msb Ilink vs. wadia 170i ipd docks

I had both pieces in my system and I have some thoughts about this post:

2. I did my comparison using an iTouch with my Wadia and the iPod classic with the MSB. The iTouch uses a solid state HD's which has no mechanical noise. This can't help but improve the sound quality. Which begs the question does a solid state drive reduce jitter in any way? As a side note I am not sure MSB could even fit their electronics into my I Touch(I don't know if I showed it to you but it's super thin).

3. I ripped my files with the WAV format(with a slightly higher sampling rate) vs. the apple loss-less on the MSB which also could be contributing to my belief that the Wadia sounded as good or better.

4. Optarchie ended the "comparison" in an odd way: "This iPod dock is pretty killer and I can't even imagine what it's going to be like when I hook it up to a great dac." He spent the whole paragraph saying how the MSB blew it away and then ends it like this?

5. Here is a response from someone else to that thread:"1,- AFAIK, the MSB is an ADAC (it is fed passing thru the iPod's DAC - such as Krell's KID) - not good. The Wadia should be better IF you connect it thru its coaxial digital OUT connector to a good DAC."

6. Is the Re-clocker in the Lector DAC good enough to correct a lot of the jitter produced by the Wadia (if it is in fact producing as much jitter as MSB claims) MSB claims they have reduced jitter to 7ps. My understanding is that 1000ps of jitter is considered good. We really don't know what the measurements are for the Wadia. I mean in fairness to Wadia we haven't heard their side of the story. MSB says the Wadia produces the most jitter they have ever seen right? Why don't they give an actual number so we can understand on what magnitude they are talking about?

7. MSB claims "the wadia grabs the digital stream AFTER apple touches it i.e converts the raw feed from the drive to spdif...etc. MSB modifies the unit and grabs the digital stream DIRECTLY off the hdd before anything is done to it, then with there proprietary tech they convert the signal to spdif and return a signal with a measured jitter of around 7ps. There is a big difference." We actually don't know this is true. That is what MSB says. I want to hear Wadia's side of the story.


7. In both cases I think the Lector transport is the superior transport if I want to enjoy a CD that was not released on LP.

8. The Wadia does have the added benefit of access to the video out in high def which is a nice feature.

9. I am going to call Wadia to day to at least get their side of the story. It's only fair.

10.Both transports produced sound quality that was between 95-98% of what my Lector transport produces. I picked the Wadia for the following reasons: 1.Sound is very close to CD when run thru Lector Digicode DAC and felt closer to analog to me than the MSB(I suspect the MSB's DSP has something to do with this. 2. The Wadia is 1/4 the price. 3. The Wadia allows me to use my iTouch which has none of the mechanical noise produced by a hard drive. 4. For reference listening here is my order: 1. L.P. 2. CD using Lector Digicode/Digidrive 3. Wadia for more casual listening.

Hens,

Given what you said about the jitter buster I am guessing that the Lector digicode has an excellent re-clocker in it because the sound I am getting is so close to my Lector transport it's amazing.

By the way if you can get a hold of the Yamaha crw-f1e external cd drive for the computer and use it to import your cd's into iTunes the Wadia will sound even better. This is an incredibly well built external drive that does not record any of the noise that the internal drives on the computer do.

I had the MSB and I have to say it had a digital sound to it that the Wadia does not. One of the reasons I went with the Lector DAC and transport is that they are the closest to analog that I have heard from a digital music player.

MSB claims that the Wadia produces around 10,000ps of jitter. I find this hard to believe unless my Lector has the most amazing re-clocker in the world. Also, there was an erroneous post in one of these threads. The Wadia does have an internal re-clocker inside(not just wires) that detects any signal that is not lossless and re-clocks it. For anyone that one who wants to argue about this there are plenty of reviews on the web that point this fact out as well as Wadia(all of whom I trust more than some guy on Audiogon with a screwdriver).

Don't get me wrong. The MSB is a nice piece but it's grossly overpriced. Of course this is all academic because I don't expect them to be in business much longer(I know one of their dealers) while the Wadia is selling like hot cakes.

I never said they were definitely going out of business but there are lots of big name companies that have been around a long time that are barely hanging on. I know people in the industry so I am not just pulling this out of the sky. I don't know if you have noticed it but we are in the worst economic crisis since the 81-82 and 70's recessions combined.

Anyway, thanks for your service in the army and enjoy your msb. In my system I preferred the Wadia. However, if you read my post there are other variables involved. I own an iTouch. It has a solid state hard drive that produces zero noise unlike the classic iPod you have which has a standard hard drive. Also, I own one of the finest DAC's on the market at any price(the Lector holds its own with the $65,000 Burmeister). The Lector re-clocks the signal. So this factors have to be taken into consideration.

At the end of the day who cares. If you love the MSB then that's great. I think it's a great product too. I just think the price is too high. Especially in these times.

Usarmyvet,

Am I correct that MSB can't modify the iTouch? I think it's too thin too put their DSP in but I am not sure. Just wondering if you knew.

Justin

I spoke with Wadia today to get their side of the story.

First let's clear up some misconceptions:

1. The Wadia re-clocks all signals before digital output.
2. The Wadia is not just a bunch of wires inside. It actually has 2 very large circuit boards inside. The reason they used such large boards was to isolate the video, digital, and analog sections from one another to prevent any leakage.
3. The difference between the MSB and the Wadia is that the Wadia let's the Apple chip convert part of the apple loss-less data into a format that a DAC can understand(no dac would understand the apple lossless signal. The Wadia finishes the process. MSB does the whole process thru it's DSP.
4.The engineer at Wadia laughed when I told him how much jitter they claimed the Wadia is producing. I will have the exact specs in a couple of days of what the actual amount of jitter the Wadia is producing but it is no where near 10,000ps which is = to 10ns of jitter.

It's only fair that we get the correct information to members of audiogon so that they can make an informed decision.

I am in no way putting down MSB. They make a great product. I just don't like propaganda. People shouldn't be lazy. Call companies and find out both sides of the story. Most companies appreciate people who take interest in their products and are glad to give out information.

Hi Usarmyvet,

What's your real name? Mine is Justin. Just like to be more personal.

Okay, the reason the engineer didn't give me the amount is because he was not the one who designed the 170i. That guy was out of the office yesterday. I am hoping to know by today.

I too spoke with MSB and got the same info about the msb. They also gave me misinformation about the Wadia. I don't blame them it's just part of the business. My experience has been that almost everyone fudges their numbers. I am going to take what Wadia tells me with a grain of salt. The same goes for MSB.

At the end of the day all you can trust is your ears. You like the MSB better and I like the Wadia. Who is right? Both of us. People like different sounds. Otherwise there wouldn't be so many audio companies.

Hens,

You make an excellent point. The Wadia does re-clock the signal. How could two different publishers come up with different measurements that are so different? 115ps is very low and 3000ps is very high. That's really weird.

Hens when you import your albums are you importing them as WAV files with 48,000kBS sampling rate?

The Lector DAC is one of the finest on the market. It's no joke that it competes with the Burmeister which is $65,000. So obviously the re clocking in there is superb because my iTouch sounds almost as good as my transport.

Hopefully I will have the manufacturers data today. Once I do I will post it.

Hey Guys, I love my transport so much that I am doing the following mods too it(see below). It will be interesting to see how it compares to my Lector transport and the MSB after they are done. The new clock put inside will reduce jitter below 2ps. This is lower than the MSB's claim of 7ps. Plus I will now be able to plug my Shunyata Python into the power supply. Anyway see the upgrades below.

Wadia 170i Transport mod done by ASi Teknologies. The following upgrades will be done: Power Supply Replacement and Upgrade-I will now be plugging in my Shunyata Python into it.
Ultra low impedance capacitor replacements DEXA UWB (Ultra Wide Bandwidth)
Ultra Low Noise Voltage Regulators Internal Wood Damping High Quality Vampire RCA Connectors for Digital output, DEXA Neutron Star Flagship Clock Upgrade
Here is a link to the site if you are interested in upgrading you Wadia: http://www.asi-tek.com/wadia2.html

Bombaywalla,

You are correct that jitter rates of 7ps or 2ps are silly in the sense that at that low of a rate I am not sure you can hear a difference in noise, resolution etc. At the end of the day I am paying for a much better clock that will reduce jitter. This is worth it for me.

Jsadurni,

The Forsell turntable smokes the Forsell transport. In fact the Lector transport smokes the Forsell. The Forsell was top of the line when it came out, but there have been a lot of tech. changes since then.

Usarmyvet91, I will let you know when they are done.

Justin

Jsadurni,

My local dealer was a Forsell dealer(before Dr. Forsell retired). He has the Forsell transport and the Forsell Turntable. Trust me the Forsell turntable is the best turntable out there. You can pick them up used but it's a great risk because there are so many parts that can be damaged.

He also carries the Lector digicode and digidrive(which I use for my digital setup) and trust me they are amazing. They produce the most analog sounding digital music I have ever heard. Also, my turntable is better than any digital rig out there. I am not being arrogant it's just I have heard the best and they don't do 50% of what my turntable does.

I hope one day we will have super high rez digital downloads because I love the convenience of my iPod setup but until then, when I want to do serious listening it's analog(unless I can't get the recording on Lp, which is rare now a days).