Tvad,
I read the comment about the Hydra on the webb. I've read dozens of threads on Audiogon and AudioAsylum in the past two weeks and I simply don't recall where I found it. If I should run across it again I will let you know.
Your comments about the positive effects of Hydra on the APL/PC are very informative and inspired me to think that perhaps I should experiment with the Hydra in my system sooner than I had planned.
Thanks Again,
John |
Boa2,
Thanks for your descriptive comments about the sonic synergy between the Mini Khan Plus and the APL. I also appreciated your relative rankings of the four PCs.
I agree with you that the end result is a product of all the elements in the system; and , I might add, the synergies between the different elements.
Perhaps the answer to my next question is already contained in your descriptive terminology, but let me ask the question in more specific terms. Amongst the many virtues of music that draw me in, some are more difficult to reproduce by electronic equipment. For example: delicacy, nuance, subtle microdynamics, the fluidity of the flow of the music, the coherence of the whole fabric, etc. How well does the Mini Khan Plus reproduce these characteristics? How well do the other three PCs fare comparatively? I would greatly appreciate your insight.
John |
Tvad and Ozzy,
Thanks for your input. I'm contemplating on getting a Hydra 4 or 8. Which one? That will depend on whether or not I will also use the Hydra for my amps. I read that Hydra 8 limits current. If that is true, I would then get the 4 for my front end only. If you don't mind, I have a follow-up question for the both of you: What are the sonic and musical differences in the APL when its PC (Statement or Source) is plugged into the wall versus when it's connected to your Hydra?
John |
Howard,
Your elucidation was helpful. In particular, I think your statement "The music feels slower, more open, with the energy of the players, and either it or I am more relaxed because I feel like I've been let in to the music." conveys the spirit of what I am aiming for. For example, a component that produces "smooth" high frequencies by compression could sound pleasant, but it doesn't let me into the music because the harmonic texture and bloom have been reduced. While enjoying that sound, I remain an outsider. I need to feel the nuances in the harmonic texture, the delicacy of the harmonic bloom, and the fluidity of the natural flow of music to be "let in to the music". Similarly, at the lower end of the spectrum, a boomy bass does not connect me with the vibrancy of the music. Based on your elucidation, the Mini Khan Plus is definitely on my short list.
Thanks Again,
John |
Steve,
Thanks for joining the thread. This is Cantate Domino John.
For everyone else's information, this thread was inspired by my experience at Steve's house. Steve was gracious to allow me to come to his house to audition the APL 3910. I drove 250 miles to get to his place. Shortly after we started the audition, he noticed that I was not very ecstatic so he offered to change the PC. That made all the difference in the world for me! For me, it was musical magic.
Enjoy the Magic,
John |
Sean,
Although I started this thread with the aim of determining a short list of PCs for the APL 3910, the related subject of power conditioning is also of immediate interest to me. So, I appreciate your expertise.
Your comments regarding Hydra's design seem reasonable. Is there a power conditioner on the market that incorporates all three major design elements you suggest? If I understood you correctly, those 3 elements are: 1. central junction point to provide "equal" availability of voltage and current for all outlets, 2. parallel line filter at the central point to clean up the incoming AC, and 3. parallel line filters at each outlet for addditional filtering and for back filtering. If no such unit exists in the market, what are the alternatives for the here and now?
One reasonable alternative is the approach Ozzy (above) took: separate Hydras for the major components. This is suggested by the Shunyata's website: "The Hydra 8 can be used in conjunction with other Hydras if there are multiple dedicated lines available. This allows for the complete isolation of high-current and low-current electronics on separate lines, while still benefiting from the performance and protection that all Hydras deliver." The drawback (for me, not for Shunyata) to this approach is the added expense for the additional Hydras and power cords.
I'm hoping you can suggest a more economic solution to conditioning the power for my four major components: (upcoming) APL 3910, two Jadis JP80 mono amps driving the Wilson Watt/Puppies, and one Krell amp driving the subwoofer (Wilson Audio WHOW). I do have three dedicated 20 amp AC lines to work with.
The only solution I came up with is a compromise. The Shunyata's website states: "All four of the Model-8's silver-plated duplex outlets are isolated with their own buss and passively filtered, allowing each duplex to be interchangeably utilized for either high-current electronics or noise-sensitive digital equipment." According to this statement there should be little or no duplex-crosstalk and inter-duplex contamination. Although there may be crosstalk and contamination between the 2 outlets in the same duplex. If that is true, then I could plug in each of my 4 major components into outlets in 4 separate duplexes to eliminate or reduce crosstalk and contamination, as long as I don't use the remaining 4 outlets. (Essentially, use 4 for the price of 8.) Also, as Tvad pointed out, Hydra's Venom Filters provide some back filtering. Therefore, that should reduce the pollution coming from the components. What this single unit solution does not address are the shortcomings you suggested that are inherent in a daisy-chain topology, namely, the availability of voltage and current may not be the same for the 4 outlets I will use. Any suggestions for an economic solution?
Also, are the above Shunyata claims achievable in their units? Or, is this just marketing fluff? It seems to me, and I may be wrong, that you are questioning a part of their claim when you stated "...there's nothing stopping internally generated noise from within a component from feeding back into the outlets that it is directly tied to via the buss bars." Did I misinterpret your statement? Or, did you mean to use the singular "outlet" instead of the plural "outlets"?
John |
Ozzy,
I'm curious about your experience in using two Hydras instead of one. What sonic and musical benefits do you notice when you plug in the amp into the Hydra 2 and the APL into the Hydra 8 instead of plugging in the amp and APL into the Hydra 8?
John |
Tvad, At each step, as you go from Hydra 2 to 4 to 6 to 8, additional filtering is available that is not available in the previous. According to the reviews, each successive model provides additional sonic benefits. If I recall correctly Hydra 8 is especially favored with digital sources. It's a game of trade-offs. For me, Hydra 8 or 6 with the APL, and 3 Hydra 2s on the 3 amps would solve the daisy-chain problem and provide filtration. But, when you add 3 additional quality PCs, the total price is high. With a single Hydra 8, the sonics will be slightly compromised but my wallet won't be as thin.
I was pleased to hear that you are getting good benefits with the Hydra in your system. Have you done any comparisons by adding other Hydras to your system? I'm also curious to hear Ozzy's experience with one verus two Hydras.
John |
Tvad,
Besides the FeSi-1002, the differences in the filtering are also in the Venom Noise Filters. According to the specifications on the Shunyata's product page: Model 2 uses a 4 element Venon Noise Filter, while Model 4 uses 7, Model 6 uses 10, and Model 8 uses 16. Whether these differences in filtration are reflected in Clement Perry's subjective experiences, is an open question to my knowledge
My current view is that if I get the Hydra 8, then I will plug in all my major components into it in the manner I described previously. However, I liked Sean's suggestion on the other thread for inserting parallel line filters at each of the outlets feeding the amps. If that turns out to be a viable solution, then using Hydra 8 for APL only is wasteful, but , probably more optimal.
John |
Ozzy,
Thanks for sharing your experience about using one Hydra versus two in your system.
Is here a sonic difference in using the APL with Hydra 8 versus with Hydra 2? If so, is the cost difference worth it? Or, let me ask it in another way. What motivated you to get the Hydra 8 for your digital source instead a Hydra 6 or 4?
John |
Rgs92,
Thanks for your observations about the analogue outputs on the Hydra 8. If I do get the Hydra 8, I'll keep that in mind.
John |
Tvad,
Since the numbers for both the Model 4 and the Model 7 were not multiples of the number of duplexes, I concluded that this was not the result of a single typographical error; but referred to the actual number of elements incorporated into the filter. In my mind, Perry's subjective differences reinforced my interpretation. Let me know how Shunyata explains the numbers.
John |
Tvad,
At this stage, I have not made any firm decisions on Hydra 8 or the power cables. I'm trying to do my homework, with the gracious input from you all, to define some options for power filtration and a short list of PCs as a starting point. And then, let my ear-brain-heart-soul determine my choices on the basis of experience.
Sean's suggestion for a parallel line filter at each outlet that will feed the amps sounds good. If it's viable, I may not need an AC conditioner for the amps, just some good power cords for my Jadis and Krell amps. Those power cords will be the subject of another thread. If additional filtration for the amps is necessary, Hydra 2 and 4 are the front runners in my mind. I definitely want filtration for the APL. I will contact Shunyata about the elements in their Venoms. Their answer may determine which Hydra I will settle for the APL. I'm open to trying the Foundation Research LC1 and LC2.
I'm also grateful for all your suggestions for my short list of PCs for the APL: Virtual Dynamics, Mini Khan Plus, AirSine, Wolf Carbon Source, Foundation Research.
Elrod EPS 2 sig was recommended on another website. But I couldn't find its price or website. Does anyone know?
John |
Samuel,
Thank you for clarifying the issue about the analog outlets in Hydra 8, and for providing the information about the Hydra 2. Both explanations are relevant to my decision making.
As you can see from my posts above, the Hydras are my front runners for power line conditioning. Which Hydra, and how many, hopefully, will be determined after some additional clarifications.
Besides the additional filtering on the analog outlets in Hydra 8, are there other differences in the filtering process in the four Hydras? The specifications on Shunyata's website product page list a 4, 7, 10, and 16 element Venom Noise Filters in Hydra 2, 4, 6, and 8, respectively. Do the differences in the number of elements determine differences in the quality of filtration, the type of filtration, or both? These are relevant questions for making an intelligent choice. Specifically, which Hydra would be most appropriate for just the CD player alone? Or, more realistically, what are the sonic trade-offs for a CD player with each of the four Hydras?
As for the amps, I have two mono Jadis JA80 tube amps driving the Wilson Audio Watt/Puppies and one Krell amp driving the Wilson Audio WHOW subwoofer. Since I have 3 dedicated 20 amp AC lines, it will be possible for me to isolate the high current components from the low-current ones, and possibly isolate the right channel from the left one. In view of your information about Hydra 2, it appears that using Hydra 2s on my three amps would be optimal.
I would like to be as close to optimal as possible, but I'm also motivated to be as economic as possible. The bottom line question is: Based on the experience of people within your company, and the feedback from your dealers and clients, what is the sonic cost if I just plug all four components into a Hydra 8 instead of using some combination of the Hydras?
Thank you in advance for your consideration of my questions.
John |
Tvad,
Samuel's information about the Hydra 2 are relevant to Perry's observations. Also, his explanation about the additional filtration in the analog outlets in Hydra 8, reinforces the positive comments I read and heard about the Hydra 8. I'm hoping his answers to my questions about the differences in the Venom Filters will be as clear and as helpful.
John |
Tvad, Thanks for your suggestions to look at the PS Audio Ultimate High Current conditioner. I did some initial checking and read some reviews. It has a small balun type of a filter. I'm hoping someone familiar with this type of a transformer could shed some light.
Sean, can you weigh-in on this, or if you have already done so in another thread, would you be so kind as to provide a link.
Ozzy, Thanks for your response. You maxxed out the Hydra 8!
John |
Rgs 92,
Your set up sounds great! I have run across reports by others who have been equally pleased with such a set up. Four Anaconda Alphas for my 3 amps and for a Hydra 8, together with one Anaconda Vx for my APL, plus the Hydra 8 itself will all weigh-in in the neighborhood of $12,000 at the retail level. And that's without taking the big advantage of my multiple dedicated lines. I'm just doing my homework (something my students shun) into the different possibilities before I can make such a commitment.
John |
Tvad,
Thanks for the links. From my first quick read, the UPC-200 is more promising than the Ultimate High Current Outlet. However, the PS comparison tool does not yet list the UPC-200. So, I was not able to get a quick comparison with the Hydra 4. I need to do some research.
Also, I'm waiting for Grant from Shunyata to respond to my email regarding my questions about the nature of filtration and duplex/outlet isolation within the different Hydra units. Since I have multiple dedicated lines, I would like to isolated the high-current amps from the low-current APL. And, if its is not too costly to isolate the right channel from the left to reduce cross-channel talk and contamination.
John |
Tvad,
You are not preaching to the wrong crowd! Note how many times I explicitly stated or implied in my posts that I am looking for an economic solution. If I was not interested in your suggested value-per-dollar alternatives I would not have wasted my time checking your links and reading the reviews (where available) for those alternatives. In my response to your previous post, I stated that I found the UPC-200 to be more interesting to me than the Ultimate Outlet precisely for the reason you point out in your last post. Namely, the two zones in the UPC-200 are isolated, which means that I could achieve my major goals with two UPC units on two dedicated AC lines. One to isolate the right channel from the left one for my Jadis mono amps. And on the other UPC unit, I could isolate the high-current Krell from the low-current APL. Based on Grant's comments about Hydra 2 and Mr. Perry's observations, it appears that Hydra 2 is more optimal for amps than the Hydra 4. At this point, it appears to me that Hydra 2 will not be able to isolate my APL from my Krell. Consequenty, I will need 3 or 4 Hydras to accomplish my major goals. And for each additional power conditioner, there is another power cord. Grant's clarification about the level of isolation and filtration in the Hydra units, will help determine the number of Hydras I will need. I also need to know more about UPC's balun type filter. The UPC-200 is new and I was unaware of its existence until you brought it to my attention. I am grateful to you for that. At this stage, the Hydras and the UPC-200 are the frontrunners for my power conditioners.
As with the power conditioners, I do not have a set price point in mind for the power cords. However, there is a bigger picture to my upgrade journey. Namely, I will need to upgrade the power cords for the three amps as well. Since I will not have a preamp in my sytem, logic dictates that I put the best PC on the APL. Based on the characterists of PCs described in this thread as well as several others, I would place Virtual Dynamics Night 2 (which I heard), Elrod EPS sig 2, and the Xindak gold as the front runners on my short list to audition first on the APL unit. The remainder of the short list consists of Wolf Carbon Source, Mini Khan Plus, Foundation Research, Shunyata, and VH AirSine. In view of the fact that I will need a total of 6 or 7 power cords, all the value-per-dollar alternatives are still viable candidates for an economic solution.
John |
Ajahu, Thanks for your input on the UO and your suggested correction for its tipped frequency spectrum.
Kana813, Thank you for your two suggestions. I'll check them out.
John |
Fplanner2000 and Tvad,
Was the cord you tried an Epiphany or the Epiphany X?
Fplanner2000,
In an earlier post you wrote that the Elrod Statement made a huge difference between the wall and your AC conditioner. Are you still happy with the Statement there? Have you compared the Statement with the Epiphany (or X) between the wall and conditioner? If so, what are the sonic differences?
Good Listening,
John |
Tvad and Fplanner2000,
Thanks for your responses.
Fplanner2000,
Other audiophiles have claimed that the Statement makes a huge difference from wall to conditioner, especially in a large room (which I have). So, its on my priority list. If you should have an opportunity to audition the Epiphany X, I would appreciate your observations. I am very curious to know how it differs from the Epiphany.
Enjoy the Music,
John |
Colesey,
Thanks for sharing your observations about the 'X' and the Wolff gain.
Good Listening,
John |
