Ok based on used prices, here it is:
15k: pass labs 350.8/xp30
20k: Luxman 900u combo
25k: pass labs xp30/xa200.5s
30k: ref10/h30s monos
35k: ref10/ pass labs xa160.8
40k: Belcanto black system
40k+: rowland 925/luxman 900u preamp
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Joe: the 1.2kws offer massive overhead and dynamics. I cranked them up to ear bleeding levels and they remained composed as if they were still only pushing 10 watts. In my opinion, there’s no better 1,000 watt mono. Surprisingly, the luxman 900u pre and McIntosh 1.2kw sound amazing and better to my ears than the ref 6 and McIntosh 1.2kw.
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Roxy: I’ll have read up on atc speakers. Not familiar with them |
Jafant: I actually haven’t done a ab comparison between these. It may be a good shootout since they both retail for the same dollar amount. |
Robd2: I think both add a lot but I’d say the preamp is what really steers your music more in the direction you want.
However, the speakers have a lot to say about this too because for example my evidence temptations don’t want 300 watts of power. They function fine with it but they shine with far more horsepower than that. |
My birthday is coming up. Today I’m getting this feeling in my chest that is telling me it’s time to begin to put a deal together and bring home the Neoliths.... am I going nuts ? Neoliths, Rowland 925s, chord Dave dac, Rowland Corus s2, cardas clear beyond cabling ? Is this where I am headed ?
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Breaking news: Dave Wilson died last night... CEO and founder of Wilson audio.
We lose one of the great American minds in the speaker industry.
73 years old, bone cancer. |
Charles, you are pretty big on gryphon huh... if the gryphon components are amazing, I’m keeping it. |
Already paired it. I didn’t like the sound the ref10 and Rowland’s produced. It was a mismatch. I now only have the Rowland preamp since I’ve already sold all my preamps.
I will list the 350.8 pass labs this week. I want to only keep my Rowland pieces and gryphon units once they are delivered tomorrow.
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Gryphon diablo 300 has arrived! Stay tuned, this will be an interesting weekend ! |
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Holy crap... this integrated is AMAZING... daaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaamn. Oh boy... is it me or do I know how to select equipment ? Lately I’ve been just hitting Home runs here. This is such a sweet sounding integrated. Let me keep going here but right now I’m very impressed.
I will also announce my next ultra expensive dac coming soon :) |
Preliminary impressions:
1. SMOOTH, RELAXED, DETAILED...
2. BIG, WIDE, DEEP SOUNDSTAGE
3. MIDS ARE BALANCED, BUT I MAY HAVE THE LUXMAN 900U COMBO EDGING IT OUT ON MIDS
4. BASS IS GOOD, BUT I HAVE NOT BEEN ABLE TO CRANK IT UP SO I CANT TELL HOW GOOD IT PUSHES MY SASHAS YET.
5. GREAT AMOUNT OF DETAIL THAT POPS OUT OF THE SPEAKERS
if i were to rank this integrated in terms of how i see it, i have to admit that it is shockingly good. When you think about its 16k retail price tag, it is really a steal. I don't know how much better it will get with time and as i try power cords, etc. I will say that Wilson/Gryphon is INCREDIBLE. This integrated is only making me wonder how good the Gryphon Mephisto and preamp are. Does it best my Rowland 925s/capri combo? hmmm... stay tuned.... I will leave you all hanging until the weekend when i am fully rested and ready to analyze things here.
With that said, going forward i will no longer say who is better or worse. I will now speak in terms of synergy. Why? because at the level that i am, things are just awesome, but it is a matter of preference and not what beats what. |
Update:
last night I took delivery of the Dynaudio evidence temptation. These are in better than new condition. Impeccable to say the least.
anyhow, my initial impressions are:
1. Huge speakers that immediately dwarf room. Extremely heavy and hard to position
2. I threw them in the room more or less
where the clx were just to hear them and get immediate impressions so they probably aren’t where they need to be. They sounded just ok. Not the same level of high frequency detail from the clx or Dynaudio c1 platinum. Could it be that these use Esotar 1 tweeters and not Esotar 2 as the platinum?
3. Huge soundstage. Speakers disappear from the room the moment they turn on.
4. Far larger width and depth in terms of musicality when compared to my former c4 platinums.
5. Speakers fall flat on their face when turning down the volume. They appear to need to be cranked up to come to life. Again this was supposedly the reason why the new tweeter was designed.
6. Crappy recordings will sound like trash. My clx panels sounded awesome with just about anything i played. Think of these Dynaudio speakers as what an OLED 4K tv would display if you were to play a movie from the 80s on vhs..no detail or crispness. Very blurry
7. Crappy amps need not apply here. These will make most amps sound as if they have no balls or juice. Those with emotiva, Parasound, Rotel, b&k, etc need to just forget about it. I believe this speaker needs amps like Mcintosh 1.2 kws, boulder 2060, Krell 900e, etc. Heavy hitters with massive twin turbos in them. This could be the reason why I feel they fall apart when turned down. Maybe my luxman 900u and Hegel H30 aren’t enough.
8. These will also expose your room issues. I’m currently dealing with one speaker feeling as if it has a little more mids and highs. This could be because this speaker is the speaker that is not in the corner but rather in the open space of my room. I have a feeling the speaker in the corner is getting “cornered “ and not allowed to spread the sound as it should. Luckily my preamps have the “balance “ feature so I can even out the sound.
with all that said, I’m just starting and haven’t had more than 2 hours to play with these. I still need to position them better, move them, tilt, toe. Etc to see if I can make things better. I’m also looking into potentially buying either a boulder 2060 or the new Mcintosh 1.25 kws monos.
I won’t give up on these until I try different things and if all fails then I may have to just try to get my clx back.
I also wanted to know if anyone here has had to tilt their speakers forward more than their spikes allowed and if that was the case, what did they use ? I’m looking for ideas to tilt them more than what their spikes allow. Let me know guys !
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Just blasted my gryphon integrated. I will post my thoughts later tonight or tomorrow... stay tuned |
Can’t really say one is worse than the other. Do you really think that at this level of equipment youll find bad sound? Probably not. At this level everything is so close in terms of sound that it becomes a matter of what you want.
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hi guys,
i have just listed my luxman 900u amplifier and 533h mark levinson 3 channel amps in order to make space for the 1.2kws and for the future amplifiers i will be ordering. The luxman 900u amplifier is HARD TO COME BY so grab it before it is gone. Quick review on both amps:
Luxman m900u: The best 150 watts i have ever owned PERIOD. insane layers of of sound with a HUGE soundstage. I don't think most people would ever need an amplifier with more power unless they own something like my crazy Dynaudio Temptations. The luxman m900u is in my opinion more refined than any simaudio amp, any Krell, any levinson, bhk300, theta digital, classe audio, and even some of the pass labs amplifiers i have owned. This amp is a true giant killer and built better than just about any other amp i have owned. The most lethal, intoxicating musicality i have heard.
Mark Levinson 533h: Incredible amplifier that has some of the best highs and mids i have heard. It is the most logical choice for a person that wants a musical amplifier for 2 channel and then also as an excellent multichannel amp. It runs cool and does not need a ton of clearance space like pass labs and krell do. I love the mids on this amplifier.
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Just listed my Hegel H30 amplifier. Here is my opinion on it:
Amazing slam and attack. Zero harshness or edginess. it does not run hot at all so it can be placed in any shelf you want. I would say that this amp is a better bang for the buck than the 350.8. Having owned the 350.8, this hegel h30 has far more bass control than the 350.8. As good as the 350.8 is, this amp is just a better proposition in many ways. The 350.8 was always running hot and didn't have the same slam. Again, if you have speakers that seem anemic and you wish for more bottom end and transparent highs, this is your amplifier. This is the medicine that your doctor is prescribing. |
Update:
i repositioned the speakers closer to the wall, moved The left speaker away from the corner and spread the speaker about 7 feet apart. Wow, what an insane difference that made. It’s like everything sounds better, more detailed and tighter.
I also decided to try both of my stereo amps in mono mode just to hear the speakers with more juice and i couldn’t bel the |
Mcintosh 1.2kw monoblocks in the house!!
I decided to pursue a pair of these puppies. What a massive amplifier that feels extremely solid upon picking it up off the floor. It actually makes the mc601s look like toys.
My initial impressions after about 2 hours of play time:
1. HUGE improvement in terms of soundstage. Music feels as if it covers the entire wall.
2. Midrange now feels more "focused" and just effortless as if it was injected with more clarity.
3. GOBBS of low end oomph. These amps can swing dynamics far better then my hegel h30 which is no surprise since it is 4 times the horsepower.
4. Runs cooler than any other amp i have ever owned.
With all that said, the speakers feel larger than ever before. These amps have so much power on tap that you feel as if the room gets pressurized as the volume goes up. Zero hint of any sort of compression as the volume goes up. I am still trying to switch back and forth between my audio research ref 6 and luxman 900u to see which preamp is a better match for these amps. Both preamps are magical with these monos and it is so close at times that you could live with either one. however, with certain songs you will hear that one will outshine the other or vice versa. No preamp is perfect and i believe it is a matter of what you listen to that determines which one best suits your needs.
I will continue to explore here and see what else i can discover.
Stay tuned! |
I agree but what I have in my possession isn’t any of those pieces of gear. I’m very selective and know what each component can do.
I am blessed to have enough credibility after writing here for last few years. I don’t believe I have ever recommended anyone a component that I didn’t believe in.
i also wanted to answer here a few questions:
1. Is the gryphon diablo 300 just as good as Rowland 925s?
HELL NO. The Rowland’s 925 are THE BEST AMPLIFIERS IVE OWNED THROUGH TODAY JUNE 1st 2018.
There is a lot of hate in regards to class d not being as good as tubes or solid state etc. Well, I am sorry to tell you that this pair of class d amps are the best I’ve owned destroying good old class a amps from the likes of pass labs etc. Yes Rowland is doing something inside that nobody else is and this combination of tricks is what is making his amps
sound incredible. No hegel, no pass labs, no tube amp, etc that I’ve owned competed with the clarity of these 925s and not to mention when people walk into the room they are floored by their look.
2. Discounts and prices on gryphon:
ZERO. I am a very well connected person as I’m sure you all know by now. Don’t expect any discount by any dealer on gryphon. If you want a gryphon diablo 300 integrated, it will be retail price plus tax. End of story and if I ever decide to sell mine some day, don’t expect the bargain of the century because I certainly didn’t get one.
3. Does the gryphon diablo 300 run hot? Yes but not as much as pass labs.
With all that said, integrated units do have limitations and they don’t have the added overhead that separate amps do. This shouldn’t come at a surprise. The gryphon diablo 300 has made me question previous set ups I’ve had. It’s incredible in many ways and I will continue to listen to it and see what continues to happen with its sound.
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Nobody compared the gryphon to Jeff Rowland 925s. It’s unfair. That said, the Rowland is amazing and possibly the last amp one would need. Maybe I will buy the gryphon coliseum and pandora preamp and compare. |
Ok guys, I have a major announcement to make: I have just sold my Rowland 925s and matching preamp. I have decided to pursue something else which won’t be discussed until I have it. It may take me time and effort but I’ll get what I want next.
Rowlands 925s will continue to be the best I’ve heard and owned until something can beat them and that won’t be an easy thing to do. We are changing directions constantly and I just did a 360 that nobody expected but that is WHY my thread remains interesting. Stay tuned...
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The Roland 925s have bested all my amps. Every single amplifier. |
hi r1oster,
i am glad you are seeing and hearing with your own eyes and ears what i have been saying all along. That is one amazing amp and it truely is a giant killer. Remember what i said to you, dont turn it off ever. It is meant to be left on and dont worry about the power consumption while idling. It draws very little juice unlike my xs150 monoblocks!!
Speaking of the xs150s, i have been playing with the idea of sending these puppies in exchange for other amps that i am eager to try, but the more i keep listening, the more reluctant i am to doing so. I just cringe at the thought of parting ways with these and then regretting down the road that i did it to myself. So that said, i plan on keeping them for the time being because i am very afraid of really taking a huge step back in musicality and finesse by going with another amp of less pedigree.
On another note, i recently purchased a pair of Sonus Amati Futura. I will say that these speakers are seriously power hungry! wow, they made the needle in my xs150s move and switch to class A/B!. I have done this with the martin logan renaissance as well, but i can get out more volume with the renaissance while still remaining in class a because they have powered woofers so they are easier to drive.
That said, i also went to listen to the monitor audio PL 500ii and i was really impressed with them. I must say that ribbon tweeter is amazing with vocals which makes it sound very electrostatic like.i realize that no matter in which direction i try to go in order to find a speaker that bests my renassaince, it simply isnt going to happen unless i spend upwards of 50,000 dollars which i won’t do. No matter how hard i try to best these electrostatics, it is IMPOSSIBLE to beat them. Think about it, HUGE PANELS, DUAL 12 INCH WOOFERS WITH BUILT IN ROOM CORRECTION AND AMPLIFICATION, and a huge soundstage spread that makes all over speakers sound thin. These renaissance DEMOLISHED my salon 2s, killed my dynaudio c4s, and murdered the sonus faber amati futuras i own. The pass labs and amati futura combo was not great. There is no synergy there because i think the amati futuras are more for class a/b amps with massive juice such as the x600.8s.
I spoke to pass labs today and they basically said that indeed the class a amps with electrostatic panels willl be a hard combination to beat. It just works wonderfully.
If you always wanted to hear pass lab class a amps sound their best, you owe it to yourself to use electrostatic speakers. TRUST ME ON THIS, you WILL NOT go back to conventional speakers. I have tried 4 different times to find a replacement for my renaissance (just because) and i have failed miserably. Electrostatics and pass labs class a amps are like wine and cheese. They just work so perfect together. |
Hi Lancelock,
thanks and i will definitely look into this a bit further. So far, it appears that the pass labs xs150 amps will be the standard that i will use to judge other amps. i think this amp has me at a good place in terms of the overall musicality. Of course, the heat is unbearable, but it is what it is.
I think the cool thing about owning these amps is that i can really do real life A/B comparisons against others. I have yet to try a pair of pass labs xa200.5 or 200.8s. I would like to see how much better the xs amps truly are when compared to the xa200... That said, those don't come up often on the used market. |
Diablo sounds fantastic. Muscular, full bodied.
Update: I will be bringing an integrated to do a shoot out with the diablo. It’s the hottest integrated in the market right now with a 3 month waiting period to get your hands on one.... guess what it is ? :)
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None of you got it...anymore guesses ? |
I have my eyes on a pair of Alexia 1.
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My pass labs 350.8 has now been listed and is up for sale! |
Ok so my new dac will ship Monday. I decided to go up the ladder and will be bringing the esoteric k1 unit. At $31,000, it better be far better than my chord Dave. I have high expectations for this unit. Fingers crossed ! |
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I still have them but they’re packed up ready to ship next week
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What non box are you referring to ? Martin Logan? Magnepan ? |
Thanks R1oster. Much appreciated that you heard what I said and can now see that my assessment is real and without being biased.
That said guys, I have just purchased a pair of classe cam600s and classe ct5300 5 channel amp. I decided to just use the cam600s with the sonus faber futuras and the Mark levison preamp and holy shIt! The Amati futuras sound like never before. Wow. I have to be honest with my self here and admit that the classe cam600s sound better than the pass Labs xs150s do with these speakers. This goes to show me that system matching is really something to not take lightly. The cam600s just really opened up these speakers. This shows me that sonus faber needs pure class ab horsepower rather than class a. However, this doesn't mean that they sound bad with the pass Labs but they lack the massive soundstage that they are capable of with alot
of watts behind them.
Next week, I plan to bring back my renaissance and use the classe cam600s to see what happens. Stay tuned, this hobby gets more interesting by the day. |
Alright guys, in order to make more space in my living room, i decided to list my x350.5 pass labs. Amp is in excellent shape, very little use and i had to drive 6 hours roundtrip to pick it up! It is one of the few x350.5 amps that are are in this kind of shape. Amazing sweetness in the highs, powerful low end punch and a great midrange that always continues to wow me. |
Well guys, i may be out of commission for a few days. After packing up the H30, Luxman 900u and putting them in their boxes, i proceeded to pick up the 1.2kws off the floor. Some of you may not know, but i am 6' 2 inches tall and weigh about 260 lbs. I've picked up a ton of amplifiers throughout the years and so as usual, i went to bend over and picked up the first 1.2kw off the floor to place it on a shelf and no problem. I went to pick up the second 1.2kw and as i was setting it down, a terrible pinch on my lower back locked me up and so i suspect i have herniated yet another disc. I am in severe pain and have stretched all afternoon and taken a few pain killers and anti-inflammatories so that it does not get worse tomorrow. These monsters managed to throw my back out ughhhhhh, but i guess this is part of this hobby that i love very much. I hope my Thanksgiving day isn't ruined after this.
i managed to have the wife help me off the floor so i can sit down and as the trooper that i am, i managed to sit up and just do another listening session. To give you a little feedback on that, i have chosen the Luxman 900u preamp over the reference 6 to be the preamp to use with these. I blasted one track at approximately 105-110 decibels according to my sound decibel meter and i had ZERO ear fatigue or discomfort (besides my back). I don't think i have ever blasted any of my speakers at such high levels and have zero desire to turn it down. I am completely astonished at how well the 1.2kw and dynaudio temptations sound. They just compliment each other and the cherry on top is the 900u. The luxman 900u has some sort of technology that basically smoothes out the highs at any volume level. Have you all ever had a set up that sounds detailed and crisp at low levels, but when you crank it up you notice that things get too bright to the point that you can't listen to it for very long? Well this is EXACTLY what this preamp fixes. As you crank up the volume it automatically compensates the highs and begins to smooth them out which allows you to sit and listen at any level. That said, the final reason why i feel it is the winner with my set up is because of the "loudness" feature which helps TREMENDOUSLY when i listen at low volume levels at night. It keeps the speakers thumping bass and with a nice sparkle. That is just priceless for me... |
Thank you guys. I wish everyone a happy thanksgiving. Let’s stay off audiogon for today or else we can make our significant others mad lol |
Mark Levinson 533h is SOLD!! |
Mono>stereo>3 channel>5 or 7 channel
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Elshout:
if you want bottom end, the jc1s are excellent in regards to bass and so is krell. The pass 350.8 is too much money if all you're doing is handling bass. i actually highly suggest you look into the belcanto class d ref600 monos. Outstanding bass control. |
My current list of components are:
Dynaudio evidence temptation
Mcintosh 1.2kw monos
Audio Research Reference 6 preamp
Luxman 900u preamp
Ps audio direct stream dac with bridge 2
simaudio 650d cd player/transport
Wireworld silver 7 cables throughout
backup components:
dynaudio contour 60 (will review soon)
dynaudio c1 platinums
emotiva xpa2 gen 3 power amp
mark levinson 585 integrated
audio research gs150 tube amplifier
gamut cd3 reference cd player
ps audio bhk300 monos (waiting to take delivery)
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Monitor audio platinum 500s are in da house !!!!
Intiial impressions:
the biggest, baddest bass I have ever heard in my room HANDS DOWN. my eyeballs rattled in my skull from the massive punch and oomph these speakers provided with my McIntosh 1.2kws.
I have never heard any other speaker have the massive bottom end that these have in my room.
Midrange: very nice and centered. Not really missing anything as far as mids
highs: lots of detail but I do find them a tad less smooth than the dynaudios. They tend to get a little hot when cranked up but I’m not sure if this is just the reference 6 preamp that creates too much detail on the tweeter. I get some ear fatigue if I listen at moderate volumes.
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Well I believe you use Jeff Rowland and I’m using a tube preamp. I don’t believe a tube preamp goes well unless you are listening at low volumes. Once you crank it up, the tweeter gets a bit excited and begins to sound a hair too forward but I agree with you. It’s probably system synergy. |
denon1: i may have to agree with you, but unfortunately with cables it is tough because i feel that they need to be inserted in your system before you make any buying decision simply because they are harder to sell if you don't like them. |
steve: thank you for your kind words. These are the kind of words that inspire me to keep this thread alive. I have actually been thinking of starting my own website next year and bring this entire thread over and have my own thing going on. That said, that is just a thought at this time.
With all that said, yes i consider the mc207 a subpar amplifier given the cost and i am 200% sure the belcanto ref600s are far superior in ever regards. Having owned many mcintosh amps, i consider the 1.2kw and 2.0kws the only respectable amplifiers that they currently make and everything else just an amplifier for those die hard mcintosh fans.
I keep a spreadsheet of every amplifier i have owned and i can say its upwards of 200 amplifiers. I don't want to praise any particular brand although i have my personal favorites.
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Well guys, a shocking event happened last night. I tried hours of listening and let me just say, i really wanted the outcome to be different, but my ears could not deny it. The monitor audio platinum pl500 ii has simply bested my Dynaudio Evidence Temptations. I did not want to accept it, but sometimes things are too clear and obvious to deny them. My partnership with the Dynaudio Evidence Temptations has ended and i will be finding a new home for them.
The monitor audio pl500ii have really elevated my system to new heights. I will write a full review once i settle down with a few things i need to handle first. One thing you need to know is that these are 300% better than the platinum 300ii. I can’t even draw a comparison between both because they truly don’t sound alike.
This was all a shock to me because i thought these platinum 300s were good and i thought the platinum 500s were going to be just a hair better with more bottom end and that was far from the truth.
HUGE SHOCK, but hey i am glad i ran into these speakers.
I have a huge smile on my face :) |
Stick to Belcanto ref600s. They really impressed me.
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Sources used with gryphon:
esoteric k1
luxman d08u
chord Dave
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Elshout: my journey assesss Amps as of that point of time. For example, when I had the 250.8, I hadn’t tried the Luxman so I didn’t know that the luxman is far superior.
My journey keeps going and going and now im really liking these platinums 500ii ALOT.
As far as what’s creating the bass, well the 1.2kw are certainly part of the formula but they didn’t exactly do the same with the dynaudios in terms of bottom end because the dynaudios don’t drop to 22hz.
Right now, the 1.2s are doing excellent things with my speakers and to be honest I don’t even want to change our amps right now. The synergy and dynamics is outstanding with these. Maybe down the road I’ll try the 585 integrated and see what this does to the sound I’m getting out of the platinums. That said, I don’t have any desire to change out the 1.2s because of the huge power they feed these platinums. I feel these big speakers love all this juice.
We shall see what happens. Maybe I end up trying my gs150 with the reference 6 preamp and see what comes out of that?
im feeling the synergy right now with these speakers and amps. I’m almost afraid to begin to touch things but I know that’s just the nature of my journey so it will be a matter of time before I do it again. |
today i learned that system synergy is really an important element that i haven't gone into much detail about. I just took out the luxman c900u out of the system and plugged in the reference 6 and i feel as if my system took a few steps back in terms of clarity or soundstage depth. It still sounds amazing, but i feel the luxman opened up different layers of sound that are less pronounced on the reference 6.
If i go back to my time with the clx speakers, the reference 6 sounded SPECTACULAR and far better than the luxman. So this indeed is a case of system synergy and what goes with what.
Anyhow, i am almost tempted to buy a second luxman m900u amp and run them both in mono mode along with the c900u. Something tells me that this combination would put me at a level that i may have never experienced. I am on the fence and totally feel like i should do this and go with dual 900u in mono mode which would create 750 watt monos into 8ohms.
Decisions decisions.... |
Thank you. SYstem matching is indeed huge.
Right now i brought home a pair of monitor audio platinum 300ii (mk2) and boy oh boy. They sound amazing and very dynamic. This speaker is such a steal in many ways. I love the smoothness and massive bass with attack and punch. It's for sure a really big improvement over the first generation of platinum speakers. It has a ton more detail and smoothness. For now, i am waiting for my pass labs preamp which will be here Thursday. This will be my first attempt at matching my pass amps with a pass preamp and see if the sinergy exists between both. Im also receiving a new pair of Martin Logan renaissance speakers and I'm tempted to sell them sealed along with the brand new sealed huge center channel. I'm getting an itch to try something else in terms of speakers.
I honestly don't know of a better speaker under 35k. It really is the best speaker under 35k. I see a few listed and I can't believe people aren't jumping on those. |
