Good post WC!
Sorry riaa, if you felt that my reading comprehension skills were/are lacking. I had thought that techno_dude was making an opinion about gear that had to be modified in some way to sound its best. I think that's OK, but maybe I didn't read it right.
I feel folks should be able to offer an opinion, even if they have not actually heard how something performs - whether in their home or somewhere else. The measurement folks, for example, will downplay products, either because of poor measurements or lack of measurements, without ever listening to the product. Some folks will downplay products, because of a company that has poor customer service, etc, etc.
For me, I care more about subjective listening and how it sounds in my home with my setup. I also enjoy subjective opinions from others - often there is a trend to how something performs. The folks I mentioned in the previous paragraph (specifically the measurement folks) do not necessarily operate that way. Even though I don't value their opinions as much, they still have the same right to post their opinion as I do.
If someone offers an opinion without any reason for it, I will often ask how they came to that opinion, rather than beating them up for it. If they still decide not to provide any reason for their opinion, well, then it's fairly obvious to everyone that there may be some sort of agenda. It happens sometimes.
HEY WC!! How's that BAT (and any other gear) coming along?
Dave
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Now we're having fun! Good post riaa - loved the references!
Dave
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Finally! I've been hoping you would eventually try one of the higher power XA .8 amps, so here we go! Seems to me like you've made a good choice to go away from the Boulder.
Dave
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@whitecamaross For the Boulder electronics, you might want to have cabling with a little bit of a warmer signature - Kubala Sosna or some of the Cardas, for example. I've heard that WW cabling can be on the bright side of neutral (slightly cooler), so you might be continuing to go the wrong direction, if you wish to use it with the Boulder stuff.
Dave
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@whitecamaross - thanks for sharing your comparison of .5 vs .8. However, are you comparing XAxxx.5 with Xxxx.8?
Dave
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Thanks whitecamaross! Honestly, I would also gravitate towards that sweeter sound too.
Dave
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@viber6
I understand what you explained about objectivity, and in general, it makes some sense. A blue sky is hard to argue.
However, I still believe that, in audio, it's subjective and not objective. Two reasons:
1) Different folks hear differently. A flat frequency response may not appeal to a lot of folks. If something is perceived as bass heavy to one guy, another guy might think it's perfect and any less bass would be bass shy. Same with upper frequencies - what is laid back to some folks is perfect to others. Or screeching highs to one person might be perfectly detailed and not harsh to another.
2) You might agree with this. Subjectivity not only comes from opinion and personal taste, but also it can be caused by other factors such as environment, cabling, and other components.
Dave
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@charles1dad
I totally agree about dealers being afraid to sell their product to WC - it’s definitely silly. I had an experience like that one time - a guy named Jerry from 10audio-dot-com has interconnects that he makes himself and sells on A’gon and his website. The interconnects are around $100-$150/pair and claimed to beat out a top end Audioquest interconnect that costs much more. I sent him a question about the cables, and I guess he felt that I might have my doubts about the cable. So, he banned me from his ad on Audiogon. I wanted to try them out, but he would not let me.
Of course, that’s new products. They really can’t do anything to keep WC (or the rest of us) from buying used products from non-Dealers :-)
Dave
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@ricred1 - I agree.
@viber6 - no disrespect here - I see where you are trying to go with this objective/subjective thing, but I think your latest post regarding subjective/objective is in itself subjective. When you mention things like - they should be honest, or, it's unnatural, or, the more informed you are about natural music, etc, you are basing this upon what "you" (and perhaps many others) perceive to be objective. Still though, others might have a different take on what is objective to them. For some, it's unamplified music, for others it's amplified music, still for others it's a colored sound, only to them it's not colored, for others it's perhaps a completely flat response. Some might say if it does jazz right, others classical, some hip hop or electronic dance. All of these other views of claimed objectivity will also include different required (in order to be objective to them) levels of bass, brightness, etc. I just don't think we can get there - a blue sky for all to see and recognize and agree upon - because when it comes to audio, there's too many factors, and as humans we just can't help being subjective and different.
Dave
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Agreed jetter! I think that discussion has gone further than it should have. I will do my part by refraining from responding in this thread.
Should viber6 choose to create a separate thread for that discussion, I will be happy to respond to the last post about objectivity/subjectivity.
I'm here for WC's journey :-)
Speaking of that, I'd like to hear from WC on the rank list that techno_dude provided. Is that actually your list WC? I would think Pass Labs amps (X, XA, or XS) would be somewhere in that list.
Dave
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I think Pass Labs gear always needs a couple of days to settle in and sound its best. Too bad you don't have other speakers to try with these amps for the comparison.
Dave
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Yeah, that was a totally random post?? I believe on this website (audiogon), once a seller accepts an offer, the ad is removed and offers can no longer be made (via audiogon). I suppose it's possible that someone could PM the seller and make an offer. If it happened to you, then you might want to contact the Audiogon folks to see what they have to say.
Dave
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Hi whitecamaross,
Thanks for all of your very helpful information on amplifiers you've had in your system! In my past, I've had some Pass Labs in my home (X350, X5, X1), and I absolutely enjoyed that equipment and I can understand why you think Pass Labs is top notch.
On the budget side of things, you had really nice things to say about the Emotiva SA250. Based upon performance (ignoring price :-), where would the Emotiva rank among your amp list? Is it anywhere near the neighborhood of the Pass Labs or Parasound or even the Plinius Odeon?
Emotiva now has their new Class H XPA Gen 3 amps, and after talking on the phone with the Emotiva folks, they claim that these new amps are actually being preferred over the SA250. So, if the SA250 was really good and the Gen 3 XPA's are better, then it might be a great amp to get into for a lower price.
I'm also looking into a Plinius, since you mentioned it's the best multichannel amp you've tried. Basically, for a 7 channel amp, I'm looking at the Plinius Odeon vs the new Emotiva XPA Gen 3.
Finally, if I do decide to go separate amps, I think I would do a 2 channel Pass Labs amp, plus a 5 channel amp. Just wondering which 5 channel amp would match up well with the Pass Labs?
Thanks in advance,
Dave
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Thanks to both posts from ottablue and whitecamaross! I agree that the best way to evaluate anything is in your own system. However, it's also really helpful to hear other's experiences, and so I find this thread very helpful.
For whitecamaross, I'm wondering about the Plinius Odeon 7. Is it anywhere near the ballpark of performing like the Pass Labs or the Parasound JC1? Also, does it run hotter than the Pass Labs amps? I have a chance to get the Plinius. The dealer suggested converting and running it at 220V, but says I can probably get away with 110V, which is how I would run it.
Thanks in advance!
Dave
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I've ordered a 7 channel Gen 3 amp from Emotiva, so I 'm going to try it out while I wait for the availability of the Plinius Odeon (available for me in about a month). Fun stuff!
Dave
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Quick question for whitecamaross (and everyone else too):
Do you plug your amplifiers straight into the wall or into a power conditioner. If the latter, what conditioner do you use?
Thanks,
Dave
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Cool! I have a furman as well.
Thanks, Dave |
@whitecamaross - I didn't see you mention the Pass Labs XA160.8 for your amp shootout - what happened?
@techno_dude - I also agree with dasign that less equipment in the chain can provide better audio quality. However, when comparing the insertion/deletion of a preamp, a big consideration is the volume control. Everything that goes into the volume control of a preamp is probably much more involved that that of a DAC with a volume control. Comparisons will reveal if the insertion of a high performance preamp and extra cabling is better/worse than a DAC with a volume control. And, I'm sure the performance cost/ratio will determine that for some as well. Another consideration is inputs of a DAC vs a preamp - especially if doing analog.
Dave
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For me, all cables (PC, IC, & SC) contribute and/or take away from the sonics and the partnership with speakers and electronics. I'm always amazed/surprised though at how much of an impact power makes on the whole sonic picture. If I had to pick one of the three, it would be power.
Dave
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Agreed - that review does not excite me at all about those amplifiers, especially considering the price.
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What are you using instead of the Parasound?
Dave
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Thanks 213runnin for your posts - I appreciate any/all comparisons.
I sent whitecamaross a PM asking about the second best 7 channel amp he's experienced. I was thinking of getting the Plinius Odeon, but I am concerned with heat and the shutdown of the amp. Unfortunately, the amp slot in my entertainment center is closed on the sides. With the 10" amp height, it will have 6" of space on top, and the front and rear of the shelf is open. I'm thinking that the 6" is not enough and the sides being closed is a deal breaker. I read the instructions for the Odeon, and it requires nearly 16" of clearance on all sides, and not being closed in. Perhaps second best will be the best for me.
So, looking for whitecamaross (or anyone else) to comment on what might be the second best multichannel amp (in your subjective experience, of course :-)
Thanks in advance,
Dave
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By the way, I have the Gen 3 Emotiva 7 channel amp, and I'm giving it some time. Dynamics are great, the bass is really good, treble is good and it's never too bright. It is absolutely terrific with action movies - whether lower volume or cranked up. It does not seem to run out of juice. It's definitely a tremendous value. I'm going to give it a few days more and see if it improves further. So far, I'm really wanting a bit more in the midrange -- I'd like it to be more 3D.
Dave
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@213runnin - yes, Emotiva claims that the SA250 was better than their XPA series, but they now claim with the Gen 3 that it is better than the SA250.
@whitecamaross - that is good to know about the system matching and that the Odeon did not go well with the bryson sp3. I have a Theta CBIV w/Xtreme 3 dacs - so far, the best processor that I've had. It's hard to know if an Odeon would go well with my CBIV. And, unfortunately, there's not a 30 day trial period. :-)
Dave
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@whitecamaross - that's awesome, by the way, that you are enjoying your speakers and the mc275s! What happened with the Pass Labs X250.8? Are you finding that the tubes of the mc275s are a better synergy with your speakers?
Dave
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Excited for you for both of your adventures - your 15 year old babygirl and your audio gear. Nothing wrong at all with compromises - a great time to enjoy :-)
Dave
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@mrdecibel - well and nicely said, and I do agree about the value of a reviewer that spends months on a product to allow sufficient break in and evaluation of a product. That is one form of reviewing that I do appreciate.
This thread, in my opinion, is a different kind of reviewing process, and another one that adds value for me. It's more of a journey, chocked full of product comparisons and descriptions of sonics. Yes, the pace is quicker, but that is part of the excitement.
Dave
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@4425 - I completely agree with you - when my system is taken apart, it can take a few days to get back to its peak performance.
@whitecamaross - I had seen you mention that you gave the Pass Labs X350.8 two hours and then evaluated it. I didn't know if you meant that it was plugged in and given two hours, or if it was already plugged in and just played for two hours. I no longer own Pass Labs gear, but when I did, I would need to give the gear a few days, after being plugged in, in order to best evaluate the performance. Thereafter, if plugged in all the time, it would take anywhere from 30-90 minutes (depending upon what is played) when turned on to sound its best. Continuing to enjoy the journey :-)
Dave
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WC,
You have a nice thread here, and most folks are trying to enjoy it and discuss equipment. I think the only unfortunate thing is when folks make judgments on others, i.e. saying whether their posts are qualified or not, etc, as well as name calling, like snowflake, etc - all of which leads to arguments. I saw that you mentioned "...the thread has derailed" and "turned into arguments" on the previous page and that you put some of the blame on yourself. My recommendation, since you are the OP, is to let folks know if there’s discussion you would prefer for them to take elsewhere. I know you are super nice though and probably do not want to get into it with anyone.
Looking forward to your next step in the journey, as well as the equipment discussions in the meantime.
Dave
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I had a Rane EQ with my mobile DJ setup, and it worked great. I never thought about trying it in the home setup, and I unfortunately no longer have it. I'm more Home Theater now, but I'd be curious to try it, if I was just doing two channel.
Dave
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I just googled it, and Guitar Center has a used Rane ME 60 for $89.99. Honestly, I think it would be cool for WC to pick that up and give it a shot. I know the Audiophile thinking is often that less electronics in the signal path is better, but for that price, WC could experiment while waiting for the next leg of the journey. All up to WC, of course, but there's really not any risk here.
Dave
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@viber6
My last post regarding the Rane ME 60 for $89.99 on Guitar Center's site was not for my benefit, but as a suggestion for something that WC could try - really no risk involved with this purchase - no reason not to try it. Plus, considering WC's recent post about bass, he just might be able to tailor the bass more with this unit than with trying different amplifiers.
Dave
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If going with Crown amps, QSC could be considered too. A pair of used Emotiva XPR-1's would definitely fit the budget.
If you get the Klipsch speakers that you mentioned, with 99db sensitivity, your existing amps will be just fine.
I'd be curious though what you think of the BATs.
Dave
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A pair of Adcom GFA-585se amps bridged is another I thought about.
Dave
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@viber6
Two thoughts I came away with from your post:
1) You don’t seem to agree with me that WC should try the Rane - there’s .
2) For my application, I’m not sure how I would substitute the Rane for my Theta Casablanca IV? The Rane does not have hdmi inputs, nor does it have the processing of the CBIV. Perhaps I’m not understanding what you are trying to convey?
Dave
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@dan6054
I had the Plinius Odeon amp - Ultimate Upgrade edition. I did not like it at all. I then had the McIntosh MC8207 - nice sounding, not harsh, and fairly dynamic. I wanted to try the Krell Chorus 7200, because a reviewer had mentioned to me that it was better than the ATI signature and the ATI class D amps. I was then told that the newer Krell Theater 7 had much better sonics than the Chorus 7200. I was concerned about the lower wattage ratings of the Theater 7, however, I was assured that the Theater 7 would provide about the same amount of current as the Chorus 7200.
I now have the Theater 7, and it is the best amp I have had in a very long time. Definitely a keeper - I can now just concentrate on cabling. By the way, I really like the Audioquest Hurricane 20 amp power cord with the Theater 7. I've also tried the WW Silver Electra (with and without the upgraded silver plugs), the Krell Vector HC, and the Cardas Clear Beyond, but the Hurricane is the best in my system.
Dave
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I had an XPA Gen 3 7 channel amp, and I thought it sounded very nice - especially for the money. I ended up returning it - it was a little thinner sounding than I liked. Plenty of power and dynamics though.
Dave
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WC,
snafujg had mentioned reading the entire thread. My recollection from previous reading was also that you were not really enamored with the Revel Salon 2. I think it's just how you came across in previous posts in this thread.
Dave
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Opinions regarding equipment, even repeated ones, are OK with me. Even if I get tired of seeing repeated posts on something, I can just skip the posts - easy enough. Why complain about it? Each of us have equipment that we might be passionate about and want to have WC try out. For example, I keep seeing repeated posts about the CLX, Merrills, Tektons, etc. Who knows, maybe the Lyngdorf folks are tired of hearing about those.
I too had suggested a Lyngdorf product at some point in the pages of this thread. And, it was really inexpensive too, especially considering the prices of amps and speakers that WC has been evaluating. The Rane EQ was also suggested - at a ridiculously low price. Some folks are purists and do not want to try these products, and I believe that WC falls into that camp. Opportunities have arisen that are easily with reach for WC, and he has passed on all of them. It's obvious to me that he will never try one of these types of products. However, I don't penalize folks for continuing to try :-)
Dave
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In some recent posts, some folks have mentioned about certain reviewers not being able to fully endorse lower cost equipment, etc, etc.
That's what has me curious about WC. WC is not locked into that and doesn't seem to care if he bucks the system. He shares his thoughts on speaker and amp decisions, and it all makes logical sense - he needs to definitely consider the resale.
Still, there are some products which are fairly negligible in cost, and not only has WC not bought these products to try, but he has not even mentioned whether or not he will ever be interested in trying them out. His prerogative, of course, but considering how much he shares with his thoughts about speakers and amps, I find it interesting that he basically has zero to say about things like a Lyngdorf device to add RoomPerfect, or a Rane EQ? No mention of anything regarding Tekton speakers either?
These are inexpensive products that may or may not improve the listening experience. They are also low risk. I think the Tekton's even offer a 30 day guarantee. Yet, WC will not say a word about any items such as these. To me, WC seems to be just as non-committal as some reviewers, when it comes to some items. Sorry, but that's how it comes across to me.
I would love to hear from WC as to why he would not want to consider products such as these (and possibly others too).
Dave
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Makes sense WC, and I think most all of us would agree that we typically do not take steps backwards for ourselves, so why should we expect that from you.
However, regarding the Lyngdorf, it's not an amp or speakers or a step backwards, it's a supplemental piece of equipment to help get the best sound from the room via RoomPerfect. I know you've had the McIntosh MX processor with RoomPerfect, so it's not that you are unfamiliar with RoomPerfect. The only problem was that it was tied to a McIntosh HT Processor preamp, which isn't even close to the preamps you have been playing with. It would be interesting to drop a RoomPerfect product in between the preamps and amps that you have been recently playing with. At that point, you would be evaluating RoomPerfect as a supplement to the already terrific sound you are getting from the preamp and amplifier. I really don't think that the MX experience applies, due to the lower quality preamp.
Again, it would be interesting to get your take on the Lyngdorf....
Thanks,Dave
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@whitecamaross - I had suggested the 585se's one page back, and I think it's terrific that you and Larry were able to meet up, and even better that he came to your house. I hope he can get the two Adcoms for you, and perhaps he might even be able to get a BAT for you to try :-)
Dave
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Tough one to find for that retail price and weight combo! Looking forward to it!
Dave
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88db sensitivity for the II's, so it will start giving you an idea about how the integrated can handle things.
Dave
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Same here - liking the Cragars analogy :-)
Dave
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Looking forward to it WC!
By the way, I agree that the Audioquest Hurricane is a special power cord - I have one for my amp. I had the NRG1000 at one time and was not impressed. I'm about to get another Hurricane for my HT processor. I previously had WW Silver Electra's, including the upgraded ones with the all silver plugs. They seemed to be complimentary with the McIntosh amp I used to have, but now that I have moved on from the McIntosh, the Hurricane is the one I am keeping.
Dave
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It's just another step along the path - definitely not keepers.
Dave
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I definitely agree with brhatten and grey9hound, with regards to the apples to oranges comparisons that are being made. Comparing the bass of the Sasha 2 to the Neolith is exactly that - apples to oranges. And the Tekton Lore doesn’t even have near the 7 tweeter array, which is what should be compared to some of these speakers.
brhatten mentioned that you can’t say you know how they will will perform until you try them. I agree completely.
Question for WC:
If someone were to bring over a pair of Tektons (like the Double Impact SE’s, Encores, or Ulfberht Be’s that brhatten suggested) and they blew away the Neo’s, would you want to keep them? If yes, then you fit the concept of buying them on a trial.
I suspect I know the answer. The goal for WC is not a final destination - it’s all about the journey. Therefore, when buying Tektons , it is imperative that he be able to get at least most of his money back when selling them later. He’s probably researched the market and has found that the resale is not great. Therefore, WC is just being honest when he says he will never try Tektons.
The only alternative is to buy a used pair of Tektons, for which one could sell for nearly the same amount. There happens to be a used pair of upgraded Double Impacts (1/2 way to an SE) available on A’gon right now for a lower price. This might be a way to try Tektons without the risk.
Dave
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@tomcy6
WC has had plenty of opportunity to nix different discussions, and has historically chosen not to do it. Additionally, I agree with mikepaul’s comments above.
Dave
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@sqitis I used to have an SLP-05 as well. Have you seen that Cary is doing an upgrade to the SLP-05's? Apparently, it makes a big difference. If I still have my SLP-05, I'd definitely think about doing the upgrade.
Dave |
