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My Long List of Amplifiers and My Personal Review of Each!

So I have been in a long journey looking to find the best amplifiers for my martin logan montis. As you know, the match between an amplifier and speakers has to be a good "marriage" and needs to be blend exquisitely. Right now, I think I might have found the best sounding amplifier for martin logan. I have gone through approximately 34-36 amplifiers in the past 12 months. Some of these are:

Bryston ST, SST, SST2 series
NAD M25
PARASOUND HALO
PARASOUND CLASSIC
KRELL TAS
KRELL KAV 500
KRELL CHORUS
ROTEL RMB 1095
CLASSE CT 5300
CLASSE CA 2200
CLASSE CA 5200
MCINTOSH MC 205
CARY AUDIO CINEMA 7
OUTLAW AUDIO 755
LEXICON RX7
PASS LABS XA 30.8
BUTLER AUDIO 5150
ATI SIGNATURE SERIES 6005

With all that said, the amplifiers I mentioned above are the ones that in my opinion are worth mentioning. To make a long story short, there is NO 5 CHANNEL POWER AMP that sounds as good as a 3ch and 2ch amplifier combination. i have done both experiments and the truth is that YOU DO lose details and more channel separation,etc when you select a 5 channel power amplifier of any manufacturer.
My recollection of what each amp sounded like is as follows:

ATI SIGNATURE SERIES 6005 (great power and amazing soundstage. Very low noise floor, BUT this amplifiers NEEDS TO BE cranked up in order to fully enjoy it. If you like listening at low volume levels or somewhat moderate, you are wasting your time here. This amp won’t sound any different than many other brands out there at this volume. The bass is great, good highs although they are a bit bright for my taste)

NAD M25 (very smooth, powerful, but somewhat thin sounding as far as bass goes)
Bryston sst2(detailed, good soundstage, good power, but can be a little forward with certain speakers which could make them ear fatiguing at loud volumes)

Krell (fast sounding, nice bass attack, nice highs, but some detail does get lost with certain speakers)

rotel (good amp for the money, but too bright in my opinion)

cary audio (good sound overall, very musical, but it didn’t have enough oomph)

parasound halo (good detail, great bass, but it still holds back some background detail that i can hear in others)

lexicon (very laid back and smooth. huge power, but if you like more detail or crisper highs, this amp will disappoint you)

McIntosh mc205 (probably the worst multichannel amp given its price point. it was too thin sounding, had detail but lacked bass.

butler audio (good amplifier. very warm and smooth sweet sounding. i think for the money, this is a better amp than the parasound a51)

pass labs (very VERY musical with excellent bass control. You can listen to this for hours and hours without getting ear fatigue. however, it DOES NOT do well in home theater applications if all you have is a 2 channel set up for movies. The midrange gets somewhat "muddy" or very weak sounding that you find yourself trying to turn it up.

classe audio (best amplifier for multi channel applications. i simply COULDNT FIND a better multi channel amplifier PERIOD. IT has amazing smoothness, amazing power and good bass control although i would say krell has much better bass control)

Update: The reviews above were done in January 2015. Below is my newest update as of October 2016:



PS AUDIO BHK 300 MONOBLOCKS: Amazing amps. Tons of detail and really amazing midrange. the bass is amazing too, but the one thing i will say is that those of you with speakers efficiency of 87db and below you will not have all the "loudness" that you may want from time to time. These amps go into protection mode when using a speaker such as the Salon, but only at very loud levels. Maybe 97db and above. If you don’t listen to extreme crazy levels, these amps will please you in every way.
Plinius Odeon 7 channel amp: This is THE BEST multichannel amp i have ever owned. Far , but FAR SUPERIOR to any other multichannel amp i have owned. In my opinion it destroyed all of the multichannel amps i mentioned above and below. The Odeon is an amp that is in a different tier group and it is in a league of its own. Amazing bass, treble and it made my center channel sound more articulate than ever before. The voices where never scrambled with the action scenes. It just separated everything very nicely.
Theta Dreadnaught D: Good detailed amp. Looks very elegant, has a pleasant sound, but i found it a tad too bright for my taste. I thought it was also somewhat "thin" sounding lacking body to the music. could be that it is because it is class d?
Krell Duo 300: Good amp. Nice and detailed with enough power to handle most speakers out there. I found that it does have a very nice "3d" sound through my electrostatics. Nothing to fault here on this amp.
Mark Levinson 532H: Great 2 channel amp. Lots of detail, amazing midrange which is what Mark Levinson is known for. It sounds very holographic and will please those of you looking for more detail and a better midrange. As far as bass, it is there, but it is not going to give you the slam of a pass labs 350.5 or JC1s for example. It is great for those that appreciate classical music, instrumental, etc, but not those of you who love tons of deep bass. It is articulate sounding too
Krell 7200: Plenty of detail and enough power for most people. i found that my rear speakers contained more information after installed this amp. One thing that i hated is that you must use xlr cables with this amp or else you lose most of its sound performance when using RCA’s.
Krell 402e: Great amp. Very powerful and will handle any speaker you wish. Power is incredible and with great detail. That said, i didn’t get all the bass that most reviewers mentioned. I thought it was "ok" in regards to bass. It was there, but it didn’t slam me to my listening chair.
Bryston 4B3: Good amp with a complete sound. I think this amp is more laid back than the SST2 version. I think those of you who found the SST2 version of this amp a little too forward with your speakers will definitely benefit from this amp’s warmth. Bryston has gone towards the "warm" side in my opinion with their new SST3 series. As always, they are built like tanks. I wouldn’t call this amp tube-like, but rather closer to what the classe audio delta 2 series sound like which is on the warm side of things.
Parasound JC1s: Good powerful amps. Amazing low end punch (far superior bass than the 402e). This amp is the amp that i consider complete from top to bottom in regards to sound. Nothing is lacking other than perhaps a nicer chassis. Parasound needs to rework their external appearance when they introduce new amps. This amp would sell much more if it had a revised external appearance because the sound is a great bang for the money. It made my 800 Nautilus scream and slam. Again, amazing low end punch.
Simaudio W7: Good detailed amp. This amp reminds me a lot of the Mark Levinson 532h. Great detail and very articulate. I think this amp will go well with bookshelves that are ported in order to compensate for what it lacks when it comes to the bass. That doesn’t mean it has no bass, but when it is no Parasound JC1 either.
Pass labs 350.5: Wow, where do i begin? maybe my first time around with the xa30.8 wasn’t as special as it was with this monster 350.5. It is just SPECTACULAR sounding with my electrostatics. The bass was THE BEST BASS i have ever heard from ANY amp period. The only amp that comes close would be the jC1s. It made me check my settings to make sure the bass was not boosted and kept making my jaw drop each time i heard it. It totally destroyed the krell 402e in every regard. The krell sounded too "flat" when compared to this amp. This amp had amazing mirange with great detail up top. In my opinion, this amp is the best bang for the money. i loved this amp so much that i ended up buying the amp that follows below.
Pass labs 250.8: What can i say here. This is THE BEST STEREO AMP i have ever heard. This amp destroys all the amps i have listed above today to include the pass labs 350.5. It is a refined 350.5 amp. It has more 3d sound which is something the 350.5 lacked. It has a level of detail that i really have never experienced before and the bass was amazing as well. I really thought it was the most complete power amplifier i have ever heard HANDS DOWN. To me, this is a benchmark of an amplifier. This is the amp that others should be judged by. NOTHING is lacking and right now it is the #1 amplifier that i have ever owned.
My current amps are Mcintosh MC601s: i decided to give these 601s a try and they don’t disappoint. They have great detail, HUGE soundstage, MASSIVE power and great midrange/highs. The bass is great, but it is no pass labs 250.8 or 350.5. As far as looks, these are the best looking amps i have ever owned. No contest there. i gotta be honest with you all, i never bought mcintosh monos before because i wasn’t really "wowed" by the mc452, but it could have been also because at that time i was using a processor as a preamp which i no longer do. Today, i own the Mcintosh C1100 2 chassis tube preamp which sounds unbelievable. All the amps i just described above have been amps that i auditioned with the C1100 as a preamp. The MC601s sound great without a doubt, but i will say that if you are looking for THE BEST sound for the money, these would not be it. However, Mcintosh remains UNMATCHED when it comes to looks and also resale value. Every other amp above depreciates much faster than Mcintosh.

That said, my future purchase (when i can find a steal of a deal) will be the Pass labs 350.8. I am tempted to make a preliminary statement which is that i feel this amp could be THE BEST stereo amp under 30k dollars. Again, i will be able to say more and confirm once i own it. I hope this update can help you all in your buying decisions!


whitecamaross

Showing 50 responses by whitecamaross

whitecamaross's avatar
whitecamaross OP
1,499 posts
 
Maybe... I’ve already started to talk to the wife about what makes me most sense in terms of content and how to go about topics, review, conclusion etc.  I’m brainstorming right now but I may end up doing it. 
whitecamaross's avatar
whitecamaross OP
1,499 posts
 
Stick around Ron. I’ve got pretty interesting stuff coming in the next 30 days or so. I’ve been crazy busy with my daughter and work. I actually hadn’t listened critically for the past two weeks until today. 
That said, there will be some Monos coming for my mágicos. Oh, guess what I saw today at the wireworld factory? Magico s3 .... that’s what they are using I believe to voice their speaker cables. I was shocked actually. 
whitecamaross's avatar
whitecamaross OP
1,499 posts
 
UPDATE: I am in the middle of moving so i won't be doing any updates until probably the end of the month. 
whitecamaross's avatar
whitecamaross OP
1,499 posts
 
Update:
Today i made the following changes:
1. bi wired the speakers by using a pair of wire world silver 7 on the highs and wire world eclipse 7 on the lows
2. added a ps audio direct stream dac with bridge 2 (brand new, no broken in)
3. Streaming mqa from tidal

What i am hearing is UNREAL. I can't believe how massive the change has been with those tweaks. Insane depth, detail, soundstage, instrument separation, midrange is dead center and everything is just "cleaner". 
I am so glad i did not get rid of my xp30 because i was finding it a tad bright when i was using the aurender with oppo 205 as my dac. 
I gotta tell you, with this direct stream dac it feels as if the artist is in the middle of my living room and instruments almost pop out in a 3d kind of way. 
I suspect things will get better as i keep breaking in this dac. So far, i am floored to say the least. Unreal synergy i am hearing at this time. 
Also, i tried some expensive straight wire speaker cables and did not like them at all. I found them too " dull or boring" sounding. 
whitecamaross's avatar
whitecamaross OP
1,499 posts
 
i had a chance to get some cardas cables, but i am not quite sure yet. The issue with cables is that it is too difficult to get your money out if you end up not liking them. This is is why i am going to take my time choosing cables and perhaps working with dealers that allow me to demo cables in my own home. 

whitecamaross's avatar
whitecamaross OP
1,499 posts
 
So far i have discovered that the cremonese sound FAR BUT FAR SUPERIOR when biwiring them using the xa200.5 monos. It is like they send you a level of information that is incredible. 
I am still playing with wire world silver eclipse and eclipse 7. The results are very good, but of course i don't really have anything else to compare it to. 
In terms of sound, i have never ever heard my set up sound this good. It is like someone gave me a new set of ears to be honest. 

whitecamaross's avatar
whitecamaross OP
1,499 posts
 
MY OPINION: having owned sonus Amati futura and Olympica 3s, they were the most lethargic, anemic  and non dynamic speakers I've heard. I also heard the new sonus Amati tradition and they sound better than the other 2 models I mentioned. 
That said, the cremonese DEMOLISH and SQUASH all of the above. It's actually a laughing matter. Not even close in any category. 
The only other speaker that left me with an amazing impression was the Martin Logan 15a. 
I will say it again, in my opinion the best speaker for the money that sonus faber currently manufactures is the cremonese. I heard the Lilliums and they did not have the same attack and low end punch than the cremonese due to the upward firing woofer which relied on a low ceiling  and the Aidas are the old sonus faber sound which is very laid back which is why they are getting ready to replace it with a new model. 
whitecamaross's avatar
whitecamaross OP
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They are the speakers that continue to blow me away and let’s not even go over their looks which remain unmatched in my opinion. I was ready to give up on sonus faber after trying the olímpicas and Amati futuras until I was told I needed to hear the cremonese and so I bought them and had an insane amount of uneasiness because I didn’t know how much I’d like them and well as soon as I played my first song through them, I was floored. They sound HUGE and soo detailed and clean sounding with an outstanding midrange. I love what they do for me and my listening preferences. I despise speakers that sound great with classical music and jazz or acoustic music but fall apart the moment you play some music with a beat and slam. Two examples of these speakers are magicos and rhaidos. I don’t need a huge speaker in my room that can’t handle my music choices and throw down music when I’m in the mood but also play with delicacy if the music calls for it.
Once I brought the xa200.5s, it was even another layer of music that I can Hear through them.
Speaking of the xa200.5s, I had a conversation with Kent over at pass labs and he said the 200.5s are even superior to the 160.8s. He said if we were to compare the 200.5s vs 200.8s, it comes down to your taste and what you love the most. One isn’t really better than be other. They just pass the music in a different way and it’s up to the listener at that point. Essentially what he said is that the 200.5s and 200.8s are too close in terms of sound quality and one isn’t better than the other. It’s really all about your equipment and taste.
whitecamaross's avatar
whitecamaross OP
1,499 posts
 
Martin logan were superior but also 10,000 dollars more so not a fair comparison. 
whitecamaross's avatar
whitecamaross OP
1,499 posts
 
Update: Tomorrow i will be picking up a pair of the wireworld Platinum Eclipse 7 speaker cables. FINALLY i am going to be trying a cable that will be worthy of the rest of the my front end. I am a big wireworld fan. especially their silver series and up. 
whitecamaross's avatar
whitecamaross OP
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I’ve tried different brands and I keep going back to wireworld. 
whitecamaross's avatar
whitecamaross OP
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Ok guys, I brought the wireworld platinum eclipse 7 speaker cables home and the difference is beyond belief. It’s either the magico or the cables, but I can’t believe how much more coherent everything sounds. The highs became more relaxed and the “hotness” of the tweeter has came down quite a bit. The entire presentation just grew in size, the mids are so much more focused and the bass seems to have much more presence in my room. Overall, this is such an awesome improvement that I’m buying the platinum 7 xlr for my source and amplifiers. Im baffled with the match I hear between Magico and wireworld platinum. 
whitecamaross's avatar
whitecamaross OP
1,499 posts
 
Hi all, 
happy holidays to everyone. i have once again abandoned this thread due to family time and work. i read what was asked after my last post on this thread and here are a few things i can say:

No i have not heard any Coda amps. I did get some feedback from someone i know who claims they are very good amps for the money and they sound very musical ( i trust his ears). 
As far as the anthem p5, i did own it and it is a tank. That said, i find ALL ANTHEM amps to sound sterile, cold and very lifeless. They seem to have plenty of power, but they are not amps that can be really enjoyed in terms of 2 channel. They are more targeted to be part of a home theater set up. Again, that is my personal opinion based on my prior experience with the anthem P5. 
Some of you have asked that i should mention what i own in terms of components so you can get a clear understanding and here is what i own right now:
Speakers:
Martin Logan Renaissance (sold 2 weeks ago)
Monitor Audio Pl 300 Platinums
Revel Salon 2s
JL audio Gothams
Jl audio F113s

Preamps:
Classe Audio CP800
Mcintosh C1100 2 chassis tube preamp
Mcintosh C2500
Mcintosh C52

Processors:
Mcintosh mx161
Mcintosh mx122
Krell foundation 4k

Sources:
Cambridge audio 851 network player
Ps audio Direct stream dac with Bridge 2
NAS DRIVE with DSD files

Amplifiers:
Mcintosh MC601s
Emotiva SA250s
Krell Chorus 7200
Classe Audio CA5200

i also ordered a pair of Mcintosh mc275 MK6 tube amps which i will use as monos. My intention here is to hear these puppies in a 2 channel configuration and choose from the different preamps that i currently own to see what sounds best with them. 
I made the mistake of selling my electrostatics and the buyer does not seem to like them. He had never owned electrostatics so he is really not feeling them. I can honestly say i love the electrostatic sound and the reason why i bought these mcintosh mc275s (which will be here next  tuesday) is because i want to try them with electrostatics. i am going to probably either buy another pair of renaissance or just a pair of 13a which are smaller and probably easier to live with. 

Someone above asked if the emotiva is in the same conversation as a pass labs 250.8 or 350.5 and my answer is no it is not. It is a hell of an amp for the money and i have verified this by using my different preamps with those amps and i am always impressed at how much bang for the buck they truly are. That said, pass labs is pass labs and in my opinion they are really the best for electrostatics aside from tube amps. 
As far as my Mcintosh mc601s, they are good amps (beautiful looking too), but they are no pass labs in terms of OOMPH. 
One thing to remember is that i have previous experience using a tube integrated to drive my renaissance speakers and they seemed to simply get lost when watching movies. What i can say so far (without listening to my mc275s in mono mode yet until they arrive) is that tube amps for some reason tend to pull back the sparkle and detail that exists in movies which tends to make the front speakers not "jump" as much as the rest of the speakers. It is a weird effect to say the least, but i will be able to test this out once again but now with 150 watts per channel rather than 75 and see if the extra power makes a difference.
I want to say to everyone that i always have a lot of audio equipment that i go through and that i end up selling not because i hate it or i don't like it, but rather because i am simply looking to try something else that caught my eye. i have vast experience with many pieces of equipment and everything i say here is because I ACTUALLY have owned it and not something that i just read about on the magazines which i don't trust to begin with. i have read sooo many glowing reviews on different things and i ended up buying them and was truly disappointed. The point i am trying to make for you all is that you should not believe everything you read about audio. Let your ears be the judge. 
If anyone is interested in anything i currently own just message me. i can give you my honest advice and opinion and i won't sell you anything that i don't think will take you in the right direction. i have received a lot of messages from people who were misguided by their dealer or magazines and are looking for true hands on advice. i am glad to take you in the direction you want as long as you have the budget of course. i won't transform your stereo to sound like a $100k sound system with only a 3,000 dollar investment so let's be a realist first. however, i  can guide you each step of the way so that you don't have to keep buying more and more equipment and yet you are still not where you want to be in terms of sound. Some of you who are reading this and who have messaged me and i have helped to elevate their listening experience can chime in here and vouch for me.
Happy holidays for you all !! 


whitecamaross's avatar
whitecamaross OP
1,499 posts
 
The Odeon is the best multi-channel amp there is. The other amp that comes second is the Classe CA5200. The Odeon does run very warm when driven hard just like a pass labs. I used the Odeon with 110v without any issues. 
whitecamaross's avatar
whitecamaross OP
1,499 posts
 
UPDATE: i might be striking a great deal on a pair of martin logan 13a speakers which i did not like in my room, but since i am moving tomorrow to a new home with a different room and i plan on doing a few things to treat the room, i may end up with the revel salon 2s and martin logan 13a so i can better evaluate electrostatics vs conventional speakers. This will serve an outstanding purpose because it would be nice to know which amp/preamp sounds better with which speaker. The goal would be for me to have both types of speakers at once going forward. 
whitecamaross's avatar
whitecamaross OP
1,499 posts
 
New room, new amplifiers, FAR SUPERIOR PREAMP THIS TIME, PASS LABS xa160.8 Monos and a better room. Essentially the 13a won’t have a single component this time around that was used in the past with my 13a. 
whitecamaross's avatar
whitecamaross OP
1,499 posts
 
Good debate. What’s the heart of a system ? The amp? Preamp ? Source ? Let’s leave the speakers out and choose one of the 3 choices above. What does everyone think ? What’s the most important component ? I am really torn because I’ve been an amplifier guy for a very long time. I love amplification but the ref10 just made me rethink that. I mean, if I bought Parasound jc1s with the matching preamp and I compared it to a ref10 preamp using a pair of emotiva monoblocks, which sounds better ? My money says the ref10/emotiva combo blows away the Parasound combo. 
whitecamaross's avatar
whitecamaross OP
1,499 posts
 
I have tried both and can't hear a difference. I now just plug them into my furman piece 
whitecamaross's avatar
whitecamaross OP
1,499 posts
 
Update: just picked up a pair of 13a Logan’s. How hardcore am I when I’m in the middle of a move and I’m driving around looking for more audio gear ? :) 
whitecamaross's avatar
whitecamaross OP
1,499 posts
 
I keep telling everyone the reference 10 will make anyone’s jaw drop. It’s the best thing I’ve done for my system.
That said, I bought back my Hegel h30 amplifier today. I want to now try this amp with the reference 10. Essentially once I have things up and running here, I will do a nice shoot out between the simaudio 860a, Hegel h30, pasS labs 350.8.
who do you all have your money on from those 4 amps using the ref 10 as a preamp ? 
whitecamaross's avatar
whitecamaross OP
1,499 posts
 
hi guys, 
i have an opportunity to bring back the black system which has been fully updated. That said, i would have to sacrifice either my pass labs amps or my reference 10 which i love dearly. 
What would you all do? 
whitecamaross's avatar
whitecamaross OP
1,499 posts
 
I’ve reviewed a couple of tube amps already. Read the entire thread...
whitecamaross's avatar
whitecamaross OP
1,499 posts
 
Unfortunately i just don’t want to venture anymore with tube amps. The best tube amp I’ve heard is the gs150. After that was sold, I don’t want to try any tube amps for a while. Tube amps tend to be more difficult to sell too. 
whitecamaross's avatar
whitecamaross OP
1,499 posts
 
For B&w, i recommend Mark Levinson, Classe and simaudio. Stay away from Krell, Plinius, rotel. B&w needs smooth amps with detail. Forward sounding amps do not sound good with B&w because they can get too bright. 
whitecamaross's avatar
whitecamaross OP
1,499 posts
 
P5 is decent. It’s too outdated and lacks sparkle. Doesn’t really do much outstanding but it’s good overall. Nothing really stands out on anthem amps. 
whitecamaross's avatar
whitecamaross OP
1,499 posts
 
I really like the wireworld platinum cables with Magico. I’ve tried other cables with them and I never got the wow effect as I get with these platinums. The platinum cables have a huge sound stage and detail. I don’t think the highs are rolled off but then again the magico tweeter isn’t warm. Magico is far from a warm presentation. 
I can vouch for Magico and wireworld platinum synergy. I can’t vouch for platinum with other speakers. 
Lastly, those of you who think cables don’t make a difference ( I was one of them in the beginning years) are so wrong. That said, it’s also relevant to how good your set up is. For example, if your set up is a Denon receiver then no a wireworld power cable won’t really make any big difference. Your gear needs to be able to let you hear these changes in order for cables to be worth it. 
whitecamaross's avatar
whitecamaross OP
1,499 posts
 
Amazing that we have been doing this for such a long time. Although at times we have our differences in here, it’s cool to be able to share experiences. I’ve had a couple of conversations with several people whose ears I trust. I can tell you that at this level it’s all subjective. For instance, right now I have the gryphon diablo 300 running wireworld platinum cables throughout and esoteric k1 as a source and to be very honest I don’t miss firing up my ref10 and any other pair of monoblocks. Does this mean it beats what I’ve owned? Hell no but it’s just so much bang for the buck. What I’m saying is that having a 16k integrated that competes relatively well with a 30k preamp and 30k Monos is just crazy. Is it just as good? No but separates aren’t 4 times better either.
I think that it’s also something very psychological that tells you “ hey if you own 40k dollar speakers, you can’t have a 16k front end pushing them. You need 50k+ to do justice to the speakers etc” but in my opinion that’s all BS. I realized that it’s really our mind playing tricks. Sometimes we as men get off on seeing a bunch of electronics in between the speakers with a bunch of cables etc etc.
I don’t like admitting it but there’s a point that any more money spent is almost just like throwing it away. Will I spend 5,000 dollars on a power cord? Hell no. Not without at least listening to it and seeing if it indeed makes a difference. I also feel that cables are such a tricky purchase. If you buy the wrong cables then now you’re stuck with them and selling cables is harder than any other component I know because there’s still a lot of people that don’t believe in cables. I have friends who have great components and still roll with amazon xlr cables and speaker cables from Best Buy. They don’t want to buy high end cables because their minds don’t allow them to accept that a difference will be heard.

Lastly, don’t get it twisted... I will still bring more amps to try and give my impressions on. I’m carefully planning my next amp purchase. I still don’t know what it will be but it will bring life back
to this thread. You all have seen me lay low for now because I don’t have really anything to update on other than the platinum cables. I’m also unable to find amps that are of interest to me. The market is saturated with amps that are of no interest to me at this time. I would love to try the m400 momentums, m160 audio
research, block audio, gryphon antileon or Mephisto, etc. Those are my wishes but as you all know the market is dry when it comes to those components so I have to remain patient until I can locate one. My speed was much faster before because I had more amps I was interested in and right now the pool is getting shallow.


whitecamaross's avatar
whitecamaross OP
1,499 posts
 
hi guys,
just wanted to update everyone that i have parted ways with my reference 10 and the pass labs 160.8s. The updated belcanto black version 2 system will be shipping this week and will be back but now fully updated with the ability to do MQA and direct streaming. NO more do i have to use jriver, etc.
That said, i am buying another reference 10 in the next week or so because as i said above, the ref 10 is the best component i have owned. Will it best the belcanto black system? will using a pass 350.8 or hegel h30 with the ref 10 and the lumin s1 dac as a source be enough to best the belcanto all digital set up? Will the black system just outshine the ref10/pass350.8/hegelh30/lumin s1 set up through both the salon 2s and martin logan 13a? where do you have your money? we shall see :)
whitecamaross's avatar
whitecamaross OP
1,499 posts
 
ok guys, the hegel h30 arrives today and next week the belcanto black system version 2 will be here. i also have the new ps audio p20 coming next week which will really be an awesome tool to review since it is supposed to be the best thing out there. 
Lastly, i wanted to keep it a secret, but i am getting close to buying a pair of wilson audio sasha 2s... i have never owned Wilson and want to try them, but i need to hear them first before i spend the money so that is what i will be doing hopefully this weekend. One acquaintance of mine loves Wilson and said things sound much more real than anything else he has owned. He says instruments sound more alive and with more separation. According to him it will take me one song and i will be selling my revel salon 2s and 13a's. Any Wilson owners following my thread that can chime in and who have owned revels or electrostatics? Again, i am very tempted to pull the trigger on a pair of Sasha 2s.  
whitecamaross's avatar
whitecamaross OP
1,499 posts
 
Guys, I’ll reply back to all of you. All I can quickly say is that no the simaudio 740p does not come close to the audio Ref 10. The ref 10 is at the top of the ladder and everyone else is trying to take second place. Not even close. No preamp has ever surprised me as much. It’s a massive gap between the simaudio and the ref 10.
whitecamaross's avatar
whitecamaross OP
1,499 posts
 
By the way, I almost bought the Alexia 1 today but I decided to stick to the Sasha 2s. They will be delivered this Monday ! 
I have been wanting to try Wilson audio and they will be compared against my salon 2 and 13a’s 
i can’t wait to see what the Sasha 2 is all about. Will it kill my salons? 
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whitecamaross OP
1,499 posts
 
The ref 10 is relaxed as a yatch in the ocean but huge like a cruise. The ref 10 paints the biggest wall of sound that I have heard. It doesn’t sound forward or relaxed but rather just right in terms of brightness. Zero fatigue and the most visceral bass I’ve heard. For me to tell you that I traded it in and I’m buying another one in a few weeks should be a testament to how I feel about it. The luxman and ref 6 were only bested by this ref 10.

Anyhow, In regards to the brands that some of you are mentioning, I try to do my homework before I bring home anything. I don’t just buy anything because I’d be filing for bankruptcy very soon. I need to be methodical and strategical about it. That said, if you all want MY PERSONAL OPINION about your ayre pieces of any other brand then feel free to let me listen to your pieces. I will compare your amps or preamps against my own and give you my opinion. If yours indeed are better than I’ll make sure to not only tell you that but also buy them. None of my gear is leaving my home until something else can come and take it out of here.
Sure, I’ll sacrifice some gear in order for me to try other stuff but those pieces that have my soul won’t be sold.
I can’t go and spend 15k on a pair of ayre twenty Monos because I’ll be losing money just to unload them once I’m done. I’ve made several offers to different dealers and end users for these and they have declined so it’s just a matter of time before someone ends up selling them to me.
I have no monetary compensation for this And manufacturers won’t dare to let me try their stuff in my home because they will be afraid of what I may say. I know several brands follow my thread (Belcanto has an eye on this thread) and they try to keep up with it.
On another note, Today I heard the Wilson Alexia 2 with Mark Levinson 536 Monos and the ref 10 along with transparent cabling and I did not like it at all. I thought something was missing and I told the dealer that I felt that amp and speaker combo isn’t right. He proceeded to connect the 2301s and things got better but when he went to the audio research 750se Monos, things changed drastically.
I also feel like many people here love to mention the room acoustics etc and I feel like you can get carried away with that as well. Today I felt that the room was way too dull and over treated with acoustic panels. I feel like the balance in the room needs to be right or else you can kill all the air and high frequency detail if you overdo your room.
Lastly, my itch with the Wilson brand started a few months ago. To be honest, I haven’t been wowed by Wilson the few times I’ve heard it. The best sounding speaker I’ve auditioned was the Martin Logan 15a although I think the platinum 500s were better. 
I simply have to spend the money to bring the Wilson audios home and since I’m buying them right, I will try and if I don’t like then then they will be on their way out and I can quickly recuperate my money. The Alexia is a harder speaker to sell because they are bigger and more money. I find that selling speakers above the 20k used street price is a hard thing to do. It’s rough even for dealers let alone someone like me. 
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whitecamaross OP
1,499 posts
 
I can vouch for high end palace. I bought the dynaudio temptations from him and he was very solid. You should have zero concerns with Larry. 
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whitecamaross OP
1,499 posts
 
So I do believe the large majority of the budget should be into speakers unless you are talking about home theater applications. For instance, if you had let’s say a full Martin Logan 11.2 set up with a full trinnov processor and amp versus let’s say a full Wilson audio 11.2 set up with a Marantz processor and amplifiers, I can assure you the trinnov/Logan set up would murder the Wilson/marantz set up. 
With Two channel, things are different. Speakers become far more crucial but this doesn’t mean the front end isn’t as important. It’s all important but carefully matching the front end to your speakers is also key. For example, Classe audio with Martin Logan electrostatics sounds blah. But if you have audio research with electrostatics then get ready for your jaw to drop. 
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whitecamaross OP
1,499 posts
 
I’m with you greyhound. I can’t listen to opera or birds chirping kind of music. I go to bed with I listen to that. I fall asleep on the chair very fast.  
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whitecamaross OP
1,499 posts
 
Brought the wireworld platinum 7 xlr on Friday. I proceeded to unplug my silver 8 and then when I began to listen to the platinums xlr I found them rather boomy, less detailed and smeared when compared to the silver 8 cables. Tried looking all over to place to see if there’s any sort of break in recommended on these and couldn’t find anything. That said, 48 hours of playing music non stop seems to have shifted things quite a bit. I’ll report back later next week. I want them to have at least 100 hours on them. 
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whitecamaross OP
1,499 posts
 
Possible. I can tell a difference so far. I need to have music play for weeks. 
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whitecamaross OP
1,499 posts
 
i just received a pair of mc275s tube amps which I will run in mono mode with my renaissance. I recently bought a second pair of renaissance because after I sold my first pair, I really regretted it. The guy who bought them from me doesn't like them in his room with his set up. Anyhow, I got lucky and bought a used pair locally for a great deal and I'll be using now an all out tube amp and preamp and keep the mc601s in my garage for the time being. I want to focus on a 2 channel set up in the beginning of the next year and just put multichannel on hold. 
Several of you have messaged me asking for advice and purchased a few of my pieces based on what you told me you needed out of your set up. 
i plan to keep venturing and trying more gear next year and share more with you all. I realized that my first passion is 2 channel. That said, I began my journey with movies and have vast experience with many top processors. So far, I feel atmos is great but it's very minimal in terms of improvement unless you have a true dedicated room for it. A solid 7.1 set up is still hard to beat. 
Happy holidays !
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whitecamaross OP
1,499 posts
 
I think speaker cables, xlr and power cords last 
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whitecamaross OP
1,499 posts
 
Anyone here compare the Wilson audio Sasha 2 to the Alexia 1? I want Alexias because according to Wilson audio it is a far better speaker. However, my reasoning is that I should try the Sasha 2 and if I love them then move up to the Alexia 1. 
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whitecamaross OP
1,499 posts
 
If you think the McIntosh c2600 is remotely close to the ref 6 let alone the ref 10 then you’re either listening through Polk audio bookshelf speakers or you’re partially deaf. 
Remember, buying a ref 6 makes sense if the rest of your components are up to par. You can’t hear a difference when you’re using def tech speakers. As a matter of fact I don’t understand why anyone would buy any other speaker other than electrostatics if your speaker budget is little. A pair of montis or summit x would be better than the top of the line polk audio model. If your budget is 5k for speakers then you buy those speakers I mentioned above unless you’re stealing a pair of 20k speakers for 5k. 
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whitecamaross OP
1,499 posts
 
People keep being drawn to the gauges of McIntosh equipment. I don’t mind the brand at all and when bought at the right price then it’s good to own. Audio research is just above at all levels. McIntosh is just a cheaper alternative to audio research. Look, on Tuesday I’m buying the ref 10 again which is still the best component I’ve owned. Hell I may even buy the 250se to try it with the Wilson audios or perhaps the momentums? The point is the ref 10 is coming back because I want to try it once I am set up in my new home. 
Lastly, people need to understand that magazines need to make money and need manufacturers to advertise. They can’t bad mouth and I get it.
Stop listening to what magazines say. Use it as a foundation but just know that you may feel different when you try it.
If I recommend a component, you’re most likely to also like it and be impressed by it depending on what you have owned.
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whitecamaross OP
1,499 posts
 
Funny guy... but then again you listen to techno so maybe you should just go get a good old AIWA bookshelf stereo system and you’d be happy :) 
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whitecamaross OP
1,499 posts
 
Hahaha. That’s how the story goes here guys. Remember, you can walk the horse to drink the water but you can’t make the horse drink it. 
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whitecamaross OP
1,499 posts
 
Techno,
if you like McIntosh then more power to you. Some people gotta love Burger King over five guys and that’s totally fine. At the end of the day, it’s your money and you can do as you wish. 
The luxman 900 is a diamond though. McIntosh should take some notes and figure what luxman does to sound so amazing. 
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whitecamaross OP
1,499 posts
 
Alright guys, the second ref 10 has just arrived. I wanted to throw a question out there and see what everyone’s opinion is. 
I am supposed to get the Wilson audios this Wednesday so I want to ask you all which set up do you think will win when powering Wilson Sasha 2s? 
1. Belcanto black system 
2. Ref10 pass labs 350.8
3. Ref 10 Hegel h30
4. Ref 10 simaudio 860a
let me hear your opinions !
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whitecamaross OP
1,499 posts
 
sounds good. So tonight i have been sitting down listening to the black system for about 2 hours at about 90-92 db. I love what it is doing, but i don’t know if it is me who is just tired or my ears are tired. It was a huge soundstage that is almost unreal. I don’t know if maybe it is my silver cables ? maybe the silver power cords? i now want to do the same exercise tomorrow but using the ref10/pass. i want to see what happens to my ears after 2 hours of listening. Also, i think i may have to bring my last weapon... The last amp in a box which is the simaudio 860a. Now that amp is never harsh, or anything like it. It is crazy detailed with a ton of smoothness. I am going to be so damn mad if i find that the simaudio/ref10 combo is the best out of the bunch here after listing for a few hours
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whitecamaross OP
1,499 posts
 
I wow wow wow. Everyone seems to be thinking the pass/ arc is going to best the black system and the other amps. I believe from a reputation standpoint that would make sense because those 2 have plenty of it. However, I will be honest and say I have a gut feeling the Hegel /arc will surprise as well. 
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whitecamaross OP
1,499 posts
 
One dealer friend of mine said the Hegel arc combo will be the best out of of them
with Wilson. 
whitecamaross's avatar
whitecamaross OP
1,499 posts
 
Just wait until you all see the amps im borrowing from a good dealer. They will be here first week in November which is pretty much only 4 weeks away. They retail for 60k and are monoblocks. Pure class a. Stay tuned... that is what I’ll be hopefully reviewing next. 
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