Looking for the Honda S2000 of turntables


This turned out much longer than I anticipated, so I understand if you folks skip right over this post. For the rest of you, here we go.

I've been reading a lot about turntables for quite some time now. I have learned about matching tonearms and cartridges, resonant frequencies, compliance, azimuth, null points. And still I have difficulty choosing a model. Part of this is simply the number of choices available and the amount of disagreement between posters to forums such as this. But I think the biggest part of this is that one man's trash is another's treasure. People want different things from their turntables.

Look, there are folks out there, and you may be one of them, who are willing to devote time to tweaking and comparing and upgrading to squeeze every last bit of performance out of your systems. This is not a knock; it is clear you are passionate about your hobby and I am happy to see people get so much joy from their music. I wish I had the money, time and ears to conduct such experiments myself, but that's not me and it's not what I am looking for.

Here's what I am looking for in order of importance:

1. Tracking ability. I've read reviews to the tune of "this cartridge is amazing! Such detail, so dynamic! It doesn't track very well, but the slam!" Huh? If it doesn't track well, I don't give a fish how great it sounds. I've heard inner groove distortion and I want to minimize it as much as possible. Now, from what I've read, I should get a high-compliance cartridge because they track best, which means I should be looking for a low-mass tonearm. Except that manufacturers don't list the tonearm mass on their websites (I haven't found any, unless only the ones out of my price range do so) and the online tonearm database only lists mass for a few models, and of those I can afford, none of them are low-mass. Are there no affordable low-mass arms?

2. No fuss. I've read the arguments about VTA, and frankly I don't know what to believe. Some of you guys change it for every record, others never touch it. I want to think about my turntable as much as I think about my refrigerator; I want to open the door and the drinks to be cold. I want to play a record and hear music. If it's really a simple adjustment and makes an obvious difference, I'd consider it, but it's hard to know which of these suggestions are based in reality and which are just black magic.

3. Make my music sound good. I know, duh, right? What I mean is, I want MY music to sound good. I listen to R&B, Soul, and Rock through the 1970s. Up-tempo punchy music. I suspect a lot of these super expensive rigs are necessary to reveal the subtleties of symphonic works. Again, good on ya, I'm happy for classical fans, but I will never ever put a classic record on my platter, so those requirements go out the window. Think Little Richard, Sam Cooke, Beatles, James Brown, Led Zeppelin, Louis Jordan, Hendrix, Stevie Ray Vaughan, Ramones, Talking Heads, that sort of thing.

3.5 On the subject of revealing detail in recordings, not all my records are in pristine condition and I'm afraid too revealing a system may bring out surface noise to a level I'm not happy with. I've read reviews that label certain cartridges as "forgiving" Is this what they're referring to? Is this something I should consider when choosing hardware?

4. Price. I have $2000 to spend on a turntable, cartridge and phonostage. When I say I have $2000 to spend, it means I have $2000 to spend, not "Well, you can get this now, and then upgrade this and this." No, I have two grand and that's that. That is way more than I spent on my last table (MMF 2.1), so whatever I get will be a big improvement. And I don't WANT to upgrade. I want it to work great now and enjoy it with no eye to the future.

Some of you may be thinking, "Buddy, you should just stick to CDs; this hobby isn't for you." First off, while no CD-hater, I have heard the difference between vinyl and CD and it is appreciable. Vinyl playback can sound alive in a way I have never heard from its digital counterpart. Also, I already have a few hundred records just waiting to be played again.

The best analogy I could think of regarding my quest for a new turntable is cars. There are sportscars out there like Ferraris, Maseratis, etc. that are magnificent machines capable of unparalleled performance and fun. They are also, incredibly expensive and fussy. These babies need to be coddled and primped and maintained not just to run well, but to just plain run! Then, there's the S2000 which is an amazing car in its own right, nimble, attractive and best of all, it's a Honda, which means the thing just works. No constant tweaking and fussing over. Turn the key and off you go. Sure, it's no Lotus, but it's no Civic either.

There we are. Thank you if you've made it this far. I really do respect the collective knowledge of the members of this board and will appreciate any advice that may come my way.
shrevie

Showing 6 responses by elizabeth

The Technics fanboys are in force on this thread. Sorry, but the Technics is a tweaker's delight. NOT a good from the get-go TT. And telling him to buy it modded from Mr XYZ is like how does this guy know to trust your advice?
As for cars, I think the Honda S2000 and Mazda Miata are in the same boat.
As for turntables... good performance plug and play...
You need a dealer more than advice from the Fanboys for Technics OR Rega.
If finding a reasonably local dealer is impossible, Then getting a premounted cart, like the Rega with 3 point mount cart is better, or an internet dealer with a great setup guy (Music Direct has a great reputation)
TT's are a PITA for setup. Used to be anyone, almost anywhere could find someone to set up a TT. Now, it's tough, unless you can find a person to trust, you HAVE to learn to do it yourself.
For the money, buying used is better.
Sorry I have NO advice as to brands or models.. Your list of needs is too strict for used.. you would have to do the set-up yourself, if you added a new cart to a used TT.
Good luck.
(I own a Rega P5 with Benz Glider, and a used Kuzma/Stogi S with Dynavector 17D3, a Bryston 1.5 phono, an Audio Research SP-15 for Phono,)
I am a happy owner (since new) of a 1999 Contour SVT. I do not need KAB. I have a Rega P5 with Benz Glider, and Bryston 1.5 phono, also a Kuzma/Stogi S with Dynavector Karat 17D3 via an Audio Research Sp-15 used just for the phono section. First off the Technics arm is like stone age design. It does the job, but is certainly no beauty. the bearings are just adequate. I am fully aware of the fanbase of the Technics. same for the Lenco, Garrard... Decent but retro. I'll take a modern TT design. You guys are trying to sell this dude a Corvair and pass it off as a modern machine. Hah.
The counterpart to the Contour SVT was the BMW3 series.
The SVT is the key point. Bonderant used them when they came out as Race training vehicles. The mags raved about the SVT Contour, called it: "the poor person's BMW".
My old, beat up SVT can still outcorner 99% of the cars on the road.
Just today some old fart in his Chrysler 300 thought he could corner with me, his sorry ass nearly went into the wall after he hit the gas to keep up, then when he foolishly hit the brakes while trying to squeeze into the same space i was in on the ramp. I hit the brakes too, just to say if he smacked me i did all I could to avoid an accident. MY SVT doing 50 around the curve stopped without a wiggle. His chunk of shit bobbed sideways three feet off then two back and nearly lost control. I hate fat, crappy cars. He certainly had more horsepower, but what good is it with dinosaur suspension?
Blindsided. I would have NEVER known! i guess answering dudes who blow smack about my ride is off limits... Why don't you whine at Rrog too? or is because I: 1) dis' Technics and upset the Technics fanboys? or 2) drive an American car? and Rrog is a Technics cheerleader?
As far as the turntable goes. I can't find a new TT, including cart AND phono, with the attributes the dude who wants a Honda S2000 of turntables for $2,000. NO raises or future upgrades.
Your post dissing me didn't answer the question either. Your prior post lauding the Technics is just more fanboy cheering.
I have no dislike of the Technics. I just think it is, along with the other old school TTs, not anything near what the guy wants.(though THOSECAN have a good arm, just at way more that $2 grand) Your notion of what a turntable should do may differ. The arm on the Technics is just not good enough to be in the starting gate. And once you pull that arm and start messing around, it no longer is: $2,000. and no longer anything more than an experiment.
The automotive contrast is the Honda guy wants to buy a new Honda S2000 and offers the dealer $10,000 cash. What is gonna happen? no deal. For his $10,000 I saw a badly used Porshe.. a used Mazda, even a used high milage S2000. He wants a 'new' TT(AND cart AND phono) for $2 grand. He is gonna be disappointed, no matter what he does. I say, Save your money.
The closest is a used rega or VPI with PS and a used cartridge, with ?? phono section for a few hundred.
The KAB Technis is in the price range. It plays LPs. It has a fanbase where you can glory in owning one and be smug knowing others like it. But if you want what you asked for. The Technics is not it.
100 times? golly what a fantasy. Now lets count TT's for sale today, on the goN'
Technics, all types a dozen, Denon and Linn, same number about 12. Rega, over twenty. VPI even more. So we have either no one selling all these Technics if "hundreds" more per other brand, they would also show up as hundreds for sale? doesn't that make sense? Or, your theory is they are Sooo good no one would EVER sell it.. Hooey.
==========================================================
Clearly the most popular turntable brands are VPI and Rega.
==========================================================
Your 'sales of DJ turntables over the last 40 years is not an audiophile phenom. The "most popular" audiophile turntables are VPI and Rega. With many other brands gaining popularity. I am amazed how one post has attracted every Technics fan in the AudiogoN system. Do You guys email each other to rave about your favorite TT? Same thing happens over on Audio Asylum, Someone posts about anything concerning a possible Technics convert, and BOOM! the same half dozen Technic fans show up and praise the Technics.
I own a Rega, I don't give a damn if anyone buys one. I own a Kuzma, same thing, who cares.. You guys seem to own stock in Technics, or are KAB's buddies.
You 'might' keep the TT you have, buy a Benz Glider medium output cart for $900, put rest into used Phono preamp. For $1,100. you could get a pretty good phono section.
yes the cart would be more than the TT. but it would be a GREAT cart.
As for the Technics... the tsunami of responses would lead one to think everyone owns a KAB Technics or wants one... gee i wonder if it is a conspiracy???
Then at least a few Rega proponents chimed in.. I guess they got lost? At one and a half again as many Rega owners you might wonder where are they? donno... I just mentioned the conspiracy.. i can't fix it.