Music from hard drive better than CD?

Not sure how to explain it but my new computer set-up does sound qualitatively better than my McIntosh MCD 205 changer (which IS saying something). I'm sure many dedicated cdp's would sound better.

My computer using aes/ebu playing .wav files on winamp sounds as good or better than my Modwright Sony 999es using spdif or even RCA on bypass.

Exact Audio Copy is very good. So is Foobar.

I use the CDP to preview CD's or to play when I don't feel like letting the computer take time "booting up". I noticed that I do not need warm up time like I do with the Sony using RCA on bypass.

Let me preface this with just how ignorant I am with regard to most of this technoogy. I am challanged by the idea that a highly frictionaly induced, magnetic, vulnerable, hard drive system can be superior to a minimally frictionaly induced, optical, secure CD system. Re: Mac vs. Windows, for better or worse (and I think potentionaly better) convergence of audio and video is comming. In this regard I think Apple has way to go before they catch up with Windows XP Media Center 2005.

That's the beauty of a hard drive based system. Vastly greater convenience with ready access to your entire music collection without any penalty in sound quality. It worthwhile to take the time to use the rating, comment, composer and grouping fields to organize your music into playlist.

Well, I finally got my music server together and I am very impressed with the sound. I am using a G4 laptop, a Lacie hard drive, and a Waveterminal U24. Music off of the hard drive sounds excellent, and I LOVE having my music accessible via iTunes.

I use the slim server software, which you can get and run on it's own, and it works well. It can stream most any format of music (shorten, flac, wav etc) over the internet (you'll need a fat upstream pipe), handles 100,000+ songs no problem, and is fairly easy to use on multiple platforms (pure perl). You can also administer a whole collection over the web, and access your music from anywhere on the internet (works great on a lan).
It is a great piece of Open Source software regardless of whether you buy the hardware, and this is part of my motivation to get the hardware [shameless plug for Open Source].

http://slimdevices.com/su_downloads.html

Glad to hear you wrung some improvements out of the system. I'd be curious to hear the results of using the Squeezebox. I used to have a host of Audiotrons around my house run off my hardwired ethernet. I liked the search capabilities and the fact that the Audiotrons were autonomous and didn't require any software running on a server--each Audiotron indexes all available music files in public directories, maintains its own catalog, and pulls files down as needed. I gather the Slim devices require some server to "push" the data out to the Squeezebox.

The reasons the Audiotrons have fallen into disuse in my house are:

(i) Whenever there is a brownout or some kind of network fault, they have to reindex the songs, which can take a good 15 minutes with a large collection. Since the audiotrons were in areas I didn't use everyday, it seemed like they were reindexing every time I wanted to use them.

(ii) The indexing works great with mp3s, but tag implementation for .wav files is spotty and the only way of putting "tags" on your .wav files uses is manually using some audiostation software that isn't--in my book--reliable with large libraries. The tagging is also nonstandard, so the effort is audiotron specific. Ugh. While the Audiotron supports some other lossless compression schemes, I function in a mixed windows/OSx environment, and have to deal with the lowest common denominator between iTunes and Windows media players--right now that seems to be .wav.

Anyway, good luck with the Squeezebox. I think the SB won't suffer from (i), but I'd be curious what your experience with the software is related to (ii).

Thanks Edesilva, I had always assumed that there was a significant drawback to the long digital coax, even going into the "jitter buster" Meridian 518, so I replaced the long coax with an equally long USB cable attached to an M-Audio Audiophile USB box and a 1m digital coax into the 518. This setup sounds significantly better, and it is now comparable to the Meridian transport, but not quite there yet.

I'm thinking of trying the hardwired version of the slimdevices squeezebox to see if that makes an improvement. It is certainly a more flexible, user-friendly, device and having my entire music collection available at the press of a remote button is enticing.

>>Rsbeck: Do you run the Apogee mini Dac into a pre-amp or straing into a set of powered monitors?<<

I run it straight into powered monitors. There is no need for a pre-amp. This is one of the things I like about this set-up. The Apogee Mini-Dac has balanced outs and my powered monitors have balanced inputs. You go from computer to Dac to powered speakers -- very short path, lots of efficiencies, you eliminate the cables between amplifier and speakers, don't have to run the signal through a pre-amp, and it sounds great.

>>Can it be run into a preamp (like any DAC)? Thanks<<

It can be run into a pre-amp or you can go straight from the Apogee to your amplifier. The Apogee has a volume control and balanced outs.

Jman66 - there are some computer music players that also treat "related" songs differently if tagged that way. For example, I believe I read that you can associate two songs with iTunes so that one will always follow the other and the normal gap that appears between songs will be skipped.

Nnyc - a four meter spdif coax run sounds loooong. Probably not as bad acoustically as the 30' toslink run I once had, however. That was what convinced me to go USB. I switched things up and ran a long USB run with repeaters and a short coax run and the world suddenly got vastly better...

Jman66 - rip each track individually and play it back through foobar2000 or some other player without any pause between tracks. This is the normal way it is done in foobar. Foobar also allows you to crossfade the tracks if you so desire.

Sorry, I just noticed that EAC has already been mentioned here.
I believe there are 2 main issues that effect the quality of audio from a hard drive, which are 1) creating an accurate copy of the source material onto the hard drive and 2) accurately transporting the data off of the hard disk to a DAC. I think that if these are optimized, it is possible to beat any cd transport.
I have been using a 4 meter run of coax SPIDF from a computer into a Meridian 518 with shorten and flac files created from EAC copies and sound quality is excellent, though I think the length of the cable is a drawback. A 1 meter AES/EBU from a Meridian transport is still better, but I think if all things were equal, the hard drive would win.

It is also important to note that getting music from a cd onto a harddisk is non-trivial due to the vaguaries of the redbook format, so some quality will be dependent on the copy. There is more information about this at EAC (http://www.exactaudiocopy.de/) which seems to do the best job so far, and here's a good thread about both this and the squeezebox:

http://forum.audiogon.com/cgi-bin/fr.pl?icomp&1082299211

Rsbeck: Do you run the Apogee mini Dac into a pre-amp or straing into a set of powered monitors? Can it be run into a preamp (like any DAC)? Thanks,

Question, you rip a CD to whatever file format desired. What happens to songs that flow one into the other, such as the 1st two tracks on Pink Floyd's Dark Side of the Moon? Can the CD be ripped as one image (WAV) and played back through iTunes or Foobar2000 and still have access to a track list?

Jax2: You are right that the Airpot Express would work, but, I don't currently have a DAC. So, I do need a DAC of some sort first.

Rsbeck: If I decide I like interfacing with my music in this way, I will probably go with something like the Apogee. I might trying something a bit less expensive first though. If I get to the point of auditioning DAC's I will definitely give the Apogee a try.

It will be a few weeks before I get everything set up and I will report on my experiences throughout the process. Great thread! Thanks everyone.

The Apogee Mini-Dac has a Big Ben clock in it. I used an M-Audio Audiophile USB Dac before the Apogee and the Apogee Mini-Dac is many jumps in quality better than something like the M-Audio. Completely different ball-park. I also used the M-Audio just to convert the signal to SPiF so I could plug the computer into a Proceed AVP2 and use the Proceed's DAC. Again -- the Apogee USB Mini-Dac sounds way better. The computer plus Apogee just sounds great. Natural, detailed, organic, not digital sounding at all. I am extremely happy with it.

An even less expensive option, if you are running a Mac, is to use an AirportExpress module (about $120) which has an optical output that streams raw data and bypasses the DAC (you'll need a toslink cable). You can stream your music from your computer via either an Airport card or other wireless device, or via an ethernet cord directly to the AirportExpress. The optical output of the AE runs to your DAC and VIOLA! If you are looking for an inexpensive way to experiment and see if it suits you, that might be an alternative worth considering.

Marco

Thanks Edesilva and Jax2. I might go with the inexpensive wavelength to begin with and see how it sounds. This is all a bit of an experiment to see if I even like interfacing with my music in this way. If I like it I may then go for a more serious DAC.

Pardales - There are also the two USB DAC's offered by Wavelength, The Cosecant and The Brick, as well as the Grace M902. Of those, the Apogee is certainly the least expensive. I'm pretty sure there are a few others as well.

Marco

Pardales, my quick check of i-retailers indicates the Apogee mini-DAC will set you back about $1.2K. I use a Waveterminal U24 ($160). If you went that route, it would leave you a cool $1K to find a good DAC that could also be used for other things... $1K on the used market almost gives you a Theta Gen Va, for example, or a Birdland. I haven't A/B'd my Waveterminal/dCS set-up against the Apogee, but I still think the U24 route gives you more ultimate flexibility. The USB input of the U24 will let you put the device right next to the DAC and limit the length of your coax digital interconnect...

Okay, I think I figured out what I am going to do. I am going to use a Macintosh Powerbook as my interface and drive, and add a firewire hardrive to store my music in a lossless format. The only thing left to consider is, how do I connect the computer to the pre-amp portion of my integrated, with good D/A conversion in between? Thus far the Apogee mini-dac with USB seems like the only (and possibly best) way to connect straight from the computer into my pre-amp while maintaining a very high quality of sound. Any other ideas?

Henryhk: I have heard good things about the McIntosh (thought it is priced at around ($5500). Yamaha has a hard disk player coming out soon (HD 1500 -- I think) that will cost substanitally less than the MAC (under 1K). They have one out right now as well (HD1300, I think -- it is referenced earlier in this thread).

I am still trying to decide between a computer based system and a hard drive system like the Yamaha.

To address your question about toslink vs. coaxial: they both transmit the same spdif standard information so it's a matter of preference and what your equipment has. Some say that optical is more prone to jitter, but with jitter correction circuitry I'm sure you can see how any differences would be minimized to insignificant levels. A bit is a bit is a bit.

Two other commonly found digital audio transmission protocols are AES/EBU (which uses a balanced cable) and ADAT (which uses the exact same toslink fiber optic cable but has capacity for up to 8 audio channels).

Make sense?

Now to confuse matters even more, to get the ABSOLUTE best performance out of a digital audio setup you should use a master clock device such as the Apogee Big Ben:

http://www.apogeedigital.com/products/bigben.php

Yep, all that $1500 device does is generate ultra-accurate clock signals. Not many consumer DAC's offer word clock sync, perhaps because it's easy to reclock a single source more accurately than to synchronize multiple bidirectional audio streams that one might see in the studio. That's part of the home audio design I've never seen.

Henryhk, if you think about how quickly audio standards and software updates are happening, would you really want to be locked in to one manufacturer's way of doing things? The Linn and McIntosh units are definitely for people with massive disposable incomes that aren't familiar with computers. If that's you, then go for it and let us know. There's a lot more power and flexibility in going with a more open system, though.

Are there any good hard disk dedicated players? Rather not use a PC or Apple w/ full screen. What about the new McIntosh player? Any body tried it yet?

Thank you Ghunter. Both excellent links. The first one did help me understand it better and is well-written...the Benchmark data was a bit more 'academic content-rich' and I need to read it again with more time. I guess I've got the basics down, but mine is far from an authorative knowledge on the subject. That simple illustration of amplitude error caused by jitter in the first link says a lot. I wasn't getting that clocking information is sent with the signal via S/PDIF. I didn't see Toslink mentioned in my quick read of the first link, though they do mention S/PDIF optical...are they one and the same? Here's a passage from that first link:

Remember that you can synchronise clocks in digital equipment with more than just the classic BNC cable. Both AES-EBU and S/PDIF (coax and optical) signals carry clock information within the audio data stream, for example, and so recorders can often be synchronised using their input signals, rather than having to use dedicated word-clock cables.

My understanding is that Toslink is the least desirable of the ways to transfer digital information...would the clocking have something to do with that? If not, what is it about Toslink that is frowned upon? Seems like it would be favored being so inexpensive. Or am I just wrong there?

Marco

Marco, for someone who's learning you've got a pretty good grasp of this!

What you're talking about here is also known as jitter. Here are a few articles that explain what's going on:

http://www.soundonsound.com/sos/Apr03/articles/digitalclocking.asp

http://www.benchmarkmedia.com/appnotes-d/jittercu.html

Ah, thank you Ghunter. That explains the extra time it takes. So it's essentially double-checking that the data read on the first scan was correct, and if not, I assume it does a third and possibly a fourth till it gets some consistancy? Other than the possibility of actually missing some data, or adding some that isn't there, such an error as error-correction seeks to correct would not be an error that effects overall PRAT, as Nickway seems to be experiencing a problem with..true? In other words, the error-correction is not going to help with a frequency mismatch - wouldn't that be a function of the interface/communication between hard drive and card (in this case the Mbox), and DAC...or, alternatively, harddrive and DAC depending upon your set up? If the harddrive feeds the data at something less than 44.1KHz are the components downstream able to correct for that using a unidirectional connection such as S/PDIF, or Toslink? Or am I mistaken? Is there information sent with the data/signal, that tells the receiving end at what frequency it is sent? Sorry if my questions are pretty fundamental, but I'm just trying to understand all this stuff better.

Marco

Using error correction when extracting information from a CD is just an extra level of validation that you're getting a bit-accurate copy of the media. It takes longer, but worth it when you're looking for the best possible reproduction. You can think of it as a second scan of every ring, and you're right in thinking it has nothing to do with playback.

Apple Lossless Compression is bit-accurate and just involves a storage compression routine. Compression has gotten a bad rap from the audiophile community (sometimes for good reason) because of the inherent loss in mp3 and other compression schemes. When ALC tracks are played back, you get the same 16-bit 44.1 KHz signal that would be coming from a cd or wav/aiff file. Just like using winzip or stuffit to compress a Word document then uncompressing it later.

Hey Jax,

The 80 gig drive is just for music. My system and files are on another drive.

My power mac is not hooked up to my stereo. I just use it for listening when I am on the computer and for loading up my ipod. My computer speakers are Monsoon Audio's, which were made under license from Eminent Technology. I also use my Grado 225 headphones.

I tried using listening for differences between Apple lossless and AIFF with my ipod and my Grado's and I could not tell a difference. I could also not tell the difference between them on my computer speakers.

I can tell the difference between AAC and AIFF. I find that if I must use compression AAC at 256kbps is much better than MP3 of the same bit rate.

On my main stereo I might be able to hear the difference between AIFF and Apple lossless. I will have to give it a try.

Also the 80 gigs just hold my favorite music for loading up my ipod. I have about 400 CD's (and growing) so there is not room for all of them.

Also my Parasound (CEC) 2000 belt drive transport came in this morning. I was using it over lunch and initial impressions are really good. It's very smooth and has plenty of dynamics. I did find that an after-market cord made a big difference. I can't wait for tonight so I can listen more.

Cheers,
Nick

Hey Ghunter - I have a question for you about the i-Tunes settings: Can you explain further the "Use Error Correction" setting. I've had it checked, but always wondered just exactly what it was doing. I was under the impression that it only kicked in if there was an error in reading the CD being ripped, and not so much in the frequency for instance. Once the music is ripped to the drive, checking the error correction would have no bearing on playback, correct? I'm learning this stuff too, so your clarifications are much appreciated.

Nickway - you'll use up that 80mb drive pretty fast for uncompressed music, especially if it is holding your OS as well. I'd guess 80mb would only hold about 140 music CD's if there were nothing else on it. Once you figure out what's going on with your set up, I'd encourage you to do a comparison between your uncompressed .WAV or AIFF file and a compressed Apple Lossless file which takes up half the space. I'm not claiming golden ears, but I certainly could not tell the difference. I've read reviews (I think one may have been by Gordon Rankin either on AA or the Wavelength site), which confirm Apple's claim of a bit-for-bit reproduction of an audio file using Apple Lossless. I noticed Empirical Audio ranked them differently. I'd give it a try yourself and see what difference it may or may not make to your ears. Let us know too!

Marco

Thanks G,

I am going to try it again tonight. As far as the itunes setting goes, I had them exactly how people recommend. I am a nut about proper ripping.
I have a 80 drive in my Powermac just for uncompress music.

Cheers,
Nick

By the way, if a studio "pro" goes on the road to mix (quite a rare occurence as live and studio mixing are quite different animals) then they mostly take a part of their ProTools rig with them on the road and capture multitrack. These people are obsessive about sound, so stereo wouldn't be enough to capture what they'd be after. If it's just a matter of two channel, they'd just ask a roadie to pop in a DAT to capture the FOH mix and focus on the job at hand.

If they are doing it themselves on the cheap and don't want to move away from ProTools, they'd also more than likely use a rackmount interface like the Digi001 or Digi002 Rack instead of the mbox. Being on the road is a rough place and being tucked away in a rack means it will survive a tour while being on the desk means it is going to get destroyed.

Nick, I just want to make sure that you're not fooling yourself into thinking the mbox is any different than any of the other sub-$1000 interfaces out there.

At first it sounded to me like a jitter problem. Your DAC isn't correcting for it, so that's going to be the only difference between a cdp out and your mbox out, all other things equal.

Now, when you say that there is a difference through the mbox between music from the hard drive and a cd in the tray of the same computer then that points to a setting in itunes that somehow doesn't affect direct playback (which I didn't think existed). In the audio tab in iTunes Preferences do you have "Sound Enhancer" or "Sound Check" turned on? In the importing tab are you selecting "Use error correction"? Beyond that, the most important settings are going to be for the mbox.

Perhaps you should run Norton Utilities on your hard drive to see if there are any physical problems? I've done this test with a number of computers, several audio interfaces, multiple DAC's, and in studio and living room scenarios. They've always sounded equal to my ears (and barring any physical defects in your equipment) they should be. Technically, there are well-defined validity checks built in to hard drives so that things like this don't happen.

Hello Ghunter

I have read the manual and I am not knocking it. Please don't get me wrong, I think its great for the price. I should also point out that while it is expensive it does come with a full version of Pro Tools which is worth quite a few hundred in itself.

I don't think it's as good as their more expensive equipment. You of course get what you pay for. But it's a great tool as part of a home studio on the cheap.
I know many pro sound techs that take them on tour. They use them for making a personal 2 ch mix of concert in order to help them get better sound the next time around.

So I am not sure where you got the idea that I am knocking it or I don't know how to use it.

All I am saying is, I am not convinced about using a PC based audio system.
If you re-read my above post, I have come to the conclusion thats the Mbox is not the weak link. I think its a problem with computer HD itself.

Everyones milage with very, just for me with the equipment I had it was not working.
Great sound, but no music (lack of PRaT). I would really like to hear your system because like I said, I want this to work.

On a side note: My wadia does not upsample past 44.1 or 48 but it is 18 bit.

Just out of curiosity, what other equipment are you using?

Cheers,
Nick

First, you're falling for the marketing that Digidesign wants you to. True, their high-end gear is used in pro studios around the world. Does this mean that their low-end gear sounds as good? (nope) The mbox is NOT used in pro studios around the world, as it's a prosumer device at best.

Second, the mbox has a horrible reputation amongst Mac musicians for driver issues (and being overpriced).

Third, every audio interface worth more than a hundred dollars has a driver configuration process. Nick, looks like it's time for you to RTFM :) If you want to use toys that come from the studio world, you should learn how to use them before knocking them.

Hi Guys,

All the settings are at the default. It does not give me an option for the buffer size. I get the default option of 512 (which I presume is Kilobytes.)

You can view the unit on the Digidesign site:
http://www.digidesign.com/products/mbox/

Digidesign makes some VERY high quality expensive gear.
They are a world class company used by many famous studios.
The Mbox is the cheapest item they make and it costs $500.

I very much doubt the Mbox is the weak link.
My reasoning for that is:
1. Music sounded better coming off the CD laptop drive rather than the HD.
- I believe point 1 rules out the mbox as the culprit as well as everything forward in the chain. Which only leaves the computer and data files themselves.
2. The Mbox is of a high caliber and is used by major recording professionals world round.

I would be willing to try another unit. But based off of point 1, I think the timing of the music is lost coming off the HD. It just does not have PRaT. I really did want this to work.
Absolutely EVERYTHING other than the PRAT is world class and I have NOT heard better period. Just the PRat is missing in action. I am most disappointed in this. I really wanted to go down this road.

I am going to give it another shot tomorrow. Seeing as I believe the HD is the culprit I am going to try all the formats. Before I was using an uncompressed AIFF along with some Apple loss-less.
But seeing as that is what is recommended by Steve at Empirical as well as Wavelength audio I don't think it's going to fix it.

I also have a Parasound (CEC) transport coming. If I am lucky I will get it tomorrow.
My hope was because my Wadia has multiple inputs. I was going to use the Parasound for discs when needed and the computer for most playback, But due to my experimenting I will probably end up using the Parasound elusively.

I will post my results tomorrow.
Cheers,
Nick

If someone want to PM me their number maybe I can call them tomorrow and double check everything over the phone. Please also include you time zone. I am in the Mountain Standard zone.

Nick,

A few suggestions:

1. Set the buffer for the MBox to the highest setting. (why don't you report all of the settings back here and we can maybe see if something else is up)

2. Unsure which Wadia you're using, but what settings are available on it? Upsampling all the way to 192k on my MF DAC destroys the PRaT and makes everything overanalytical as well, so I leave it at 96k.

Graham

Thanks for the clarification Nick. I'm not familiar with the Digitech unit. It's too bad it doesn't work for you as PC audio can be oh so convenient (having your entire collection at your fingertips to mix and match as you please). If I were you I would indeed try a different route. I really doubt it is the hard drive itself, but instead I'd think it was the interface between hard-drive, Digitech, and or DAC. Somewhere in the loop it sounds like the timing is getting lost.

Marco

Wow, quite a long thread here. Glad I wandered over from the other forums.

I've been fully hard-drive based for about a year. The system is based around an Apple iBook G4-1.1Ghz with just under a terabyte of firewire hard drives holding approx. 1500 CD's in Apple Lossless format. I tried the Airport Express spdif out, but in the end I preferred a USB extender cable running along the baseboards feeding an M-Audio Audiophile USB then into a Musical Fidelity A32.24 DAC.

The Airport Express didn't maintain digital sync which inserted a 2-3 second space every time you accessed a new track (nothing when playing sequentially). That's really the only reason I went the USB route.

Can it work? Absolutely!

Can it sound great? This setup replaced a Naim CDX2 with XPS2 (over $10k list price) and my wife and I both agree that the sound quality is just different, neither better nor worse than the Naim. That's saying something given the huge price difference.

Graham

Hello Jax.

I read over the links you sent me. I did indeed set everything up correctly.

I would be willing to give computer playback another chance. But until I hear it with good PRAT, will not be investing it it. It's really a shame. I was so close, but yet ever so far away.

Also, just a side note. I don't think the Mbox will upsample the outgoing signal. The Mbox is capable of 24/96 but thats more a function for the inputs. It is actually more of a pro-audio tool for two channel recording. I believe the digial output is non upsampled.

Happy Listening.
Nick

...furthermore, you may also want to reference this page for optimum setup for Mac and see if the information corresponds to what you've been using.

Marco

Nick - Did you reference the Wavelength link I provided? Here's some info from that link:

Basically the DAC has a single digital USB input. USB unlike SPDIF is bidirectional and therefore has error correction and buffering on both sides. This happens automatically so the data on the disk is identical to what is going out all the time. Also since this interface is asynchronous the clocking problems associated with SPDIF go away. What happens is... On power up of the computer the 2 devices negotiate services. In this case the Cosecant tells the computer it can do 16 bit audio at 32K, 44.1K and 48K. Since the USB receiver only has to handle these 3 frequencies, the clocking to the separate DAC IC has almost no jitter. SPDIF actually has to be synched to the exact frequency of the transport (i.e. if the transport is working at say 44.0896K instead of 44.1K the dac has to sync to that frequency). Therefore the jitter problems of SPDIF almost go away using USB. So using USB we have a zero error protocol to link the computer to the DAC and very low jitter what else..... The Cosecant is platform independent also OS independent. Any computer that has USB output will be able to hook up to the Cosecant without software drivers. Just select the Cosecant for Audio Output in your system preferences or control panel and your done.

I believe your Digitech is acting as an upsampling soundcard. Regardless of upsampling it is processign the data from the HD and sending it on to the DAC via S/PDIF (unidirectional). My guess is that the 'compromise' lies in the Digitech.

Marco

Hi Guys,

To answer some of your questions. The Mbox, takes its power over the USB cable as well as passing the information via it. I used the SPDIF digital out on the mbox to go to my Wadia.

On the laptop we set everything up for the best sound quality as recommended by Steve Nugget of Empirical Audio in his posts.

What it sounded like was the timing of the music was destroyed when coming off the hard drive. There was nothing else on the laptop running when we were doing this. We even turned off the screen to help keep noise down. We tried different file formats and nothing seemed to help.

When we tried to listed to the same disc playing in the CD drive it sounded better. It did not have the all of the virtues (dynamics, staging, etc..) of the harddrive, but it did have timing (although not that great).
But what good is everything else if the music is lacking timing?

So the fact that it sounded better of the CD drive then the HD makes me believe their was nothing wrong with the Mbox. It makes me think that music coming off the HD itself is the problem. Like I said, everything (and I mean everything, detail, depth etc...) was better when coming off the HD, BUT the timing was nowhere to be found. If the timing could be made right I would be a believer. Like I said, I really wanted it to work. I guess the old saying is right: There is no free lunch.

Have you guys ever personally tried doing this? If so what were your results?
Please tell me I am wrong, as I would really like to be. However somehow I doubt the timing issues will be fixed anytime soon.

Cheers,
Nick

Nickway - If timing errors occur it would be on the digital output. I'm not familiar with the apple OS. Does apple OS have mixer issues like WinXP? Is there something in the apple OS that would approximate kernel streaming or ASIO in WinXP. When I first went to a DigAudPC the increase in dynamic range was fantastic.

My guess is music coming off the hard drive looses it timing?

As I understand it, this is the advantage of using a USB DAC (I think the DigiDesign unit is just a processor that upsamples(?) and sends the digital feed to the DAC - much like a soundcard).

Since USB is bidirectional, using a USB DAC with a direct USB connection to the HD allows timing errors to be addressed both at the HD and at the DAC. Using optical, or S/PDIF output to the DAC you are limited as these are both unidirectional feeds. I don't know much about the Digidesign unit, but just looking at the specs it would occur to me that is using the USB for power, but I'm not getting how it is providing 24-bit S/PDIF output unless it is upsampling. Standard USB is only capable of passing 16-bit data. USB 2.0 may pass more. Check out the basic information on the Wavelength Website. You may contact Gordon Rankin via that site and inquire further. I just notice that the specs on the DigiDesign unit says "100% USB Powered"....does that mean it is passing information as well, or are you getting your digital output elsewhere?

I believe you on the timing errors making or breaking the reproduction of music.

Marco

I just tried doing this today for the first time in my system.
I must say overall that I did not like it. I really hoped I would. I wanted to like, I tried to like it. But for me it just didn't cut it.

I used a iBook with a Digidesign Mbox and my Wadia DAC.
All files were uncompress and in Raw AIFF form.

Technically speaking everything sounded better. The soundstage and imagining and depth were great. They were in fact better than I have ever heard them. But the PRAT was gone!

I just could not get involved in the music. When we tried a disc strait from the CD drive it sound better (PRAT wise). My guess is music coming off the hard drive looses it timing?

It's hard to describe, and you kinda have to hear it. It should of been great. Every aspect was better (bass, clarity, soundstaging, etc), but the music was lost. It sounded more like hifi and less like music. Over all it was a let down.

A friend was with me when we did this test. He has about a 10K 2 channel system. In the end we both felt the same way.

Has anyone else experience this?

Of course YMMV, but for me I am going to stick with my CD player. I won't be adopting HD playback any time soon.

Happy listening,
Nick

noise issues, see www.silentpcreview.com

Why the back and forth on Apple vs. MS. I use Linux with a USB sound card and USB hard drives, the sound card is only to connect to my very satisfactory Audio Mirror DAC. This Linux system runs on a fanless VIA chip (mini itx). No virus possibilities and is internet connected a CDDB data base that automatically sets up folders with titles etc. just before ripping to the hard drive. So get a cheap PC and free Linux. PC audio can be had very inexpensively.
~tom

No I did not miss your first paragraph. I did ignore it however, but since you bring it to task:

Regarding the inexpensive Dell you mention:

It relies upon allocating a good part of it's RAM for graphics (states 64mb). The iMac has an excellent graphics card and does not need to rely upon RAM for graphics. The Mac can easily support an external monitors with its dedicated 32mb of RAM on the graphics card.

It has a slower Celeron processor (as you point out), while the Macs G4 processor is very fast indeed.

Wireless card is an option on the PC and standard on the Mac.

The Dell has no firewire ports at all, while the iBook has both USB 2.0 and Firewire.

As far as the smaller screen I actually prefer a 12 inch screen and compact size and weight. The iBook weighs 4.9 lbs while the bigger Dell is 6.3lbs.

I won't go through looking up the same details on the desktop example you sited as I'm sure it would come out the same: you get what you pay for.

Marco