds that a metal mouthpiece gives the player. Joe Henderson is a notable exception to this trend. Not only did he choose to play a rubber mouthpiece, but it is a mouthpiece normally used by classical saxophonists who require an even more rounded and less edgy sound.
Another interesting thing about this recording is how the tempo relaxes even more from beginning to end. Sometimes this is intentional; it usually isn't and is just something that happens in the performance. In this case things start to relax a lot during Hutcherson's solo. Notice how much slower the tempo is by the time the melody returns at the end (13:12); it's not a subtle difference. |
Rok, my feelings about "free" jazz have not changed for quite some time. I seem to recall a couple of earlier discussions about it. But, to be clear, I don't consider ALL free jazz to be bullshit; quite the contrary. If I am not mistaken, one of those discussions was about Coltrane's "free" period. I would never consider that to be bullshit. My comments were about some players who jumped on the "free" bandwagon without having any mastery of the traditional. Occasionally, a genius comes along whose innate musical vocabulary is so different that he has something to say even without any substantive roots in the traditional vocabulary, so there is real value. Many others...; well, I think I have used up my quota of that word for a while. IMO, of course, and I am sure some more "open minded" consider that opinion to be.... |
Learsfool, his musical style aside, how did you feel about Jack Teagarden as an instrumentalist; as a brass player? Thanks. |
Shame indeed, thanks for your impressions. |
This is the second installment of the "Labotomy Award" contest. The title says it all; and, no, I don't think that this is an example of "bullshit".....maybe. Can you name the composition that is quoted in this performance? As usual, being the gentlemen that we all are, no cheating! Hint: Learsfool, you are automatically disqualified from participation ;-) http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=d0HB8ybKJzoAs usual, thanks to Rok2id for the inspiration :-) |
We have a winner. The latest recipient of the "Labotomy Award" is Acman3. Congratulations! |
Not much that can be said that hasn't been said many times over about, probably, the greatest composition of the 20th century. In order to (slowly) bring things back to the subject this thread (and possibly change Rok's opinion of this composer) this is THE recording of a work written for Woody Herman and his "First Herd": http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=8M4VZJ8qpcU |
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“She really liked younger men. Sometimes we would take off our clothes and listen to jazz.”
~ Alan Greenspan on Ayn Rand
Rok, in case you didn't know, Alan Greenspan was a jazz tenor player.
“The worst part of Ms. Rand's parties was Mr. Greenspan running around naked in the lobby.”
~ Doorman at 36 E 36th Street on Ayn Rand
:-) |
Yes, THAT Greenspan. In Leonard Garment's (attorney and top advisor to Nixon during Watergate) biography "Crazy Rhythm: From Brooklyn And Jazz To Nixon's White House, Watergate, And Beyond", there is a very funny picture of a big band; in the reed section, at opposite ends, are the tenor players: Leanard Garment and Alan Greenspan.
Agree re Ayn Rand. |
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Learsfool, agree about that record. Fantastic! |
He wrote many good tunes. His best known is "Nuages" which O-10 posted a link to above; it's been recorded by many jazz greats. "Minor Blues" is another one, as is "Belleville". If this ain't jazz: http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=nS2ylPAUxzAWhat do you call this? (Notice the great similarities): http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=xiWCUIY6ClQRok's comments about Louis Armstrong above are particularly appropriate. From The Louis Armstrong House Museum: *****In 1930, Django's friend Emile Savitry played for him Armstrong's new recording of "Dallas Blues," Accord to Savitry, when Django heard it, he broke down weeping, holding his head in his hands and exclaiming in the Romani language, "Ach moune," or in English, "My brother." Here is the recording that changed the life of Django--and the guitar--completely: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=789Co-Ad1AY |
Too hip for the room! :-) |
Rok,
1) No. Although there are traditional seating arrangements for certain sections, certain instrument sections may be positioned differently according to the particular orchestra's traditions, a particular conductor's wishes, or a particular work's requirements per the composer. Although as concerns a particular work's requirements (usually a modern work) "all bets are off", orchestral seating arrangements that seldom change are:
- 1rst violins: left/front
- woodwinds: center/ front to back with horns usually closer to center behind woodwinds
- brass: right/rear
- percussion across the left to right/ rear
Seating for 2nd violins, violas, celli and basses can vary. In opera orchestras, because of the shallowness of most "pits" seating varies even more.
2) Most members are permanent. "Auxiliary" instruments (bass clarinet, piccolo, harp) in major orchestras, with a few exceptions (saxophone), are also permanent. In orchestras with smaller budgets they are not.
3) Given the amazing level of proficiency in today's orchestras there is little chance of an unusually technically demanding work not being executed to near perfection (technically); and, it certainly would not be acceptable if that were the case. That wasn't always the case with earlier recordings of the modern repertory on which one can sometimes hear the players struggling with difficult passages. However, it is not clear from the "every note heard" comment wether the reviewer refers to the execution of the parts or (more likely) to wether that particular recording or performance includes a passage or section of music that, either because of traditional performance practice, or the composer's designation as "optional".
BTW, was I pulling your leg? :-) |
"Take two back-beats and call me in the morning" :-) |
So many. Off the top of my head:
Oliver Nelson,"Blues And The Abstract Truth"
Eric Dolphy, "Out To Lunch"
Sarah Vaughn, "Live In Japan"
Clifford Brown, "With Strings"
John Coltrane, "Ballads"
Nancy Wilson, "With Cannonball Adderly"
Wayne Shorter, "Speak No Evil"
Shirley Horne, "Here's To Life"
Sonny Rollins, "Way Out West"
Joe Henderson, "Inner Urge"
Benny Goodman, "Sextet"
Cannonball Adderley, "With The Bossa Rio Sextet"
Miles, "Birth Of The Cool"
Gotta get to bed. |
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While I would have said it without the slightly condescending edge, I agree with Wolf's basic premise; if not all his choices. I chose my must-have list using two criteria: a bow to what I know of Orpheus' preferred style, and because, for me, a must-have is a recording that has stood the test of time; it is something truly special in the scheme of one's understanding of the music. I love Scofield. But, a must-have? Maybe for guitar heads (sorry for not practicing what I preach) maybe. Frissel is a different story; a brilliant player who will certainly be put on the highest pedestal in the future; IMO. Speaking of Frissel, a player who has played with Frissel often and who has usually left me shaking my head over the adulation that he receives is Joe Lovano; until very recently. He is developing into a true giant.
I don't subscribe to the idea that the best jazz has already happened; or rather, that no new jazz will ever equal that of the past. The music is too vibrant and deep for that. I just don't think that the more contemporary jazz has yet been put in the proper context. Additionally, I don't think it is fair to judge it (from the standpoint of it's value in the overall history of the music) while taking our own individual cultural, age, and even more personal biases out of the equation. |
A few thoughts on the Buena Vista sound. If one uses as criteria two of Jazz's essential ingredients,improvisation and roots in African music,it is clearly "jazz"' as Rok points out. But the music heard on most of BVSC's recordings is actually closer to the "guajira" and "son" styles; the "country-music" of Cuba. The repetitive vocal style is the influence of the chants of the music that the West African slaves brought to the mix. It predates the Cubano-bop that came a decade or two later. |
Rahsaan Roland Kirk, one of the great geniuses of the music. If you want to try other recordings of his, start with "The Inflated Tear" and "The Return Of The 5000lb Man". Amazing stuff. |
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Quite a few of the ones already mentioned have been reissued by AP
including Blue Train, Side by Side, Blues And T A T, Moaning, and others.
Do a cross check and you will find more. A couple more personal favorites
on AP:
Joe Henderson "Page One"
Winton Kelly "Smoking At The Blue Note"
Dexter Gordon "Dexter Gordon"
Gil Evans "Out Of The Cool" |
Thanks. I have always had a soft spot for that music; I am Cuban, after all.
If you don't know these already, check out the music of Beny More, and Orquesta Aragon; wonderful stuff. There is a great compilation "The Very Best Of Beny More" that is worth having. Orquesta Aragon's "Cuban Originals" is also excellent with very good sound. Keep in mind that the new and current Orquesta Aragon has a different sound altogether. Enjoy. |
Hi Chazro, I mentioned More and Aragon only because they relate to Buena Vista SC, the reason the discussion turned to Cuban music of that period; which was already a departure from the OP's theme. I completely agree there is a tremendous amount of great modern Cuban music, and yes I listen to all of it including the artists you mention. I would also add to your great list: Gonzalo Rubalcaba, Irakere, Chucho Valdez, and Alfredo Rodríguez, one of the young Cuban rising stars: http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=csM_M-j3UNESomething fun from one on your list, Dafnis Prieto a genius percussionist if there ever was one: http://m.youtube.com/watch?feature=plpp&v=YXpxsXC4Tdw |
There you go again, Rok. Why make a provocative comment that not only is factually incorrect in it's omissions, but seems to diminish the validity of "all the so-called latin stuff"?
Your comment shortchanges the equally important influences of European (Spanish), Arab, and in the case of Peru, Andean musics. Sure, the African influence is obvious in the rhythmic structure of Latin music, but there is a whole lot more going on in it than that. You might want to reconsider your assertion. |
If I misunderstood the tenor of your comment, my apology. But concise and
precise you were not. But, I think you are missing the point, and it appears
we do have a disagreement. The point is that you can't take the other
influences out of the equation any more than you can take the African
influence out, and your comments suggest that the African influence is
more important than the others; it is not.
****Take away the African component of all Latin Jazz and what is left?****
Ok, take away the Spanish, and Arab components and what is left?
Drumming? I hope we can agree that Latin music is much more than that.
This is all well documented in musicological circles; no mystery at all.
Regards. |
Actually Rok, the Youtube link of Alfredo Rodiguez that I posted above perfectly illustrates what I am talking about. The rhythmic structure is clearly rooted in "clave" (Africa), the form of the composition and the improvisation around it is clearly rooted in European (Spanish) tradition, and the harmonic flavor of the piece is derived primarily from the use of the harmonic minor scale (Arab). A perfect hybrid: Latin stuff.
Regards. |
You lost me now. Or, maybe, you lost yourself with your unwillingness to be a little more openminded. Rok, at this point in the discussion we were talking about latin music or latin jazz; what you referred to as "so-called Latin stuff", and NOT traditional jazz. My references and examples of what influenced the shaping of this music are established facts. We may not like a particular music, but that doesn't mean we can try and change the facts. The irony here is that it was you that first brought up latin music with your reference to the Buena Vista SS, and referred to it as Afro Cuban Jazz; doubly ironic, because if you were to ask fans of the music for examples of Afro Cuban Jazz, BVSS would probably be at the bottom of the list. So, to paraphrase you: Which is it, is "so-called latin stuff" jazz or not?
Anyway, it seems to me that I have been here before in discussions with you, and I will take a cue from experience and bow out; this is too nice a thread for silly bickering. My comments speak for themselves.
Peace. |
****and it's so absurd. Everything with an African origin is changed to something else****
I find that comment fascinating on several counts. Yes, it's true that throughout musical history (and history in general) there are many unfortunate examples of African contribution to the art not given sufficient credit. But, don't you think that it is a kind of political correctness, to suggest that also giving credit (correctly so) to the contribution of other nationalities to an art form that is clearly a melting pot of many influences, somehow detracts from the importance of the African contribution? In fact, what has been happening in recent times is exactly the opposite, and demonstrates the danger of political correctness in the arts. The incredibly rich African contribution is now highlighted at all cost, at the expense of other contributors, and even exploited to make political statements, or for profit. The danger is not only that others are denied deserved credit, but that by it becoming politically incorrect to criticize art with African origins, we actually hurt the artistic heritage of a culture (think rap).
I am at a loss to understand how acknowledging the fact that Latin music is more than just a single, African influence somehow detracts from the importance of the African influence. Rok challenged one of my comments this way:
****"Ok, take away the Spanish, and Arab components and what is left? Drumming?"
You might want to reconsider this****
Really? Let's delve a little deeper and actually see what is left if one takes out the Spanish and Arab components. But, lets have more than just opinion; let's use concrete examples and analysis.
Your example of the movie "In Brazil" is an interesting one. Brazilian music is acknowledged to have a strong African influence. How do you propose that "credit" be given? Should every Holywood movie with a John Williams score give credit to the folk music of the native people of Hungary, since Bela Bartok had some influence on John Williams' composition style, and the music of Hungary was an influence on Bartok? Pretty convoluted, no?BTW, correct me if I am mistaken, but I think the movie that you refer to is "The Americano", set in Brazil. The reason that the music sounds so much like the music in "Cuban All Stars" is that the composer for the score in "The Americano" was Xavier Cugat, who I am sure you know was a Cuban composer. Actually, he was not Cuban, he was Spanish and spent many years in Cuba. See, as I have been saying, in this music there is more than one single important influence and they are all connected. |
****It is not spanish and the indians were wiped out eons ago. So what could it be?****
C'mon man, let's stay focused. Nobody said anything about Indians; only as concerns the influence on the Peruvian music that you brought up earlier; and there it is undeniable.
Now, Spanish you ask? You better believe it! Go a little deeper into the history of this music. Don't rely only on liner notes; they ususally only tell a small piece of the story. The traditions in this music run very deep.
For starters: where do you think the prominence of the guitar and, more specifically, the "laud" and "tres" came from? Spain; but more specifically, the Arabs by way of Spain. The Moors invaded Spain and brought with them these instruments, their tuning and way of playing them. Then there is those pesky issues of harmony and form. Show us one example of native African music that uses harmony and form in a way remotely resembling that in the type of Latin music that we are discussing; or in Jazz for that matter. Please understand, and I will say it again: the African contribution to this music is obvious and huge; but it is far from the only one. |
