First off, I have to say that I always had significant bias against Klipsch speakers. I thought maybe some of the Heritage Series were possibly decent, but in no way audiophile grade.
I recently bought a pair of Forte’s in distressed white oak. They look super vintage and the grills are very tasteful. My impetus for the purchase was I moved to a house this past spring that has a dedicated music room for me, and I wanted to experiment seeking a bigger sound as the room is large (25 long x 15 wide x 10 foot high ceilings). My system is the following:
Winter: Primaluna Dialgoue HP Premium Integrated, Summer: Schitt Freya, NAD M51 Constant Year Long: Bluesound Node 2, NAD M22 DAC, Manley Chinook Phono Pre, Technics 1200 GAE Turntable, AudioTechnica ART9 Cartridge.
I’m really enjoying the Forte IIIs out of the boxes. I haven’t even tried them out with with tube amps (only tube pre) yet. I thought they would be fatiguing and have tons of bass. The treble spectrum (midrange northbound) is sweet and doesn’t sound cupped. The bass is perfectly integrated but not as prominent as I’d expected. The soundstage is seamless and they are not fussy about positioning.
The other thing that surprised me was how much of the NAD M22 juice I can use. I thought that I’d never move volume much due to the whopping power of the NAD M22--not true. So this is making me curious--what will happen when I hook up my 300B tube integrated? I think it has 8W per side. Will I miss the NAD’s power? That’s going to be fun experiment.
And, it’s going to be super interesting to try the Primaluna integrated with them. I can’t wait to see if I like my KT150s or EL34 variants better.
I’m not going to give some glowing review because it’s too soon and I’ve learned some speakers may sound so so with one system and great with another and even more so with different rooms. There is, however, a big takeaway for me personally: I can use reviews as guides but you have to try stuff out in your room with your stuff to really know. I recently sold a near mint pair of KEF LS50s because my $500 Wharfedale Dentons just sang better with my Creek integrated in the specific room they are in (downstairs system). And that doesn't say anything about the KEFs--they are still amazing boxes.
It's not necessarily an expensive proposition, and sticking with NOS tubes that test well and are matched has worked for me...the RCAs and Sylvanias actually cost about as much as or maybe less than the new Tung Sols.
OP, I wish we all had that attitude. The world would be a better place. Wolf, thank you for the tube review. I plan to try the stock tubes first, listen, second-guess myself several times, worry, ponder, drive my wife crazy, then maybe try others. Tom
Tomcarr...The Tung Sols seemed to have a somewhat clearer overall tone than the stock el mysterioso Russian tubes, and I suppose warmth was a component of that. I like the build quality of them...very quiet. I couldn't leave well enough alone though as the more I read about various 6SN7GTBs, the more I was compelled to try NOS Sylvania Chrome Domes and NOS RCAs...RCAs have more bloom in the bass, and Sylvanias just seem accurate and snappy...or something...small differences of course, but it's always fun to roll around in tubeland. All of these tubes are relatively affordable.
I can certainly ship it to you to try, but with Schitt's trial program it would be cheaper for you to go that route--unless you have a means of free shipping for you and I to use.
OP, wow, thank you for your generous offer! Unfortunately, I live nowhere close to Chicago. You are indeed a caring soul and a gentleman. Wolf, after inquiring about tubes with the factory rep, he suggested the Tung Sols were slightly warmer than the stock Russian tubes. Your thoughts? OP, thanks again for such a surprising, generous offer. Tom
Note that Freyas are so cheap it's utterly worth it to try one and send it back if it sucks...note that mine came with the Russian 6N8S tubes that worked fine with no microphonics, but I had to try the new Tung Sol 6SN7GTB and some NOS Sylvania "chrome domes" and NOS RCAs...currently using the RCAs in the inputs and Sylvanias in the output...this changes often.
For me the only fault in the Freya are the LEDs...too bright, fixed with a green sharpie and a maddeningly fiddly operation to get the top back on the chassis with the LEDs lining up to the holes...if there's an easy way to do this I'd like to know that it is, but I managed it after a struggle.
Some member noted on a different thread that if Schitt used a front switch, better remote, and slicker chassis the unit would easily exceed $1k or $1.2k. I think that’s a good point.
I cant find fault with it on substance. I really like all the inputs.
I’ve had fun with a Freya for nearly a year, and it mostly stays out the way...utterly quiet in all modes, which is easy to test as I use horn loaded speakers, and if I put my Schiit Loki EQ in the path and turn up the higher frequencies with my ear to the tweeter horn the Freya is still dead quiet...microphonics free! I run it onto a smallish single ended tube amp. I’ve had a lot of preamps over the years and the Freya, especially with good sounding NOS tubes (of which I now have a pile), is a great preamp regardless of the silly low price. The clicking sound doesn’t bug me at all (because I know I'm causing it), and since my Freya has a lot of air above it (the thing gets a little hot from both the tubes and transformers) I’m used to reaching over for the switch. I say don’t fear the Freya!
Yes, I have one. I just got it based on a member's recommendation. He (assuming he was a he--we need more women audiophiles!) was right-- The Freya is really great especially for the money. I haven't compared it to a bunch of other dedicated preamps, at least those in recent memory, so it's hard to say it plays in the $4-5k league.
It is, however great. I think I posted a little review of it. Let me go look.
I may sell it if I figure out how to do a built in where I vent my tube amp through a damper in the summer to release heat into the attic above my third floor listening room. I bought it just to use it in a summer system where I move out a tube amp and use a NAD M22 power amp.
I found the Freya to be very quiet. To me the tube stage was best, then FET stage, then passive--yet there are others who find the opposite. I liked the stock Russian tubes.
Th only thing I didn't like was the clicking steps in the volume control (note the actual volume pot is a great one that stays out of the sound). It's just that when the volume knob is moved it intentionally by design makes noise. I also didn't like that the main power switch was on the rear of the unit. It's not too hard to grab but not ideal.
The Freya was a great introduction to the Schitt brand. Oh, and I experienced none of the microphics some say they did when touching the unit during playback. Mine is dead silent. It's really nice looking too.
OP, you mentioned using a Schiit Freya. How long have you had it and how do you like it? Am considering purchasing one. Thank you for answering an off-topic question. Tom
Thanks for the advice mrdecibel. I have looked at it, and there is room for another layer. I actually didn't remember how light and thin the horn was. The ribs on the back are so small and thin that it was easy to just form the pad material right over them. I have plenty of it, so I figured why not.
roxy, that is awesome. You cannot over damp the horn, but be sure you can still re-install the horn. The lip at the face of the horn needs to still fit into the baffle cutout, so the thicker you go, you need to leave space behind the lip ( widest point of the taper ). Keep in mind, metal horns resonate and ring, and are a bit worse than the newer poly horns, which is why Klipsch switched over. But as you have heard, these newer horns are still in need of improvement. Incredible upgrade, little cost, a few hours of work. Enjoy ! MrD.
I wanted you to know that I ordered some damping pads from Amazon a couple of days ago, and it arrived yesterday. I started applying it to the horns of my Klipsch Epic CF 4s last night and was done in a couple of hours.
I had already damped them with the strips of grey putty that is used to seal leaky doors years ago when I first bought them, and that was ok, but I took that off and cleaned them very well and applied theses sheets made by Noico, which many amazon reviewers said was the best. Anyway, it's done and sounds better than before. I am seriously considering taking them out again and putting on another layer. These horns are so thin!
Thanks for the motivation. I've known about it for years, but I needed a little push.
Jbhiller...yes I did dampen the things if only to get mrdecibel off my back! It was interesting as I'd never used Dynamat before and the operation does make sense...I'm always up for logical and inexpensive tweaks, especially if reversible which the Dynamat clearly is, so you have nothing to lose except a finger maybe. The Fortes are worth opening up as it's cool to see the detail and professionalism used in Klipsch USA construction...if they're anything like the Heresy IIIs you'll see clean and sophisticated innards with high quality wire and generally clean construction, and I always take any new thing apart anyway...tighten speaker bolts or screws, etc.
@oldschoolsounds, many speaker companies use a " ring " between the driver and the cabinet ( foam, rubber, paper/cardboard ), but I believe it is used to suppress energy from the driver to the cabinet, and the reverse, to suppress energy from the cabinet to the driver. I also believe it is used to create a better " seal " between the two. If some folks are calling that bracing, I will not argue, although that is not my definition of bracing. A set of Polk towers I have use these rings behind the woofers when mounting. If I recall, my pair of Klipsch CF2s ( Epics ) also use them. I have tried it many times, and in some instances I heard a difference, and in some I did not. @wolf_garcia ,I remember now, making you an offer you could not refuse. I also warned you it might destroy scissors, and please apologize to your wife. And, for your very logical reasoning, I will continue to post, especially when it comes to Klipsch. I will try and add some "humor " next time. Thank you, and Enjoy ! MrD.
@wolf_garcia Did you dampen your Heresy IIIs? It looks like you said you did but I couldn't tell with all of your humor!
I'd be open to dampening my Forte IIIs but I'd like to hear and see about it first. I've never cracked them open.
Tonight, if I get time, I'm going to run a homemade 300b amp into the Forte IIIs. I put high end parts into the amp (Mundorf premium caps, Takman resistors) and it has a really nice layout internally with massive transformers (power and output). I'm curious to see if I get some magic going.
Mrdecibel: You gave me no choice in the damping thing, so I expect you to issue an apology to my wife as I gummed up her favorite scissors...they got un-gummed...still...took some "splainin'". The term "detained" means they are held in my listening room and have very little chance of escape (I generally fear they could try to get back to Arkansas if allowed). Detailed was a more apt term, so yeah...detailed. And please continue posting as these posts are one of the few bastions of defense against the anti-Klipsch horn movement that exists in the demented minds of the mindlessly demented.
Dampening the midrange horns on my Forte I's helped with detail, openness and the like at moderate to louder volumes. I mentioned earlier that I replaced the factory Forte I K53/K701 combination from an earlier Heresy. The driver was better made and sounding, but I was surprised that the K-701 horn had fewer outside ribs for bracing in the mold. Seems the Klipsch engineers took steps to reduce resonance by beefing up the bracing in later versions of the horn.
The midrange compression driver on a Forte I is only about a 1/16th of an inch from the back inside wall of the cabinet. (Not sure if the geometry is the same on later generations with a tractrix horn). Recently I read that loosening the mounting screws and inserting a thin piece of compressible foam behind the driver and then re-tightening the mounting screws helps with "bracing" for a clearer sound.
Thanks for letting me know what equipment is giving you the results you've described. The Bluesound Node 2 has come up on other discussions, so I will take your advise and start with that for streaming using its own DAC.
The first "hifi" cartridge I got in the mid-70s was AudioTechnica's then second from the top model with Shibata stylus, (back when most cartridges where moving magnet). It was the best component in my system and in college several people would bring their albums over to hear it on my stereo, so you've invested well.
You are right that horns do dynamics better than detail, but the "live" factor of a live recording and energy of their sound is great. Glad you're enjoying the fun factor they bring to music.
If you want to get back to more of a monitor sound for instrument placement, nuances, etc., but retain some of the dynamics of horns, the Altec 604-G speakers are hard to beat, especially in the larger 620 cabinet. If you have heard them yourself, you can see why they where the most popular speaker for studio monitors for years.
wolf, a typo I am sure. Detained, detailed. I am happy, if you guys want to do damping, that is up to you. I am happy if you do not. It was, and still is, a very significant tweak Klipsch owners have been doing for 50 or so years ( I am not the only one ), in eliminating the ringing ( in the early metal horns ) and the resonances ( in the now poly plastic horns ) making them cleaner, smoother and more detailed. It also effects the entire front baffle in doing the same. I might not know much, but I do know Klipsch ( Heritage ), and if my posts are no longer wanted by some of you, just say so. My feelings are not hurt, but sometimes appreciation of knowledge is nice. Yes, very little, if none at all, brevity. Enjoy ! MrD.
The Heresy III horn damping process is interesting, and worth it if only to make mrdecibel happy depending of course on how important his happiness is to you. They do sound somewhat smoother, and I should have done an A/B test before damping the second horn as I no longer remember the pre-damped sound...meh...these are astonishingly detained speakers, and really come into their own once you really listen to them over time...they will not sweeten a harsh recording, nor should any speaker do that, but with well sorted gear they will allow a truly accurate and coherent representation of recordings into your earballs, which is a good thing. Detail is right there with Heresy IIIs, as I can hear stuff previously buried in the mix...I use a tube preamp and a simple SE tube power amp and they really shine with Heresy IIIs to a degree that nothing among the great speakers I've previously owned can match. Maybe it's the efficiency, maybe it's the horn and crossover design, but these things are absolutely a high end bargain speaker.
Remove the mid horns of the Forte 111s, and dampen them from the rear, using a product like dynamat. Do it in abundance and evenly, re-install them, and you will hear gobs more detail. Enjoy ! MrD.
For streaming, I use the Bluesound Node2, feeding and NAD M22 DAC. If I were you, I would try the Bluesound. It's internal DAC is really splendid and there's nothing wrong with it. I'm not aware (it may exist) of a product that does what the Bluesound does for the price. It's a highly musical piece.
For vinyl, I have an AudioTechnica ART9 moving coil cartridge (about $900) and a Manley Chinook phono preamp.
Of all the audio that I've owned, I think the biggest leaps have come from a great phono pre and in better cartridges (note--I have not gotten into the super price carts yet...let's say >$1500).
I should tell you that I heard a couple of things today on Tidal/MQA that did clearly beat out vinyl. If, however, I have a good pressing of something that's well recorded, vinyl typically wins. More holographic sound and an easier sounding room filling nature.
I should also note that while the Forte IIIs are just the ticket for my room and system right now, they don't do super detail. For example, I auditioned PSB Imgaine T3s (I own T2s) and they carved out instruments in isolation way more. Someone would play a four note guitar motif and drop it in after a lyric and it just hung in the air. That doesn't happen with the Klipsch Forte III. Instead, the Forte III just keeps moving right along churning out one big, giant picture of sound. It's very different and I like both approaches. Right now, I want to be bathed and washed over in sound, rather than analyze nuances.
This isn't to say the Forte IIIs aren't detailed. They are. They just don't highlight things in isolation. The are certainly super cohesive and have much texture/timbre.
I am definitely clearing out the cobwebs in my mind regarding audio gear from when I was first active in hifi decades ago. Yes, you are right, it is a radiator design, and as I recall, we called it a passive radiator. Thanks for the correction and keeping things accurate!
A reason some may include the Forte, at least the Forte I, in the Heritage line (including the Klipsch marketing team) is it used the same tweeter (K-75-K) and midrange (K-53) drivers, along with the same horns that were used in the Heresy. So the Forte I looked like a taller version of the Heresy.
In fact, I put a pair of earlier era Heresy K-53 drivers in my Forte I based on comments that the earlier components were of better quality. It may be since Klipsch has used different manufactures for their drivers over the years, but the driver's structure from the Heresy seemed better made and the leads were soldered on vs. the use of male/female spades. An A/B comparison using a mono recording gave the Heritage version an edge in smoothness, at least to my ears and trying to be unbiased as possible.
Didn't the Heresy get its name for being the first Klipsch speaker designed not to be placed in a corner (as in contrary to the others)?
jbhiller,
Thanks for letting me know that vinyl still wins out. For reference, would you mind sharing what phono preamp and cartridge combination you are using? Also, since this will be my first time streaming Tidal MQA, which streamer do you have?
Glad to see you've made additional improvements with your tube rolling.
You may have tried this already, but elevating the speakers so the tweeter is at ear level in your listening position can bring some additional clarity and openness. This may be more true with my Forte I's which do not have the tractrix midrange horn, but still worth the effort since horns typically have a narrower vertical frequency response coverage pattern than a cone or dome driver.
To update, I have now engaged in tube rolling to tune my tube amp and the Forte IIIs. I moved out Tung Sol 7581a's and put in KT150s. Strangely, the KT150s do not sound bright or harsh. They have really upped the bass--tighter and glowing. My guess is the extra wattage generated by the KT150s is adding more control and headroom so they aren't coming across as harsh.
My response will lack brevity, as indicated by wolf. The Forte line ( and Chorus line ) are not bass reflex designs. They use sub bass radiators ( rear ) which are operating on the acoustic pressure being generated by the active woofers ( front ) within the sealed cabinets. Bass reflex is another design ( think Cornwall ). Enjoy ! MrD.
Vinyl is unquestionably smoother and more ethereal regardless of solid state v tubes. But, my sense (and I'm not sure) is that my phono preamp is doing a great job. It's also tube based and of any upgrade I've done it made the most difference. I know a phono preamp seems like the least sexy thing to buy; it was. It's one of the most valuable pieces in my system.
Tidal using MQA masters is really, really good. In fact, with the right recordings it's near spectacular. I do, however, still prefer vinyl.
On my older rig, the NAD/Tidal masters edged out vinyl at even rate (say 1 in 2 recordings). The phono pre made the difference. Some guy on here told me that was my weak link. He was right.
Thank you for the specific details on you impression of the Forte III's with your different gear and sources. I'm glad you gave them a try and are enjoying the dynamics that efficient speakers and horns are capable of. As you've discovered, these type of speakers, (provided they were quality brands like Klipsch or Altec), seem to sound their best matched with tubes.
Since the 1970s I have preferred that sound myself and currently have a pair of Forte I's that I fitted with Bob Crite's crossovers and titanium tweeters which helped bring them closer to your description of the III's. Their well designed bass reflex set-up provides some of the best bass you'll hear for their size, whether it was back in the 1980s or today.
Unfortunately, I gave away my extended, well cared for record collection of the 1970s for the convince of CD's as it seemed I had more time in high school and college to listen to music then when I started working. Currently I am modifying a turntable to get back into vinyl, but have heard good things about Tidal/MQA.
My question is if the difference you described when you compared vinyl to Tidal/MQA using the NAD M22 is as noticeable using your Primaluna?
Thanks, and hope you enjoy your building record collection with the Forte III's.
I was using PSB Imagine T2s. I loved them in my old house (just moved this past spring), but I couldn’t get them to sound as good in a much larger room. I tried upping watts, moving from tube to solid state, tons of positioning, etc. They still sounded really good, but I was missing warmth and they weren’t filling the larger space right. I think a sub bass system (REL) would have been the next step had I not taken the plunge on Forte IIIs.
I always had a bias against Klipsch as non-audiophile. I loved British and Candadian speakers (used Totems, Monitor Audio, B&W, Epos, and wanted Spendors). I always thought of Klipsch as similar to Cerwin Vega and not high end, placing JBL way ahead of them.
The Forte IIIs are superb. If someone out there is on the fence or just curious (and can afford to play around a bit) I’d urge a test drive in your room. My experience was really great with solid state, but maybe shy of amazing with tubes (Primaluna integrated).
I was also previously thinking of moving to Spendor D7s or PSB Imagine T3s. Maybe that’s a curiousity I’ll have to explore someday. But I’m very pleased with the Forte IIIs and, like you, only want to buy more vinyl.
What really impresses me with the Fortes is the height and width of the musical picture. It’s just huge. Music fills the space like air would let out of a tank. The music does not come at me from the direction of the speakers.
If anyone is in the Chicagoland area and wanted to hear them in my dedicated room I’d love to do it. You should bring me a six pack of beer though. :) I’d love to hear someone else’s view of them and whether they had similar thoughts before and after hearing them.
I’ve felt like I have been on a lonely Forte iii island for a few months now. Couldn’t find any forums or peeps that were into them. But I have been. My system is modest, Arcam 380, McIntosh 7100, Parasound JC3 jr., VPI Scout 2. My room acoustics are janky at best. Too much glass and forced uneven speaker placement. For a couple years I had Spendor A5Rs hooked up to this system. It sounded good...but was just not FULL. Never warm. A piano was very precise, but, almost like the strings themselves were mic’d up. Then I decided to try the Forte iiis because a salesmen told me they had none of the shoutiness people complain about with Klipsch. On the very first play, game changer in my system. A piano no longer was just strings. I could hear the ENTIRE piano. Meaning the resonance of the wood and full shape of a high stick open baby grand in my living room. As for horns (I listen to a lot of jazz and classic rock), it’s as if these speakers were created for Miles, Coltrane, and Dexter Gordon. I have no idea if horn speakers have a symbiotic existence with horn instruments, but, man do these ever go together well. I haven’t owned tons of other speaks, like I said they replaced Spendors, but after I bought these I quit tinkering with my system. I no longer try to find flaws or adjustments. I just use them and enjoy them and use my money on vinyl.
After about 36 hours of break in I've noticed the bass has come alive. The midrange and treble haven't changed to what I can tell.
I was thinking that I was going to be contemplating a sub-bass addition--e.g. REL unit--until Sunday night. I kept playing the same songs from a playlist when I took notes and evaluated where sonics were at. The bass has gone from fair but weak to strong.
Roxy54...I was noting you used the symbol " for a dimension description, one that is universally used as inches and not feet. Therefore I made a silly yet astonishingly hilarious comment regarding this gaff, which clearly spread joy and mirth to all corners of this thread. I will note for future comments that you have the ability to chew the fun out of my gum.
The Forte iiis sound every bit detailed, image well and have smoothness top to Bottom-with my tube amp. With the NAD masters amp they sounded super dry and clean They almost sound like different speakers with the two different amps.
Long time ago means they were NOT Forte IIIs. This is a very different speaker than what you remember. And klipschorns in the right room with the right amp are very different than what you remember.
If you think that George, you haven’t heard them all.
I had an all day sessions at a "Klipsch Nut’s" man cave with K-Horns, LaScala, Belle, and Heresy, none of these were as musical to me as the Forte II’s were, they all just shouted at me where the Forte did not. I must admit I didn’t know about the Chorus, it looks to me just like a larger extension of the Forte, which should be great.
I thought that I’d drop a note about my first weekend with these guys.
Vinyl sounded better than Tidal/MQA. I have a great phono pre in the Manley Chinook. My DAC is no slouch. I’m not sure if a better DAC would help narrow the gap, but vinyl had more air, better midrange and more believable bass. There is a clarity with vinyl with these in my rig. With my PSB Imagine T2s, vinyl v. Tidal/MQA challenge each other and the victor was decided album to album. Here, the Forte IIIs just sound better with vinyl.
I had a good listening night with 75% vinyl and 25% digital. I thoroughly enjoyed listening to all sorts of music. Voices, horns, and certain percussion stuff sounds fantastic with the Fortes. With digital, I felt like I was sitting 25 rows back and looking into a diorama of the show. Everything was there but in a tight box that I had to look into through a view finder.
With vinyl, I was sitting in the same room as opposed to at a larger venue or through that viewfinder. The sound was taller, wider and more ethereal. My mind’s eye seemed to be viewing a large screen as opposed to looking into the diorama or framed picture of the performance. The Fortes did a great job in displaying massive amounts of air and space in the performance. But why such a difference between vinyl and digital? Again, when the PSB Imagine T2s were in my system, vinyl would best digital more times than not yet digital was much more palatable than with the Fortes.
I closed the 4 hour session thinking these were fun, listenable speakers that keep music the priority. Then my curiosity got me...how would these sound with my Primaluna Dialogue HP Premium?
I fired up the Primaluna today and my first reaction was there is much more texture with the Primaluna. With the NAD M22 everything is clean and clear--so much so that I’d describe the overall color like a daylight lumen colored lightbulb whereas the PL was a warmer, lower lumen bulb.
I'm glad the weather is cooler because I want to keep the PL in the chain now. Everything is so smooth, warm and still tight with the PL. And the texture seals the decision.
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