Interesting Santabarbara. I will need to look into them.
The xs150 amps are great but you need speakers that are at least 93db efficient or the amps run out of class a.
I prefer the 200.5 for the money. |
thanks Dave. I had to compromise a bit in order to get everything into place. I am having a good feeling about my new set up though and we will see what happens when it is all said and done.
My speakers, subwoofers and preamplifier have shipped today so i should be receiving those next Tuesday- Wednesday. The BHK monos are all built to order so there is a 2 week waiting period for those. I look forward to setting it all up.
I gotta be honest, i really wanted to keep my xa200s, but my connection needed them for a customer of his and in return he gave me a great deal on my gear so i guess the old saying "one hand washes the other" applied this time. Sometimes a few of my sources actually contact me because they may have a customer who is looking for something i might own and i am about helping those who help me. Done it many times for many of them which is why i am very thankful for all the relationships i have built throughout the past years.
With that said, i will have the bhk mono 300s, audio research gs150 and krell 403e to power my CLX speakers so i am very curious to see what will sound best. I will be using the pass labs xp30 and the ps audio bhk preamp and i will try to do all sorts of changes and see what happens. |
I’ve owned McIntosh mc2301, MC275 mk6, PS Audio bhk300, audio research gs150. I’m quite familiar with their flavor but I also watch movies so I can’t be using a tube amp to watch movies and listen to music. Tubes are awesome but I think it’s for strictly 2 channel
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Update: I left the pass labs and ref10 on for 2 hours before I began to play music. Long story short, the pass labs 350.8 does not have the level of detail and low volume that the simaudio 860a does. I listened to about 10 songs and I always chose the simaudio. I think the pass amp needs to be cranked up in order to shine. I just think that the simaudio has more usable power that lives right in the sweet spot where I listen. Yes, if I crank up the pass labs to say 95 dB then the pass 350.8 may be better. I can see be pass 350.8 be a better choice for anyone who has a huge room or hungry speakers.
I don’t see any benefit in owning the pass 350.8 if you listen at <93db. I think it’s actually a waste of muscle if you listen at low volume. The simaudio has more detail and smoothness at low levels.
With that said, I will probably be selling my 350.8. It’s excellent but for my particular set up just does not make any sense. I won’t be blasting music at 95dbs for hours nor do i own power hungry speakers. If you all own hungry speakers like Magnepan, or rockports etc then yes I’d choose the 350:8.
I’ve learned quite a bit here from this exercise. The main thing has been understanding which amp sounds better within the level you listen at. I love loudness but I don’t blast music for extended periods because I get ear fatigue.
Will be looking for a new home for my 350.8 soon.
aside from that, the black system continues to impress. At low volume, it’s the best thing I’ve heard period. I have managed to tame down the shouty feeling it was giving me at first when I cranked it up. Tomorrow I will crank it up after not doing so for the last 5 days.
The ref10 and simaudio is a deadly combo though. That’s a killer synergy in every way and it is actually closer in sound to the black system than the Hegel or the pass were. |
Although what you suggested makes sense, I’m comparing how things come. I don’t feel like making a 4,000 dollar investment on tubes that I won’t be able to get out of if I decide to part ways with the ref 10.
Update: today I blasted things to about 95-98db. Black system is just too difficult to best by the ref10. I can’t seem to be able to dethrone it regArdless of how hard I try. I will update this thread later tonight. I did a great experiment and I’d like for everyone to chime in and tell me what their thoughts are. |
Thanks for all the feedback guys. I love reporting everything so you guys can use it to make your own purchases.
One thing that is making me mad is that I’ve had a problem with music stuttering when using tidal. I noticed it happens sooner when I skip songs. It feels as if the music doesn’t buffer fast enough and my internet is not slow. According to the speed test it is about 90 mbps yet it’s slow buffering music at times. Today I went out and bought a arris 8200 modem which cost me $200 dollars at Best Buy. I Was told the issue was the modem and not the router (I own an Apple airport express) so I bought a modem but after doing my listening today, the problem came back. What baffles me is that my black system, lumin s1 are connected via Ethernet straight into the router and yet they stutter occasionally? Anyone have this same issue? Is it my Apple router ? I’ve heard Apple routers are solid and mine has never given me an issue but it’s 3 years old. Not sure if I should return my modem and put them the old modem and buy another better router instead ? Let me know your thoughts please. Thanks ! |
UPDATE: So i wanted to throw this curve ball at you all. I decided to use the black system's DAC/PREAMP as a dac and feed it via CHEAP CHEAP rca interconnects and went into INPUT 1 on the ref 10. I then connected the lumin S1 via expensive wireworld gold eclipse 7 XLR cables into INPUT 2. I proceeded to open the belcanto app and cued up a song and then opened up the lumin app and cued up the same exact song. I proceeded to match volume levels on both sources so that the ref 10 sounds exactly at the same volume level on both inputs.
I pushed play on both songs for both sources and i began to listen. I switched between input 1 (belcanto is connected to it) and input 2 (lumin s1) and went back and forth repeatedly and listened to the same exact song. Well guys, i did not hear a damn thing different. The SAME EXACT sound, detail. soundstage, etc. There was NOT a single thing better between both. My takeaway? the black system's amplifiers have the expensive dacs inside them and the preamp/dac has a simple dac so you can use it as a preamp. Upon doing my research, yep i was correct. The black system's expensive dacs reside inside the amplifier's chassis.
Anyhow, i began to listen to the ref10/simaudio combo at some pretty serious levels and then switched to the black system and here are 2 things that stood out to me:
1. the ref10/simaudio has a huge soundstage that can come extremely close to the black system's, but the song has to be recorded this way.
2. The black system's presentation is far superior to the ref10/simaudio with poor recordings and/or material.
One thing i wanted to mention to you guys that aren't too familiar with the black system is that the black system is 100% digital. It does not use xlr or rca connections between its dac/preamp and the amps. It uses ST FIBER OPTIC cables so the entire signal from the preamp/dac to the amps stays in the digital domain. |
Well, I am now looking into bringing a Jeff Rowland 625 s2 power amp. I’m also in talks and negotiating a gryphon colliseum. |
Thanks Orpheus. I appreciate you following my thread and reading it daily. I love the Sasha 2s more and more each day. I almost bought the alexias last week but I’m so impressed with these that I don’t even want to move out of them. |
i am contemplating the bat vk655se as well.
Guys, you are going to call me nuts with what i am about to say, but today i went and bought a router (asus ac1900) to replace my apple router and i used a better ethernet cable than what i was using between the router and black system. I don't know what is going going back i am hearing more bass and fullness in the music? i thought i had the bass turned up in the system and nope it is flat at 0.... how the hell is this possible? i am very well aware of how my system sounds and can pick up changes rather easy.
Next amps to potentially go out of my stable:
350.8
i am planning to bring in the rowland s2 and the gryphon colosseum rather than the diablo 300 integrated. I want to keep trying amps with my ref10. |
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If i were to build a home theater rig all over again, i would totally go with class d amps. for all my channels. That said, i have been told that it is NEVER EVER a good thing to mix solid state with class d amps. For example, to have class a amps running your front left and front right speakers and then a class d amp running the rest of your speakers. I heard the timing is different and class d are much faster sounding.
I just would not buy a big 160 lb class ab amp anymore for home theater. I would do all class d. They run cooler, easier to place anywhere, they are quieter, and on and on and on. You aren’t exactly worrying about the damn soundstage width, depth, separation etc etc. That is WHY room correction exists for home theater.
IMAX and many theaters are now doing class d for this reason. Class d is just perfect for this purpose. |
Interesting Ron. Will keep it in mind. |
Actually I remember who told me this... it was classe audio. I wanted to use the cam600s for fronts and their sigma 5 for the rest and they said nope. Not a good idea. Etc etc etc etc. That’s where it came from.
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Class d amps are the way to go with home theater. They are as good as any solid state amp unless you’re talking a serious amp like a Plinius Odeon. That’s a different league.
One last thing, I do remember someone selling the ati class d to go back to ati signature. He said he didn’t like it with his revel salon 2s. Too bright sounding. Again, this was him using class d for his front speakers in order to listen to music too.
That said, I can only imagine what a home theater would sound like if it had Krell 900e Monos for each of the 11 channels. :)
the electric bill and the heat would be serious though. |
Tjassoc: I’ve always said that those 200.5s are special. They are incredible amplifiers. I still would take them over the xs150. |
Alright guys.. the xa200.5s depart tomorrow along with cremonese unless a pending sale happens before they leave.
That said, I will be bringing the ps audio
bhk300s with matching preamp and will compare against the luxman 900u amp 900U preamp (unless deal falls through). i will be doing a shootout between both companies. Who do you think will win ? The Japanese combo or the American ? This battle will be very interesting to say the least. The Clx speakers will certainly tell the story of which possesses the most detail, depth, detail, soundstage etc. Will 150 Japanese watts best the 300 American watts ? Will watts matter ?
Here we go again... things are about to get started and I know some of you will stay put to see if tubes can Best excellent solid state engineering.
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You are the 3rd vote for the Luxman that I have received.... nobody is voting for the PS Audio huh ? The clx art drop down to .7 ohms so we shall see... |
Ok 4 votes on the Luxman set up.. zero for PS Audio |
Could be a great shoot out. Who knows maybe I bring that combo too.
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Hahahah thanks Ron. Send me the link.
I Haven’t ventured into more tube amps because of the heat and maintenance. I do love tubes. I can’t deny I love they make music.
Ron, I may have you ship me the 870a and I’ll ship you a 900u when I get one. This way we both don’t have to pay any money to demo them. Don’t be shocked if you love the 900u lol.
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Maybe or maybe not. I can’t put more time into this and not get compensated for my time. Looks interesting though. |
Maybe or maybe not. I can’t put more time into this and not get compensated for my time. Looks interesting though. |
Hey Ron,
the classe amps are great but you need to be careful with what speakers you use. I have found them to be somewhat warm sounding and if you have speakers like sonus faber then you'll be disappointed. They need bright or forward sounding speakers to really sound great. The pass Labs amps you mentioned are on another level than the c2200 you want. Pass simply smokes classe audio in my opinion. Classe has gone backwards with their amps rather than forward. I feel they haven't really revamped their amps and everyone has either caught up or surpassed them. It's a shame because their stuff is really well built.
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Zaks,
pass Labs is still a great amp for electrostatics. In my opinion, tubes are a better match but for 2 channel listening. If you are running a 2 channel and home theater simultaneously then pass is your best bet. Tubes are amazing for music but they don't have the dynamics for movies as solid state does. |
Dave,
I've always wanted to try the 28b model but they are just too pricey and the Bryston brand is whored a bit too much that one never knows when a good deal is really a good deal. I don't buy amps to keep forever. My joy is to keep trying stuff out and write down my findings. This is why I don't go for brands like ayre, certain Bryston models, dan agostino, etc. They just have such a crazy used market value that swings all over in terms of resale value. I'm not in the market to buy an amp and then once I'm done with it, ill have to lose 1,000 dollars or more to unload it. If I did that then I would be living under a bridge after owning 160 amplifiers in the last 2 years.
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interesting. i am running them in mono and i love them. i will say one bold statement which is that i prefer the mc275s over my mc601s for electrostatics. It just seems to sound like a perfect match. it is like wine and cheese. Incredible musicality and yes, 75 watts of tube power sound better to my ears than 600 watts of solid state when using electrostatics. Heck, i own 2 pairs of martin logan renaissance right now.. . |
Boulder 2060: incredible construction and unmatched in that regard. Huge power and control but it lacks a wow factor. I think of their amps as the same effect a boiled chicken Breast has on your taste buds without any condiments.... I prefer condiments in my food, whether it be tomatoes, onions, salsa etc. Boulder simply didn’t make me want to keep researching for its matching preamp. I can’t see myself going back to boulder and with Magico it probably is awful sounding. I prefer 2 Luxman 900u over the boulder 2060.
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with the boulder i think i used monitor audio pl500 and audio research ref6 preamp. i also used it with the dynaudio evidence temptation speakers which were not that good of as speaker.
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I was about to sell my Magico speakers and pick up alexias or another pair of Martin Logan 15a until I turned on my music today after not listening for a few days and I said “nah I can’t do it. Not ready for it “
could I use more bass? Sure but THAT is WHY I’m going to be trying more amplification with these. My take is that if all of a sudden my bass got deeper and tighter with a new set of amps, this means the amp is great at controlling the woofers of the Magico S5 mk2. It will be easy to hear these changes with these speakers.
You’ll hear bass that they never gave you before and that’s going to be easy to perceive.
As far as boulder, incredible looks and construction but the sound is just weird to me. It’s like watching a 4K movie with your colors all the way down and with no wow factor either. I can promise that if we had a shoot out of a boulder 2060 vs a pair of Luxman 900u, 9 out of 10 would choose the Luxman.
By the way, the ref6 and Luxman 900u are both awesome but the Luxman always sounded best with its own amps. The ref6 will sound better with more systems than the 900u preamp.
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Sashas are in many ways the most comfortable speaker to live with.
At first before i owned them i used to be the biggest critic due to their awkward appearance, but now that i have lived with them for a few weeks, they have grown on me. i want to try Alexias, but i can wait until they drop in price even more. Once they are at a good price point then i will probably make the move if i can convince myself.
On another note, i am so impressed by the black system. I don't even feel like i need to crank up things at all. I love not having to wait for a few hours before it sounds its best. i really feel like it is going to be tough to let go of this thing. It is intoxicating in so many ways guys. I am just like in love with the entire performance of it as a whole. Sure, sometimes i think about just continuing with my analog stuff and sell the black system, but i just can't see a reason WHY do that. It does everything anyone could ever wish. i can't lie, i am starting to love the wilson/black system combo. |
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Tell him to get ready for the time of this life... I will keep my ref10 and will begin another amp journey to see if I can come close to the black system. This will be an interesting journey again. Will I ever come close to the black systems performance ?
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hi guys,
the simaudio is still here and has been on for 2 weeks. The black system is always on since there is no way to shut it off other than going to the back and flipping the switch.
The simaudio is a great amp and it does so much right. That said, tomorrow i am picking up my second hegel h30 and will run them in mono block configuration tomorrow night. I want to see if 1100 watts of power per channel will do something to the character of the speaker at low to moderate volume. In addition to that hegel, i have been hearing alot of noise about a certain amp from a reputable brand that is supposed to be exquisite and amazing. It is not a powerful amp, but the report i am getting from others is that it will be a keeper. I ordered it today and the only hint i will give you is that it retails just under 5k and that it is solid state. :) |
hahaha i like that mike paul..... However, WHAT IF i used this 30k preamp with cheaper amp alternatives? ever wondered what would happen? |
So i have been listening to MQA files through the black system for the past hour or so and i have had the pass labs and ref10 turned on the entire time so they can get warm. I was going through multiple mqa files so i proceeded to play the ref10/pass 350.8 at the same volume as the black system and guys at low volume it is pretty much impossible to best the black system. i mean the music keeps pouring out of the speakers with clarity and that can not be said about my other set up. It sounds good only if i crank it up to like 90db+ then it begins to shine.
i even tried the simaudio and no guys it is still a loss for my solid state pieces. That said, i am prepared to make the following statement:
IN A LOW VOLUME ENVIRONMENT (<90 DB) THERE IS NOTHING BETTER THAN THE BLACK SYSTEM. I don’t seem to recall anything come remotely close to it when doing low level listening. I can say with confidence that not even my former class a amps from the past gave me this level of detail at low volumes. If you live in a small place where neighbors are a pain or perhaps you just don’t want to have to crank things up in order to enjoy your music then this is the system for you. GAME OVER. I have already done the work for you. |
Anything below 90db, the black system is the best I’ve ever heard. Most amps fall apart or lose their magic at low listening volumes and the black system remains clean and clear. |
Hi guys,
a couple of things here regarding my previous comment about low volume:
1. <90 dB for me is considered moderate to low volume
2. I stated what I felt is my perception of the black system anywhere below that volume level
3. I used my iPhone to have a ballpark idea of how loud I am listening to
4. I stated in another post that I am using the lumin s1 as my source for the ref10
5. I connected both the black systems dac and lumin s1 And listened to both through my ref 10 at exactly the same volume and there’s zero difference in sound which indicates that the monoblocks of the black system have dacs because they receive their signal via optical cables which further improves the sound of the black system
That said, loudness is subjective. What maybe be loud for you maybe not be loud for me or anyone else. When I said <90db, that is low to low-moderate to me. If what is considered low volume is <=80db then I’d buy headphones if I listened at that level all the time. For me it makes no sense to have a system and listen to it at <80db. That’s crazy and a waste of money. You’re better off with high quality headphones. |
Update:
i just brought the 2nd hegel h30 home and set them up quickly in mono mode. My fingers itched to push play so i proceeded to play one song and holy sh@iT is all i can say right now.... My preliminary feeling so far is OUTSTANDING, but again this is just the beginning. We shall see later tonight. Stay tuned.. i suspect that it will now be a dog fight between the black system and the ref10/hegelh30s in mono mode. |
Chazzy, headphones are what the doctor prescribed for you. :) |
Horns are my next journey :). i am looking into some klipsch palladium p39f :) so don't worry , those are in my bucket list. For now, i want everyone's help with the following:
A pair of mono blocks or stereo amps that can be used as monos and that can put out over 900 watts per channel with a used market value of less than 12k dollars. The only one that comes to mind are the bryston 28bsst2 and 28bsst3s. |
sounds good guys. I think BAT is going to have to make an introduction in my home. It is time i give that brand a try, but i need to be really careful with it because it is not easy to sell. This is why i have held back with Rowland as well. Not easy to sell once you are done with it. |
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Ok guys, i did a little more listening just now and i have been playing the hegels for about 90 min now. They should be good in terms of sound. i listened to a few mqa files and then went back to the black system. I immediately dialed it in to be about the same loudness which is 88db more or less and i find the black system a bit smoother with a huge soundstage width. That said, here is what i am slowly realizing which i had not really put it into words before:
The ref10 with hegel monos sounds really amazing, but the black system outshines. However, it feels as if the black systems gives you SO MUCH OF EVERYTHING AT ONCE that you end up getting overloaded with so much information and then you end up getting fatigued, but not of harshness or brightness. NOT AT ALL. It is more of the massive amount of detail and soundstage that just makes your ears want to hear less and less of it. Think of it like this: You have a beer that is smooth and keeps you buzzed pretty nicely as long as you pace yourself with it. You can drink it for hours and your buzz is perfect without any feeing of sleepiness or tiredness,etc. You feel social and wanting to talk and have a fun time with it. Then next week you drink a different beer that is stronger and tastes so yummy and you just want to chug it and quench your thirst with it because the flavor is wow. Then it hits you hard, you now have your buzz, but you are starting to get tired, sleepy, wanting to go to bed and crash... That is how you feel with the black system. It hits you so hard and so good but it has a side effect which is that it knocks you out after a while. Does this make sense?
You are pretty much having to choose what you want. Do you want the best 30-60 minutes you have ever heard? then the black system is your ticket. Do you want long hours of good listening, but not as pure as the 30-60 minutes above? then the ref10/hegel is your ticket. This is pretty much what i am realizing that too much of a good thing such as the belcanto black is also not good.
With this said, i found out from the person who i bought the sashas from that he switched the resistors in order to give them a midrange gain so i need to put back the resistors that will bring the mids back and make them less forward and then see what happens. Like i said, i still have alot more i want to do to the wilsons such was playing with the resistors, getting transparent cabling which is what was recommended to me and play with the toe in. |
i can't comment on the bat vs luxman because i have not owned bat amps, but they are on my list for sure. I want to say that the luxman 900u is special , but so is the luxman preamp. I feel like anyone buying the luxman 900u amp needs to buy the 900u preamp. They have so much synergy together.. |
Well guys, i just changed a couple of resistors on the wilsons and put back the stock values which flatten the mids. i thought they were a tad shouty, but i found out it was because the previous owner had changed the resistors with the ones that boost up the mids by 1db. That said, as i seat here listening RIGHT NOW, RIGHT THIS SECOND AT 83 DB, i could be totally happy keeping the black system and selling everything else i own, but as you all know tomorrow i will try to give the hegels a shot again and see what happens. |
Mrdecibel, my wife would I agree with you that I can’t relax lol. However, she’s worse than I am !
anyhow, there are so many factors that can contribute to the black systems outstanding synergy and presentation. It’s really amazing in many ways to the point that I’m afraid of letting go of it and never hear anything like it again. See, the cool thing is that there’s no need to turn it on before and wait 90 min for it to sound best. It’s always ready to sound amazing and without any hiccups or issues. Zero maintenance of any kind and I can’t think of any speaker that won’t benefit from it’s huge presentation. I heard it with my platinums and it was like wow and I still feel the same way with my Wilsons. |
Yes that’s right. The black system has all those attributes and contains even more. Of course, I’m not going to lie to anyone. I am indeed trying to see if I can top it by using my ref10 with different amps. So far I’ve been unable to do so.
I will be getting the pass labs xa25 in about 3-4 weeks since it’s being built right now. My goal will be to bring an amp that’s musical at low volumes and thats WHY I chose the xa25. I know it won’t compete with the hegels at full throttle but on paper it should beat the hegels at low volumes. If I can bring a dog fight to the black system at low volumes (<90db) and NOT be at above the 55k retail price tag then I’ve won the battle. What I’m trying to accomplish is to put together an analog set up that can best the black system for less than 55k. The ref 10 is 30k and the lumin 9500. That’s 39,500. That leaves me with about 15,000 dollars (retail price) for an amp. Typically amps that retail for 15k sell used for about 8-9500 dollars depending on the brand. See essentially I’m looking for an amp that sells for 9500 dollars MAX.
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haha mrdecibel. i don't know what will happen with it and it is still very early since you know i have to break it in for a while before it sounds its best. |
Update:
i have just listed my pass labs 350.8. I also took a couple of pics where you can see the hegel h30 amps, black system, ref10 just in case there is any doubt as to whether i own what i write about or not. :) |
So I just had the wife listen to a song on both systems. Volume was about 92db.
She chose the ref 10 with the hegels... surpring !! |
Magico: needs premium fuel to shine. You won’t get away with 87 octane here. Race gas is even better for these speakers.
If you can’t afford 93 octane, then don’t even try. Lots of engine knock and hesitation.
Wilson: easy to drive with 87 octane. They do sound better with premium fuel. This speaker will drive just fine with 87 octane and will sound better than Magico with this type of gas. More wow factor than Magico aesthetically speaking. Every guest who came to my home was always drawn to my Sasha 2s. They always took pictures of these speakers. With the Magico s5, not so much. They look like any other speaker.
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So just for fun I decided to connect the ps audio direcstream with bridge 2 to the diablo and well.... you can figure out what happens when you go from the esoteric k1 to the ps audio dac...
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