Looking For 90% of the performane of the super expensive cables for much less money
I currently have a system which consists of Vandersteen 5A's, THor Audio TP-150 tubed monoblocks, Thor Line Stage and Thor phono stage, Marantz SACD player SA-114 and will take delivery of the VPI Prime Scout with a Sumiko EVOS 3 Cartridge. I am currently using LAT International Speaker Cables, Power Cords and Interconnects. (They are no longer in business). I am in immediate need of turntable cables and would like to update my new speaker cables and interconnects. Not willing to spend thousands on this upgrade. Seeking to capture as much of the "magic" that the super expensive cables deliver but at a more realistic price point. I understand that I have really good quality equipment, but at this stage of my life cannot allocate mega dollars towards cables. Any suggestions would be greatly appreciated.
S/H cables are the best way to get top performance for much less. Previous top of the line cables are available for a fraction of their initial selling price - the only problem can be finding exactly what you want.
FWIW I've just re-installed my Straightwire Maestro speaker cables that I bought back in the early '90's. They were relegated to my parts box when I required longer lengths after moving from mono amps to a stereo unit. I bought some longer lengths of Goertz Mi-2 because it was economical and had some good reviews. Now with mono amps again I'm amazed at how good the Maestro cables sound - running bi-wire pairs to ATC SCM19's - the top to bottom clarity and detail is superb, as is spaciousness and imaging. I'm kind of mad at myself for tossing these cables aside more than 20yrs ago.
I would try signal cable speaker cables which I have very nice if your system is on the bright side they tamed my compression drivers in a very nice way.I have the Evo 3 on my table it is on the bright side for me, not sure how the vandys sound but a wicked nice speaker!I like synergistic research interconnects which I also have very neutral cable, again it's all about synergy within your system.I have tube amp tube pre which may factor into how the cables fit into my system.I am sure you can find good cables without spending s truck load of cash.
Have you noticed which cable brands are rarely sold as used. There may be a reason.
The performance of a cable is directly tied to the materials used and the design. Where the materials come from will make a difference in performance. Personally I like a well designed cable fabricated from US made materials.
Elizabeth, thanks for reminding me about Pangea!! I forgot I have a 14SEMKII, so I put it on my Krell Vanguard Digital Amp. Damn, if that sucker isn’t an amazing power cord. Warmer and more detailed with increased dynamics and a bit rounder (3d) sounding. Thanks
Phillyb is right! I’ve had $4500 power cords and I’ve used free PC’s that came with equipment. How they interact with your gear means more than any absolute quantitative differences between them!
I am happy with Pangea power cords. Just got another one. yippee! Sure a $2,500 two meter one might be a little better.I paid $250. for a nice two meter 7 gauge AC9SE mk2 Signature... one TENTH the price of the high priced stuff. Is it one tenth as good? no it sure is way more than 90% of what that 2,500 powercord can add.And it the 2,500 was just twice as good .. it would be worth it. Problem is, that 2,500 cord is only a portion of a percent better. at TEN TIMES the cost. Just call me a Pangea Fangrrl
Cables are and will always be a crap shoot. You just never know how they will interact/work in your system and money and cost as zip to do with how they will react with your system and how any power cord will react to the power supply in the gear its plugged into.
Always bring a cable home to try, if you buy used then you will not have that option, but you won't be out big bucks either. I tried many and you learn you start chasing your tail, and once you find a great match stop and enjoy it. Never heard god talk to me yet with any cable. Smile!
Many people have gotten great advice from audio professional Joe Abrams of Equus Audio and an authorized online dealer for MIT. He gave me great information and guidance as I bought up and up in the MIT line of I/c’s, speaker cables and AC power cords for my high end system. Made things easy to understand. If you look up MIT products for sale here you will find his contact info. Please say hi from happy customer Pete in Vancouver,BC. Good luck.
I’m sure there are some companies that aren’t on my list since it was never intended to be all encompassing, plus the list is a few years old plus there are probably Cable companies out there who would prefer to keep mum about using cryogenics.
I have auditioned this purple cable from a guy in Washington state that is affordable and great for the money. I wouldn't say 90% of a Nordost or Shunyata, but darn good bang for the buck.
No, I'm not superstitious concerning cryo. I just happen not to have any equipment or tweaks which use it. Synergistic Research believes in zapping cables and tweaks with "quantum tunnelling" which I think is the 2 million volt jolt instead of cryo. All my tubes are NOS which I purchased without cryo. If it works, great, I just don't have anything with it.
That’s weird. Are you superstitious about cryo? Do you believe it’s unnatural?
The performance of ALL materials is improved with cryo. Golf balls, razor blades, rifle barrels, trumpets, cables, wall receptacles, audio cones, tonearms, CDs and CD players. What have you. That’s all I can say for now.
Geoff-Could be Morrow. GroverHuffman uses a mix of copper and silver but I don't recall silver coated copper, maybe aluminum coated copper (1 strand) in a return in A/C cables. His formula uses a mix of materials and gauges just as his major shield uses carbon, nickel and tungsten powders bonded to the shield. I don't have any cryoed tweaks or electronics (tubes, wires, Synergistic Reseach tweaks) in my system.
Grannyring is incorrect...fact. Science or any scientific theory, lives or dies by the evidence and is perpetually in question based upon new information. How one hypothesizes carries no weight toward its validation. Peer review and repeatable experimentation are the foundations of good science. Faith can be a passenger in the process, but has no integral role for the acceptance of any given theory. Gaps are simply opportunities to learn and explore more about a theory or concept. Some people will fill the gaps with faith, while others simply look for more information.
Say, didn’t Grover Huffman diasavow his silver coated copper wires recently? Or was it Morrow? Also, cryogenics is employed by a great many high end cable manufacturers, who most likely do not use cryo to be part of the in crowd since there seems to be such an adverse reaction to Cryo. Geez, many people are convinced cryo makes metals and plastics brittle and even makes the sound worse. It’s almost like superstition. I’m not sure what Hyper Pure is supposed to mean - is that a marketing term? We have had 6 and 7 nines copper like forever. IIRC even 8 nines copper is not really new.
Right, my GroverHuffman cables do not use cryo treatments, hyper pure metal, various ways to align the conductors but insulation is one of the reasons his cables sound much better. His claim is mostly in the design of the cables, then the materials. It's the labor in the construction that costs the most, not the materials cost or their preparation. He charges what he considers reasonable for his efforts, not HEA prices (usually 10X higher).
The following is a post I made elsewhere, but also applies here:
One of the things I find extremely curious about much of the commentary on topics like these, is that the lack of first hand experience with much of what is discussed is shocking. It’s easy to be smug and resolute, or satisfied in ones own ignorance when your experience is limited. It is not helpful to expound on topics if ones experience is using zip cord and then going hog wild by trying Audioquest or Kimber. That’s meant in jest of course, but really folks...if you haven’t lived with a good cross section of what’s available then you have very little understanding of what can be achieved. I have owned a ridiculously large number of cable designs over the last 30 years, and yes, I even had Fulton Gold Speaker Cables (look those up boys and girls)! Can someone be happy with conventional cable designs that offer slight differences in their ability to alter the frequency response you hear? Of course, people love affordable bland products (usually high in salt). To gain a truly realistic experience however, requires innovation, combined with a love of music and an understanding of audio reproduction. A lot of what is peddled in the realm of cables is nonsense indeed. Cryo treatments, hyper pure metal, various ways to align the conductors and insulation materials etc... Do they all make a difference? Sure, but only minor deviations in the resultant experience and definitely not worth the money. As it turns out, the original big High End cable companies were on to something that could significantly enhance the audio listening experience. Ironically, they would become the whipping posts for most of the next gen cable companies that evolved and expanded following the newly tapped “Money Trail” that was discovered! The only real significant ground being blazed today is in wireless or digital technology. For me, MIT and Transparent cables still perform to a higher standard under most conditions in most systems. Of course, as is the case with Homo Sapiens, your perspective may vary.
My math was a little bit off. When I say that system performance can double three times that’s actually *eight times* the performance of when you started out. Sweet! Forget about the measly 3% stuff, people.
Yes, when I said 50% as good as the best I've heard, that's about twice as good or 100% better. As a teenager and in my 20's, I did not know how advanced my audio system could sound. Many people are just not aware of how great an audio system can reproduce music. In my youth, I never considered room acoustics which was a huge mistake. Audio stores didn't talk to me about it back in the 70s and 80s.
I'm 62 now and have had much experience, including as an amateur recording/mastering engineer. I know how much better (or worse) a system can sound.
The real percentage remaining for most audiophiles, from what I can tell, is probably about 200%. If not more. Heck, there were some weeks SQ would double when I got up a full head of steam. Or maybe easier to say it that the system performance has the potential to double or triple or perhaps quadruple. It’s just people frequently don’t know where they are on the performance curve, where they should go, or how to get there.
I strongly disagree concerning the few percentage points. My main system sounds 50% as good as a $1.4 million SOTA system. However, it is already as good as nearly all the systems I've heard in stores, friends homes and audio shows. Maybe 90% as good. My system is the whole enchilada as is. Unless one has compared it to the best, it is good enough for all those audiophiles posting on Audiogon. The 12 Omega E-Mat tweak did it for me. It elevated music reproduction to the highest echelons without costing an arm and a leg. I'm not looking for perfection. I'm looking to ameliorate annoying sonic problems and elevating the enjoyment so that I'm anxiously waiting to be enveloped with great music all day long.
Some or many audiophiles deem the hobby as one of striving for perfection. I feel sorry for them as that leads them to be unsatisfied most of the time. I'm using custom built amps/pre/phono/speaker cabling/turntable/cartridge/arm which are a decade+ old. The tweaks are the only newer items, mostly related to vibration and room acoustics. When I sit down to listen to music, I don't think about how I can make my system more enjoyable. I'm shocked at how wonderful the music sounds, even acoustic 78s.
Those last few percentage points are everything, it’s the whole enchilada.
It’s open ended to some degree, an 'impossible to reach' perfection... so each person has to decide themselves where and how, exactly... to try and bite down on infinity...
I don’t consider my system high end. I would still call it pretty good mid-fi. To me, high end would be having a pair of MBL Radialstrahler 101E mk II speakers in my apartment...That would be high end...
Elizabeth.....................LOL...........you and I swim in different parts of the pool!!...........I have a pretty nice rig, but kilo-buck IC's won't be part of the budget any time soon :0.................Guess I'll always wonder what that last few % sounds like........Good will have to be good enuff.................A man's gotta eat ya know :)
I used to have a variety of cables. Some home made with old Mark Levinson wire ($2ft) Kimber Hero, some Radio Shack OFC 8mm wire with Vampire Tiffany style RCA. Nordost Blue Heaven. . I bought a pile of Cardas Parsec when they came out. (I still use some) but the big fail for the Parsec was my need for a 7 meter XLR. Just not good. I made some homemade 7m and used that for a few years. (because I FOOLISHLY SOLD the Kimber Hero 7m I had used) Finally I jumped and bought a $3,200 pair of seven meter XLR (Kimber KS1116) I liked that so much I bought four more (shorter!) pairs. I have to say that pile of IC has moved me from sorta midfi to high end all by themselves. I do not think any of my recent purchases would have any value without the IC cables I now have.Oddly I still use the same Kimber 8TC speaker cables. Just fluffed up with a one inch cotton rope in the middle.
MIT cables will give you an amazing sense of soundstaging, tonal accuracy and sense of being in the presence of the musicians. Dynamics will also be stunning. If interested I can suggest an online authorized retailer who can get you anything you want for a great price!
I have an all Krell system evo 600 amps, evo 202 pre, evo 525av cd/dvd and lat-1. I have purist audio design cast interconnects and old monster cable speaker cables. I am looking to replace the speaker cables with something nice. I have demoed transparent reference and ultra. Any suggestions? My thoughts were the transparent reference, purist or stealth.
Just ordered a set, 3 sets actually, of Cabledyne Synergy RCA/RCA. Two of the sets, 1 meter, were demos and half price. The third is a half meter, N.I.B..................You can put me in the cables don't make much difference camp I guess. I do think there are audible differences, but I'm guessing they're subtle and system dependent. I'm done, for now, buying hardware, so I thought I'd stick a toe into the cable pool.
My current cables are a mix of cheap Monster, cheap AQ, and the throw away stuff that's comes free with everything, so I'm curious to see.......hear actually, if there will be a difference. Granted, the Cabledynes that I bought are hardly high end, at least from a $$$ perspective, but they are certainly better than the junk I have now, so it could prove interesting.
Never heard of Cabledyne until I joined up here. I checked out their site and they looked like decent, low(er) priced cable. They have a 40 day trial period, so worst case, I don't hear any improvements and send them back for the cost of shipping, can't lose :) Best case, they'll give me a new appreciation for cables.
I'll let you know what I think after they're in the system for a couple weeks.............
If anybody else is or has used them, I'd be interested in your experience
Everyone has known the value vs cost is a curve. Known it for many many years, even in HiFi.Back in my youth, I knew that $1000 equipment might seem ’twice as good’ as $500 item of equipment, but that it was in fact not really ’twice’. Today a $1000 preamp is nearly as good as one costing $5000. and the $10000 one is only a little better than the $5K one, but might be just in some areas.. And there certainly $12,000 preamps that are as good to many folks as some $100,000 preamp. Same thing with cables. I wrote before 90% is gonna be had with $29 a pop cables. It is the 95% that might cost $200 a pop. 96% 97% 99% that prices starts to jump. and if you want the 99,.9% WHOA...
My daughters name is Elizabeth so I have to agree with her namesakes post! As for the 90% equivelancy range...well, I’ve heard some pretty awful cheap stuff and horrid expensive stuff. Really do have to address system and cables individually. Assuming the cheap stuff can give you a high percentage of the best sound available is not accurate. Occasionally you can get close with a value brand though!
teo_audio, I disagree with your mathematics, I think we fight for more than a few percentage points. $0.25 cable and even $500 cable are very far apart.
anyway, back to the op’s original question. 90% of the quality for much less money.
That’s a given, an easy one.
It’s due to the point that 95-97% (I mean, pick a percentage, it’s not like there’s some known quantity and standard, here) of what a cable does, at the high end of things..is available for considerably less. The key being that it is only those last few percentage points that we fight for, in most any endeavor. eg, beer, or scotch or any commodity or goods. Tires, cars, and so on. All the same, relatively speaking... and only a few percentage points separate the cheapies from the extreme.
It plays out in cables the same way it does everywhere else in the world.
100% of what we look for plays out in the last few peak percentage points. Everyone’s got almost all of what is attempted at being brought forth, in broad electrical measurement terms, that is.. Even the $0.25 cable that comes with the $29 dvd player at Walmart.
Those last few given percentage points is where all the effort, brain power, and money is applied.
dave_b wrote: "
Why can’t we follow our muse wherever it takes us and not judge each other.
" my take on that problem is fear. Some folks need the psychological herd to feel safe. Anyone not just like them creates fear, since the person really does not know, but is relying on the herd to know, 'for sure'. So attacking anyone not 'just like themselves' is a part of that herd confidence. Folks who actually know, and have the confidence of it, have no need to get assurances from others. (It might be nice, bit not required, as it is for folks who are insecure) This makes it much easier to weather attacks, Knowing the person attacking is just afraid of you, of you ability to know, and not be dependent on the herd for support. My take on it anyway.
I put my cheap cables back in my system to see how much difference it would make. Of course even my Monster cable stuff was a bit over $100, but hey, ya gotta live a little! So, I could see how someone who didn’t care all that much about the low level detail and subtle dynamic shifts, or sense of space and lack of strain on loud passages could be satisfied. It’s all a matter of priorities I suppose. In the end it should be enjoyable for everyone. Why can’t we follow our muse wherever it takes us and not judge each other...unless you are trying to exert some sort of “Superiority Trip” upon those who require the subjective value contained within the Higher End marketplace!
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