My Long List of Amplifiers and My Personal Review of Each!
Bryston ST, SST, SST2 series
NAD M25
PARASOUND HALO
PARASOUND CLASSIC
KRELL TAS
KRELL KAV 500
KRELL CHORUS
ROTEL RMB 1095
CLASSE CT 5300
CLASSE CA 2200
CLASSE CA 5200
MCINTOSH MC 205
CARY AUDIO CINEMA 7
OUTLAW AUDIO 755
LEXICON RX7
PASS LABS XA 30.8
BUTLER AUDIO 5150
ATI SIGNATURE SERIES 6005
With all that said, the amplifiers I mentioned above are the ones that in my opinion are worth mentioning. To make a long story short, there is NO 5 CHANNEL POWER AMP that sounds as good as a 3ch and 2ch amplifier combination. i have done both experiments and the truth is that YOU DO lose details and more channel separation,etc when you select a 5 channel power amplifier of any manufacturer.
My recollection of what each amp sounded like is as follows:
ATI SIGNATURE SERIES 6005 (great power and amazing soundstage. Very low noise floor, BUT this amplifiers NEEDS TO BE cranked up in order to fully enjoy it. If you like listening at low volume levels or somewhat moderate, you are wasting your time here. This amp won’t sound any different than many other brands out there at this volume. The bass is great, good highs although they are a bit bright for my taste)
NAD M25 (very smooth, powerful, but somewhat thin sounding as far as bass goes)
Bryston sst2(detailed, good soundstage, good power, but can be a little forward with certain speakers which could make them ear fatiguing at loud volumes)
Krell (fast sounding, nice bass attack, nice highs, but some detail does get lost with certain speakers)
rotel (good amp for the money, but too bright in my opinion)
cary audio (good sound overall, very musical, but it didn’t have enough oomph)
parasound halo (good detail, great bass, but it still holds back some background detail that i can hear in others)
lexicon (very laid back and smooth. huge power, but if you like more detail or crisper highs, this amp will disappoint you)
McIntosh mc205 (probably the worst multichannel amp given its price point. it was too thin sounding, had detail but lacked bass.
butler audio (good amplifier. very warm and smooth sweet sounding. i think for the money, this is a better amp than the parasound a51)
pass labs (very VERY musical with excellent bass control. You can listen to this for hours and hours without getting ear fatigue. however, it DOES NOT do well in home theater applications if all you have is a 2 channel set up for movies. The midrange gets somewhat "muddy" or very weak sounding that you find yourself trying to turn it up.
classe audio (best amplifier for multi channel applications. i simply COULDNT FIND a better multi channel amplifier PERIOD. IT has amazing smoothness, amazing power and good bass control although i would say krell has much better bass control)
Update: The reviews above were done in January 2015. Below is my newest update as of October 2016:
PS AUDIO BHK 300 MONOBLOCKS: Amazing amps. Tons of detail and really amazing midrange. the bass is amazing too, but the one thing i will say is that those of you with speakers efficiency of 87db and below you will not have all the "loudness" that you may want from time to time. These amps go into protection mode when using a speaker such as the Salon, but only at very loud levels. Maybe 97db and above. If you don’t listen to extreme crazy levels, these amps will please you in every way.
Plinius Odeon 7 channel amp: This is THE BEST multichannel amp i have ever owned. Far , but FAR SUPERIOR to any other multichannel amp i have owned. In my opinion it destroyed all of the multichannel amps i mentioned above and below. The Odeon is an amp that is in a different tier group and it is in a league of its own. Amazing bass, treble and it made my center channel sound more articulate than ever before. The voices where never scrambled with the action scenes. It just separated everything very nicely.
Theta Dreadnaught D: Good detailed amp. Looks very elegant, has a pleasant sound, but i found it a tad too bright for my taste. I thought it was also somewhat "thin" sounding lacking body to the music. could be that it is because it is class d?
Krell Duo 300: Good amp. Nice and detailed with enough power to handle most speakers out there. I found that it does have a very nice "3d" sound through my electrostatics. Nothing to fault here on this amp.
Mark Levinson 532H: Great 2 channel amp. Lots of detail, amazing midrange which is what Mark Levinson is known for. It sounds very holographic and will please those of you looking for more detail and a better midrange. As far as bass, it is there, but it is not going to give you the slam of a pass labs 350.5 or JC1s for example. It is great for those that appreciate classical music, instrumental, etc, but not those of you who love tons of deep bass. It is articulate sounding too
Krell 7200: Plenty of detail and enough power for most people. i found that my rear speakers contained more information after installed this amp. One thing that i hated is that you must use xlr cables with this amp or else you lose most of its sound performance when using RCA’s.
Krell 402e: Great amp. Very powerful and will handle any speaker you wish. Power is incredible and with great detail. That said, i didn’t get all the bass that most reviewers mentioned. I thought it was "ok" in regards to bass. It was there, but it didn’t slam me to my listening chair.
Bryston 4B3: Good amp with a complete sound. I think this amp is more laid back than the SST2 version. I think those of you who found the SST2 version of this amp a little too forward with your speakers will definitely benefit from this amp’s warmth. Bryston has gone towards the "warm" side in my opinion with their new SST3 series. As always, they are built like tanks. I wouldn’t call this amp tube-like, but rather closer to what the classe audio delta 2 series sound like which is on the warm side of things.
Parasound JC1s: Good powerful amps. Amazing low end punch (far superior bass than the 402e). This amp is the amp that i consider complete from top to bottom in regards to sound. Nothing is lacking other than perhaps a nicer chassis. Parasound needs to rework their external appearance when they introduce new amps. This amp would sell much more if it had a revised external appearance because the sound is a great bang for the money. It made my 800 Nautilus scream and slam. Again, amazing low end punch.
Simaudio W7: Good detailed amp. This amp reminds me a lot of the Mark Levinson 532h. Great detail and very articulate. I think this amp will go well with bookshelves that are ported in order to compensate for what it lacks when it comes to the bass. That doesn’t mean it has no bass, but when it is no Parasound JC1 either.
Pass labs 350.5: Wow, where do i begin? maybe my first time around with the xa30.8 wasn’t as special as it was with this monster 350.5. It is just SPECTACULAR sounding with my electrostatics. The bass was THE BEST BASS i have ever heard from ANY amp period. The only amp that comes close would be the jC1s. It made me check my settings to make sure the bass was not boosted and kept making my jaw drop each time i heard it. It totally destroyed the krell 402e in every regard. The krell sounded too "flat" when compared to this amp. This amp had amazing mirange with great detail up top. In my opinion, this amp is the best bang for the money. i loved this amp so much that i ended up buying the amp that follows below.
Pass labs 250.8: What can i say here. This is THE BEST STEREO AMP i have ever heard. This amp destroys all the amps i have listed above today to include the pass labs 350.5. It is a refined 350.5 amp. It has more 3d sound which is something the 350.5 lacked. It has a level of detail that i really have never experienced before and the bass was amazing as well. I really thought it was the most complete power amplifier i have ever heard HANDS DOWN. To me, this is a benchmark of an amplifier. This is the amp that others should be judged by. NOTHING is lacking and right now it is the #1 amplifier that i have ever owned.
My current amps are Mcintosh MC601s: i decided to give these 601s a try and they don’t disappoint. They have great detail, HUGE soundstage, MASSIVE power and great midrange/highs. The bass is great, but it is no pass labs 250.8 or 350.5. As far as looks, these are the best looking amps i have ever owned. No contest there. i gotta be honest with you all, i never bought mcintosh monos before because i wasn’t really "wowed" by the mc452, but it could have been also because at that time i was using a processor as a preamp which i no longer do. Today, i own the Mcintosh C1100 2 chassis tube preamp which sounds unbelievable. All the amps i just described above have been amps that i auditioned with the C1100 as a preamp. The MC601s sound great without a doubt, but i will say that if you are looking for THE BEST sound for the money, these would not be it. However, Mcintosh remains UNMATCHED when it comes to looks and also resale value. Every other amp above depreciates much faster than Mcintosh.
That said, my future purchase (when i can find a steal of a deal) will be the Pass labs 350.8. I am tempted to make a preliminary statement which is that i feel this amp could be THE BEST stereo amp under 30k dollars. Again, i will be able to say more and confirm once i own it. I hope this update can help you all in your buying decisions!
Showing 50 responses by techno_dude
I have never read an online review saying bad things about Pass Labs. This is why a lot of audiophiles come here because WC does not fear to give honest information about how Pass compares to the other big guns in the category. So we can know Luxman 900u and Rowland 925 best the Pass Labs amps. And maybe the Macs 2301s, we will know soon when he receives the 200.8 monos. |
No Pass XA200.8. Me thinks the ´´ PassLabs lobby’´ was afraid of their amps being spanked by the 2301s. Or that WC would objectively find them not really better than the 601s, and subpar to the famous Lux 900u. And please don’t tell me that there is no such think as a PassLabs lobby. I call it the snowflake hi-fi brand...As soon as someone says something bad about Pass, it seems everybody looses their mind... |
Subjectively or not, we get a fairly detailed view of how the big guns compared with each other in WC’s system. I understand why some dealers or makers can be afraid of this thread conclusions, they well know some more expensive products performs no better than some less expensive ones... When that happens, they bring in the ´´everything is always relative ´´ card big time...Yeah yeah... |
I trust WC ears, thread and ranking so far. 1_ Rowland 925 monos. 2_ Luxman 900u monos. 3_ Mcintosh 2301 monos. 4_ Simaudio 760A stereo. 5. PS AUdio BHK300 monos 6_ McIntosh MC601 monos Call it what you want...subjective, objective, bobthespongective... I 'm here to know and acknowledge this ranking. Or else, I would not bet here and audiogon forums would serve nothing... |
Another funny neutral tube amplifier brand...Why t. f. would I want neutral sound from a tube amp ?.. Never could and never will compute the biggest hi-fi paradox ever ( or may I say biggest hifi joke ever) ... Tube amps that sound like solid state...tubes amps that are geared to sound like SS...tube amps that do not sound too much like tubes...tubes amps that have the pros of ss amps...lmao If you like neutral, buy SS. If you like tubes and their pros, assume yourself, get a natural tube amplifier....Just go something ´´fully Mullard ´´ by the name of God. Doesn’t tubes sound best or not ?... The day I decide to embrace tubes, and let go of my SS rig, I will choose something like Shindo, Leben, Mac MC2301, Lux tube , ... |
This thread always go back on track. Because WC created something stronger than that little background haze...which is fun and sometimes very much interesting nevertheless. Even if we go off the rail , I’ m sure WC and the mods are not afraid one bit of it coming back on track when WC writes and opens the original path again. Biblical. ;) |
Same thing here. Have been through this thread like a teenager reading his first lover letter... I have to say I am the lucky owner of a (pre-owned) Luxman M-900u amplifier I aquired lately at a great price I could not resist ( 12.7K cad$). Very tubey midrange sound , with treble harmonic density and refinement seen in best tube amps out there. And the way it is build inside and out is ahead of everything I’ve seen up to 30k imho. Looking foward to continue reading, and discuss with AG forumers. |
May I suggest to the op to try anaother dac, as the PS audio DirectStream is good but not sota. A sota dac should bring more to the sound than a sota preamp ( as I’ve read you tried many preamps). Preamp latest designs have followed some of the dac trend revolution, in that we are getting a lot more performance for a lot less money than 6-10 years ago. This is the reason why recent integrateds have been better for less money, it is the preamp sections of those that have Evolved, (not so the amp section). As good as a SOTA active preamp can be, what it is doing is always adding different coloration to the sound. The art of the thing is done in the DAC. |
Judicious advice from Viber6. Could save you $ WC. The choice of amp depends a lot of how much tube sweetness the REF10 brings to the table, the synergy with the Magicos , and the tastes of the op. If enough for him, he can go SS amp...powerful, fast, resolute. If not enough, he can go tube. Yes the Lux brings a nice dense and juicy midrange, but my guess is a full tube amplifier can go further if someone crave for that famous magic of tubes. I ´m a SS guy, but I must admit that WC’s experience with the Mac 2301s opens a door in my mind about a future tube amp to replace my Lux. I wonder if a powerful Spectral amp would be to WC’s taste to go with his REF10. They say Spectal is powerful, fast, resolute...an iron grip like no others... It could make the Magico wake up their FULL dynamics . Opinions about Spectral amps ? |
About dacs, I do beleive the revolution has slowed down a lot. There is a limit as to where programming can improove the digital to analog result. They say the best sota dacs of the moment sound just like vinyl. Will the best Totaldac or MSB or APL be bettered by the new best in 5 years from now...I may be wrong but don t think so. |
If you don t mind, we can keep your thread a little warm in the meantime. Just finished a listening session with a friend, of the Luxman M-900u. We could not stop listening to Time out ( Brubeck). The Lux has all the warmth to enable loud listening without making the alto sax. hurting the ears. Astonishing detail retreival, and timbre, highs are just very define and smooth. Am using a very analog sounding APL DSD-S as a dac ( fpga pcm to dsd), wandering if it could ever get better than the way it retrieves all that detail and nuances in the recording. Using a Shunyata Alpha digital as pc, this hing pushed the dac to a new level of clarity.( was using a very good Audiolink AC cuivre made with occ copper and all copper furutech11 conectors) Had an Hegel H160 integrated before this huge change of direction to separates. The H160 was no slouch and offers a lot for the price point I can tell you this. But the new amp/pre rig has transcended the listening experience to the next level for sure. Just normal considering the price level. I m sure there are tubes based rigs outhere that can give better or same performance musicaly for less money that the Lux 900u. But I m a techno purist type...I need to know I have best modern design and measurements , so tube is not me in this case. This is why I have chosen the Lux amp, I fell for its guts design equally (or even more ? sounds weird isnt it) than its sound. Like buying a car with the latest transmission and motor tech. |
I don’t mind reading Viber s postings which are very interesting. His last post about treble was very good. When WC doesnt post and takes a break, I’ m sure he doesn’t mind us discussing things a bit. Share the hifi love guys, not the hifi hate. This forum is about having fun. Moderators are very kind because they only erase the posts that are abusive, and generally let discussions go by themselves . This is a good thing. |
I use Nordost Red Dawn Leif Series for speakers cables. Very very good value, they do compete with much pricier cables. Not at all the same cables as the old Nordost series. 20 solid core conductors with silver plating, you just don’t need more technology in speakers cables. Remember that most speakers use normal ofc cable in their cabinet. Normally, the trick is in the quality of the connectors, bare wire being the best way to do it but not practical in most cases. You should try those for fun one day, I would not bet my money on the wireworld. But I can be very wrong, sure the difference in price is high. I found the Shunyata Alpha digital power cable to be absolutety magical on my dac and preamp. I don’t know what they put in there but I ve falled on my buttocks when I eard it on my dac. It cleans the sound like not other, and doesnt mess with dynamics. You should also try one on your Esoteric. I ´m sold on Shunyata for power cables , they are imho unbeatable for the $. |
I don t agree about the preamp being the heart of the system. You will never hear more resolution and transparency than plugging the dac direct to amp. So what you are hearing is mostly added color and gain. I ‘ sure most of you would not pass the blind test if we compared a 7k$ C52 Mac equalized to sound as the 15k ref6 arc... |
The famous debate of the pre. What I don’t get is why we put huge amount of money on the amplifier design...powerful class A or tube for that lush midrange and highs, tube for that midrange warmth and tonal density. We then « mess around with» or « add » to it in the preamplifier...logically we just should not have to. It s like putting crunchy peanut butter on top of an already crunchy peanut buttered toast...just buy crunchier peanut butter in the first place and be done with it in one step... « The pre should pass the toast to the amp without topping, it should only make the toast bigger and heavier ( preamplifying the signal) thats it, then the amp puts the topping we want «. |
Viber, I never tried the Denali but I’ m interested to know more. My gear is directly plugged into an Oyaide R1 outlet ( with a dedicated circuit to the breaker panel .) Power cables are Alpha Digital and Cobra Zitron. What are you using for ac outlet? And did you compare the sound directly plugged into the ac outlet vs using the Denali in between ? |
I agree that this thread needs lower priced gear to be compared with the big buck reference gear. Because we mostly got the point as to reference gear vs reference gear is about. But I suspect pressure from some ( dealers ?) who do not want those reference pieces compared with more affordable gear... |
Just to be sure you don t get me wrong on this. It is absolutely marvellous to have someone compared the best gear with the best gear , to know wich of what is the absolute best. Very very interesting. But some of us would like to know if we can approach that level of performance with more affordable gear. Can a Moon 740p be competitive with an ARC REF 10, or is the Coincident preamp ( has beaten a Nagra Jazz in a review !) as good as the REF 10 ?... Is the REF 40 as good as the REF 10 ( same inside design, see the pics on google) ? |
riaa, I see your point, and it is perfectly valid. I did not mean for the op to do this while loosing money acquiring bad resale value gear, but by borrowing ( or loaning maybe, if the op wants it) that more affordable gear...as he seems to have a lot of good contacts in the industry ( much more than I have). Comparing the top best with top best is fun, but will most probably lead to this thread’s death because at this level the differences get smaller and smaller...so the same song will mostly play again and so on. That applies mostly to preamps and amps. With speakers, the thread can evolve a little more but how much... |
Robert S.Youman from Positive Feeback writes in it's review of the ARC REF6 that as good as it is , it was still bested by the preamp analog section of his Devialet 800.................?? All these years of research by arc, all those tube design, bested by a digital all in one solution !.... Now I'm confused, just don't know what to believe anymore. |
WC , like you, I did not believe before that power cables were the most important. I realized I was so wrong when I tried a Shunyata Alpha Digital pc on my dac. Try one , thank me later. It has some kind of filter in it that cleans everything. You never know your music has that haze over it, until you plug that cord into your dac ! |
I do believe in cables. As I said before, I have an almost complete loom of Shunyata Zitron cables, except for speaker cables wich are Nordost. Both brands have patented their technology. Both brands are owned by engineers with long history, Shunyata in noise reducing hospital tech, Nordost in aerospace wiring. Both can explains with science and measurements the performance of their cables. So I don’t mind paying 2k for pair of Anaconda Zitron XLR. But I will never put 6k on a brand like SS that has nothing patented or scientifically explained. I call them the esoterism brands... SS is one of many. I will not name the others. Not the time nor the place to start this kind of debate. |
My cable process: 1_ I refine my options amoung brands that makes sense. ( pedigree and science) 2_ I listen and compare between #1 options, let my ears decide. Better process, much less mistake probability, compulsive buy probability, buyer’s remorse probability. Much higher resale value probability. tecknik, +1 about your post |
On Audioaficionado, someone compared an ARC REF6 pre with a Mcintosh C2600, and said there is nothing to write about that makes the REF6 more than 2x the price of the C2600... So I don't know it you guys are comparing the ARC preamps to welding machines, but I just don't get why all this fuss about them... |
Hmmm guys... If the McIntosh preamps suck that much compared to ARC, how come the top big Mac rigs with their top monoblocks at audio shows sound so darn good... I have never eard any bottleneck effect at the numerous shows I have gone to. I mean Mac is using its preamps on those rigs, not ARC preamps. If their pres would suck so much as you say, don’t you think we would easely be earing that huge bottleneck effect at shows or at dealers.The word would spread if that were the case. SO in that regard, you guys are exagerating the différences, or else it would be known and obvious all over the place that Mac preamps are just the Bose of preamps... They cannot demonstrate their top gear with sub-par performance preamps , it is mostly impossible...they must have something very good that matches their high end amplifier performance. We are not talking about speakers here , but about preamplifiers... a piece of gear that passes the signal from one to another piece of gear ! |
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jEmn4UX1fpU You seriously want me to believe that if you swap the Mac preamp in that rig in the video above, with a REF6 from ARC...that the sound will be transcended so we'll all pis. on the floor. Come on. Maybe change the speakers for big Wilson or big Verity Audio or I dont know...maybe that will transcend the sound ...but the pre come on guys. |
guido, McIntosh gear is not the same as it was 10 years ago. They are offering much more for your money these days, incredible value. They have not followed the Ayre, Arc and Pass insane prices raise. And that comes from someone with a Luxman M-900 Ultimate sitting in the living room, one of the best ss amp of the moment at any price. |
Just the fact that the Bel Canto Black or the best Devialet all in one rig, is competing with the pre+amps of this caliber prooves my point all along... ...wich is that you don t need a 30k REF10 huge two box design with tubes inserted in the Bel Canto Black pieces to reproduce the best sound... so please give the Mcintosh latest full rig owners a break when saying it s not in the same league as the rest of ultra high end stuff. |
As you said , the Bel Canto black preamplifier asc1 chassis is replacing the REF10... And is competing equally with it... Did you see a pic of the guts of the asc1 black preamp.... Compared to the REF10.... Preamplifiers have evolved, just like dacs. Some rare brands and audiophiles acknowledges this , some other keep snobing that fact with ref10, kxr 20, pass x, etc. I rest my case. |
Speaking of cables, I was inspired by WC s tryouts lately. I borrowed a pair of the top of the line Shunyata XLR Sigma to compare with my Zitron Anacondas XLR ( unshielded version). i must say that my system is pretty well fullly optimised resolution and transparency wise... Dedicated circuit and panel, oyaide r1 outlet. All Shunyatas power cables, upgraded fuses, etc..... No question, this system can tell a cable change, The new Sigmas packs a lot of technologies, feel free to visit their website to know more about those. Are the new Sigmas better ? I must admit yes. They are a tad clearer than the Anacondas. Did I bought them, no. At double the price of my Anacondas, plus the 50% resale hit I would take selling them, the difference does not justify the upgrade for me. Someone else may think otherwise. |
Viber, thanks for the Denali Advice. I like reading you about new Class D sota amps out there. About the Denali, do you think it would still make a difference to my system, even if I've already got Alpha noise reduction power cords...those already have filters built in them. They really do a very good job. Also, here in Canada the AC is very clean as it comes from hydroelectric turbines...clean , reliable, stable 120v ac. |
@joeinid , I encourage you to get the Lux M900u. Sure your Dagostinos M400 are little jewels. But the Lux is an exceptional piece among exceptional amps. It ´s internal is out of this world craftsmanship. Gold plated pure copper 3d circuit boards, rectangular solid core transformer wire, pure copper bus bars, ... And the sound, wow , can t describe all of its refinement and body...it s magical, its impossible to write into words. Something that has to be experienced. You are alerady one of the luckiest audiophiles to own the C900u, a truly exceptional pre. I do beleive the M900u is even more exceptional than the pre. You would own the full pair, a lifetime audiophile achievement. |
Viber and Guido, +1 (Wow , me having a personal agenda ? Funniest thing ever wrote about me... ) Some takes this thread a bit too seriously. Remember this is a hobby, we share the best we can. We are here to have fun. WC has created a very popular thread wich makes us reunite and discuss on his and our audio experiences. We don’t agree about everything, so what , imagine how dull it would be if we would all have the same opinion about every piece of gear... |
I haven’t miss anything, and I have read through it all... Isn’t there a way you can skip Viber’s posts if you find them so much unnerving ? When I read a magazine, if I´m negatively biased on some articles or writers, I do turn the page and skip the part I don’t like. I don’t go on a rampage asking the magazine owner to rethink the whole newspaper... |
Boulder warning...another way of saying our amps are made so colorlessly neutral that most recordings will sound like crap... WC, again your input is very appreciated. I thought so about electrostatics imaging and separating the best. Would you say your Magicos are the best cone speakers at imaging and putting air between the instruments? Or you eard better separation elsewhere , maybe Focal or Wilson are better at this. I’ve read Sonus Faber and Focal are very good at imaging. |
WC , I agree with Viber advice. Stay Magico, or go up their line, or add lightning quick subwoofers... You are a dynamic speakers kind of guy, every electrostatic will disappoint you sooner or later. I have a feeling some users are pushing Lyngdorf big time, it’s not even fun anymore...I feel being caught in a marketing opération... |

