ok guys, 2 out of 3 emotiva amps have been sold. Only one remains. as i stated above, they are one amazing bang for the $. i can't think of a better amplifier under one thousand dollars.
Also, i may be listing my monitor audio platinum series 2 set up:
1. Monitor Audio Platinum Pl300ii
2. Monitor Audio Platinum PlC350ii center
3. Matching monitor audio stand
4. Monitor Audio GOLD FX rears
i am still not 100% certain what i will do, but i am just putting it out there that i am right now contemplating the sale of these items and would prefer one person that can take everything as a package deal.
I will say it again, as far as home theater is concerned, i have NOT HEARD anything REMOTELY CLOSE to this set up. Amazing is not even a word that accurately describes how good it is. Far superior than anything else i have owned (dynaudio confidence home theater, revel salon set up, etc). These speakers are outstanding and beyond better than the original series 1. This is just a complete new animal in many ways. |
I love the pass labs and mark Levinson combo. I feel the mark Levinson has better highs than many tube preamps out there. This is one magical unit with amazing smoothness and midrange. The only other pre amp that is making me curious is the xs preamp. Besides that, nothing strikes my curiosity. It's THAT GOOD !
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i have heard that integrated and it is a great piece. It really is.
Anyhow, i have finally sold my mark levinson no52 reference preamp so i am officially in the market for a preamp.
My choices are pass labs & audio research (have never heard or owned it).
i am also breaking in my 803d3's as of today. They sound a tiny bit bright right now, but i know they will mellow out a little as i keep breaking them in.
My monitor audio platinum set up is going to going up for sale so if you are interested in it, please message me. As i stated above, it is the best multi channel set up i have owned. Very coherent, very detailed, incredible to say the least. |
The mx160 is the best processor under 20k retail. Only the datasat 20 kills it. It’s awesoke as a preamp as well but no it won’t best or equal a preamp like an audio research ref 6, or luxman, simaudio, and others.
Lastly, if you don’t have speakers that can let you hear the difference then it won’t matter. |
Update:
i started to listen to the luxman with the LOUDNESS button engaged and now things are getting more interesting. It’s certainly much closer in terms of sound quality and I will give the luxman a slight edge with the loudness engaged. Things get bigger and more pronounced. |
Just had the wife sit down and listen to 3 different songs on both systems and she said the Belcanto does beat the luxman but it’s not a slam dunk. That’s also how I feel FYI. |
I was amazed two nights ago with so much detail to be honest. Right now, today, I am 55% sure I’ll keep the black system and 45% that I’ll keep the luxman.
One thing I did notice was that I felt like the black system swallows my mind and ears with so much sound. I also found myself transporting myself to different places while I heard it. Very weird but I did experience that.
I would like to test cabling with it too. |
Roxy,
what I’m saying is I won’t do this:
30k amp
30k in cables, outlets, stillpoints etc
just to barely beat a 50k amp ? Hell no I won’t do that. I’ll just buy the 50k amp, plug it into any outlet and be blown away.
I Refuse to buy 15k power cord, 20k speaker cables etc. I just rather use that money to buy an amp that is more expensive that will sound good without so much damn drama. This is WHY I love Luxman. You can connect Luxman with Home Depot cable, the lamp cord you have next to your bed and use a PlayStation powercord for it and it will STILL sound damn good.
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Ok guys, after a few days of constant listening and going back and forth, I feel pretty good about my verdict. I’ve heard countless songs, matched volume levels, etc. I have spent lots of long nights and plugged and unplugged cables like you can’t imagine. I’ve tested many combinations this year; from pass labs set ups (xp30/350.8, xa200.5), Hegel h30, audio research ref 6/gs150, mark Levinson no52/536 Monos) and many others that don’t come to me right now. I’ve spent a ridiculous amount of money all because I want to bring you all my personal journey and my opinions with things that I’ve actually owned and compared in my listening area. All because of my desire to discover the next best thing.
With that said, there’s no doubt in my mind that my top pick for 2017 is the Belcanto black system.
It wins my top award for this year because it gets the job done the right away. It’s simple to use, zero issues, no drama, it’s really easy to pick it as anyone’s reference system. This could be the standard when trying to mix and match solid state pieces.
The luxman gets really close in many ways but it still lacks those extra ounces of depth and width that I the Belcanto has.
Again, if you are not in this hobby to do what I have been doing for the past few years and just want something that sounds outstanding from the get go, this IS THE SYSTEM FOR YOU.
My 2018 reference set up is officially the Belcanto black system. Going forward in 2018 I will keep trying solid state pieces and see how close they get to this Belcanto. Will any of my future set ups surpass it ? Tie it ? Stay tuned... 2018 will answer many questions :) |
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Don’t get me wrong guys, cables make a difference but it won’t make a 20k difference. Instead of buying a speaker cable worth 20k, I rather a 20k source to make things sound better.
I use silver 7 cabling and each time I try something else I end up going back to silver 7. Also, remember some brands are not affected by expensive cables. Pass labs is a perfect example. I’ve done a trillion experiments and don’t seem to hear any difference with different power cords. Pass labs then confirmed that their amps are designed internally in such a way that powercords don’t make any sort of huge impact on them.
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sell your mc452 and buy a mark levinson 585 integrated and you're done...however, If you are a fan of the mcintosh look then buy a mcintosh c1100 preamp. Everything that mcintosh has in terms of preampfification is subpar when compared to other offerings.
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Having owned the 452 twice, that amp is dated and needs to be revamped. If you heard the luxman 900u, I can assure you that you would unload your McIntosh 452 within 10 seconds of listening to it. I see McIntosh amps in the same league as the Brystons, Classe, etc.
Pass labs, simaudio, Hegel are above those and if you want to elevate even further then you go for luxman, boulders, etc. The reason why I recommended the 585 is because you’ll kill 3 birds with one stone by buying it and yes it sounds really amazing. You’d need a C1100, and an awesome dac plus your 452 to best it but then you’re talking about how much money ? 3 times the money ? Far greater money.
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I don’t really venture with integrated pieces. However, it is really a great sounding piece and it’s not too much either. |
I didn’t buy it but I heard it’s supposed to be amazing. That said, based on a review online, the luxman 900u is superior.
I keep getting questions on amplifiers and I keep saying the SAME THING over and over again. The luxman 900u is the best amp I have heard for under 20k. No other amp has been able to beat it in my room. No Hegel, no simaudio, no McIntosh lol, no pass labs (unless it’s the expensive xs amps or xa200s) no Classe, Bryston, Mark Levinson, etc.
This is why I have owned it 3 times! The first 2 times I sold it, it sold in one day the first one and in 3 days the second one. No major discount on current luxman pieces either. It’s a small network of dealers and they monitor their product here like hawks. Dealers get killed the minute they try to sell their product online. I’ve never seen so a strict company. If you’re waiting for a used 900u amp, you’ll have to get inline because I know of a few that are waiting for one. |
You can’t expect dynamics from a 30 watt per channel integrated. Dynamics require power and control and With 30 watts it’s just tough to ask for that.
Also, luxman isn’t known for dynamics and swings. That’s not their game. Their game is smoothness, detail, no fatigue, huge soundstage. Japanese products aren’t known for dynamics. That’s what American products are known for. |
Zprr: your simaudio is a good combo. I suggest anyone here to try the luxman pieces first before moving to a black system. |
so the krell 700CX will be here this Thursday and the more i think about it, i don’t really think it will hold off the luxman 900u monos. It is an "old" design. It is a powerhouse,but i am here to tell you power means NOTHING. The luxman 900u demonstrated that to me many many times.
As a matter of fact, the Luxman 900u has made me stop listening to the diablo 300 and it keeps putting huge doubts in my mind that the krell 700cx will come close. If i were to put a $1,000 bet, my money is on the luxman monos. My krell 402e got its butt handed by another amp which i can’t recall which one it was (it wasn’t luxman). I hope i am wrong and that i am shocked by the krell, but all i suspect is that the krell will have a big amount of bass, big muscle and big control over my Sasha 2s, but it will be torn apart by the 900us when it comes to resolution, refinement, etc.
I see it as this:
David vs Goliath
Mustang 5.0 versus Ferrari
Hemi engine vs inline 6 twin turbo
Bull versus Pasofino horse
Nascar racecar versus Formula 1 racecar
Those are the best comparisons i can think of. One being just raw power, muscle versus refinement, wisdom, technology etc. I do not think muscle will win this....
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We shall see this weekend Guys...that said, I’m not about to embark on buying crazy cabling for the krell. I’ll do the 20a upgrade and a nice outlet. That’s it. It’s either going to beat the Luxman or it’s not. Not about to go buy turbos,
superchargers, nitrous, cams, ported heads etc so I can beat the other car. If I have to go through that much work then I’ll just buy the other car, pump gas and haul a$$. Why do you think I fell in love with the Camaro back in the 90s after owning a mustang ? Because the camaro was just faster and better. I had to do cams, heads, exhaust etc to be able to beat on the ls1 engine that only had an air intake and a shifter. To me, that’s the beautiful thing about having so many options. Why go through so much pain unless you are doing it because you
want to see what changed in your set up after adding a new tweak.
that said, maybe the krell does surprise me and puts on a show. I’m not totally counting it out.
Lastly, the Luxman 900u also made me realize how mid fi the pass labs 350.8 truly is... I’d own a Luxman 900u over just about any pass labs amp with the exception of the xs series.
Audiolabyrinth: I know your krell is not the same as mine. Yours has a boat load
of money invested in it and internal work. Mine is the pure work that came out of krell. If mine loses, this doesn’t mean yours would.
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I’ve been trying for ears to find an older car that’s better than a new one. Although I love the look of a -1969 camaro, i can’t say I love the engine or transmission. My perfect dream car has always been an old school muscle car with today’s engine and Transmission.
Part of the reason why I love to go back in time with amplifiers is to see how good Good they are versus today’s offerings. I’ve still yet to find an old amp that rivals today’s best offerings. I remember hearing the pass labs 350.5 and when I compared it to the simaudio 860a, it sounded muffled, loose on the bass and with no finesse.
That said, someone who doesn’t have anything to compare it to wouldn’t know any better. |
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That would take too much effort here which I don’t want to put in... there’s always people who can benefit from
what I write and those that don’t. I can’t please everyone and i don’t intend to.
That said, make it about your own track, your own support crew and if you decide then you can bring one of the vehicles I’ve recommended to see how it performs.
The truth here guys is that if I were to bring some crazy cabling, ultra expensive amps and preamps etc then MOST OF YOU would lose interest. Trust me, I received a few messages when I owned the rowlands from people that said they loved my journey but that I was starting to lose them with gear that they could not afford. I’ll try to keep “affordable” gear in this thread.
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interesting. i am thinking of trying an audio research preamp, but i also want to try another pass labs preamp. I am torn between both. That said, i was offered the Audio Research GSPre at a good deal, yet i don't know much about it and although it is beyond stunning, i am looking for a preamp with amazing bass and fullness. i am running b&w 803d3s and want to squeeze more bass out of them so i think buying a preamp that is known for great punch and dynamics would do the trick. |
A couple of updates:
803d3s: i fired these up yesterday and they have an enormous amount of detail. Incredible to say the least, but they do sound a bit lean in my room. That said, they are still breaking in so i hope the bass gets better.
Oppo 205: i watched a few movies with this player and i can’t really hear any sort of improvement when compared to my samsung 8500 4k player. It is VERY HARD to find any sort of change in sound when it comes to movies. I will say that if you are looking for a great 4k player, the oppo 203 is the way to go because i can almost guarantee that there is zero difference in terms of sound quality when it comes to movies between the 203 and the 205.
yes, you will read it has this dac and that dac and improved this and that, but can we actually EASILY detect an improvement in sound? that is the question and so far i am going to say HELL NO. However, unless this oppo 205 needs major break in time, i don’t see it being any better than any other 4k bluray player as far as sound. Again, i am using a great processor so maybe the processor is also doing alot of the work here and compensating the signal when it is coming from an average 4k bluray player.
Please note, my findings with this oppo 205 are without any break in time (not sure if there is any break in time needed with this unit or not yet and the manual says nothing about it).
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thanks for the comments. I will try to update it after this long weekend ahead.
That said, i have listed my monitor audio Platinums!! This is the very first pair to hit audiogon so look hurry and take these!
I have shifted into b&w d3 for the time being to give these speakers a shot. With that said, here is my mini review on these Monitor audio Platinums Series 2:
1. HUGE IMPROVEMENT over series 1. Having owned the original platinums, i was not even prepared to hear how much more refined this new series is. It has a bigger soundstage and sounds very very electrostatic-like. Extremely smooth speaker.
2. MASSIVE BASS OUTPUT with a level of precision and speed that i haven’t heard before from any speaker under $15k.
3. The midrange is really something special with this speaker. The center channel is HANDS DOWN THE BEST center channel i have ever owned. It destroys the dynaudio confidence, Bryston tc1, paradigm c5, and the original platinum center. Again, this PLC350ii will make your neighbors hear the dialogue of your movies. Incredible width and spread that lets everyone hear every word spoken regardless of where they are seated.
4. This is in my opinion the best speaker under $15k. It destroys the sonus faber olympica 3, martin logan montis, golden ear triton 1s, Martin logan summit x, b&w 802 diamond, and YES i PREFER THIS SPEAKER OVER THE REVEL SALON 2 as well. I don’t think it has any competition under 15,000 dollars.
5. As far as home theater, these speakers are by far the best home theater experience i have had. Yes even better than the renaissance martin logan were for movies. They have such a huge dynamic swing that allows them to go from 0 to 100 mph in no time. |
The beast is here... can’t take it out of the box. It’s awkwardly shaped. Monstrous size. Let’s see |
Well tomorrow night i hope to begin to make sure it is working perfectly before I begin to listen to it. The caps were replaced by krell in 2015 so not very long ago.
I will begin to listen with a standard 15a outlet until my electrician decides that he needs the money and then he will come out.
Anyhow, I am 60% leaning on the full luxman set winning it all but I also won’t lie that the massive juice of the krell which is pure class a along with the incredible ref10 will have something to say about it.
my source is the esoteric k1 and I will try 3 different types of speaker cables to see what happens.
Stay tuned... oh and if I find a deal on the krell MRA Monos then they will be next !
Lastly, I am about to pay for the next pair of speakers that will replace my beloved Sasha’s. No they are not the neoliths but they do retail for $60k+ and I can’t say anything else until they are here.... it is the one brand that I’ve wanted to try for a long time... I expect these speakers to demolish my Sasha’s and the alexias.
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Shadorne, are you saying agostino momentums is also just a krell amp? Not so... I’ve heard both and the momentum just takes it to a whole new level in terms of detail l, quality of sound, finesse etc. Krell was known mostly for outstanding bass and muscle but never for finesse. |
So i have been playing the krell 700cx for the last hour and at first i was getting more mids on my left speaker. i tried 2 preamps with it, i tried the luxman as well and no it is not the speakers. i then went to run an errand and left it playing and now the sound has fixed itself. i suspect it is due to the capacitors needing to charge, etc the reason why i was getting imbalanced sound.
My initial impressions using the 900u preamp are that this amp has amazing mids. Very clear, clean and articulate mids. I can understand every single word being sung by the artist. Bass control is world class for sure. The highs are not close to the luxman 900u highs. That said, i need to let it run longer and then insert the ref10 in the mix and see what happens. So far, i gotta be honest that this beast is no slouch. Not at all. |
tomorrow i will be test driving the wireworld platinum 7 speaker cables which retail for 16,000 dollars... it will be one hell of a test that i will be doing here. Has anyone heard these? |
has anyone heard the lumin s1 streamer/dac? i am curious about it and have an opportunity to grab one at a decent price. |
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i have used wireworld and straight wire. I am just having a chance tomorrow to bring the top of the line cable from wireworld home for me to audition it. i can't wait to see if indeed this is snake oil or going to a cable that expensive really transforms this set up. |
Update: The black system will ship back to my dealer. i have decided to let him get this entire thing upgraded to the latest version of hardware/software and then revisit this idea later on. I will begin this year with my luxman combo at full speed and have ordered the expensive d08u sacd/dac to see what it does to my music collection. |
Just started to play music using the 16,000
dollar wire world platinum 7 speaker cable and my initial impressions will come later tonight... my first rodeo with cables of this caliber. My current cable are wire wild silver 7 cables. |
Insane sound with these cables. I can honestly say I hear a 15-20% improvement accross the board. It sounds as if my whole set up was upgraded from top to bottom. Better highs, tighter bass, bigger sound, just everything is that much better. I really didn’t believe this before but I am a believer now that when your equipment is of high caliber, cables are a must too.
everything coming out of the speakers is now even more separated and evenly distributed. Nothing is overdone or pushed forward too hard. The sound now feels as if it is also coming down from
the ceiling. The Luxman combo now sounds more focused and locked in. Just as good if not a tiny better than the black system
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the music fidelity titan is on my wish list.. i have been looking for one... |
I am using silver 7 power cords. Same for balanced cables. That said, I may request gold eclipse 7 xlr and speaker cables and see what happens. Im amazed at how much better this set up sounds with these cables. I didn’t expect to hear this improvement.
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Well so far today, the ref10/Luxman Monos just made my jaw drop... it is just mind boggling what I hear... |
Luxman 900u monos, ref10, esoteric k1, wireworld platinum usb cable, and silver 7 cabling all around has stolen the show right now.... this set up is a deadly deadly combination that can put a lot of people with far more expensive gear into tears.. |
Krell 700cx is amazing. Can’t knock it on anything but the Luxman 900us hace more detail, bigger soundstage, and I can listen to them for hours on end. |
Negative. The krell is better than the 350.8. Bigger, massive, with way more bottom end control. The 350.8 is not worth the asking price. The 860a is better than the 350.8 but if you have hard to drive speakers then the 350.8 is a better choice.
As I said above, pass labs is mid fi just like McIntosh and Brystons. The xs stuff is indeed better though... just too much damm heat in my opinion.
the only thing that sucks with the 700cx is that it’s old so failure rate could be high for many units. Mine is perfect because it was sent to krell in 2015 but the rest of them could be questionable but the fact that it can still be battling amps today is a huge statement. |
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Here’s the top 6 amps and their particular order indicates which one is better:
1. Rowland 925
2. Luxman 900u
3. Pass labs xs150
4. Simaudio 860a
5. Hegel h30
6. Krell 700cx
these rankings are based on my list of amps. It won’t include any amp I’ve never owned. Only amps I’ve owned.
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Whitecamaross- I just discovered your thread on audiogon 2 days ago. Frankly, I have read it to completion 3 times, since! I must say you are an inspiration and a bridge builder for all. I also take what reviewers write with a grain of salt. I have reembarked on this journey, albeit, on a smaller monetary scale than yourself, 6 years ago. I happen to be a Wireworld fan also. The last 2 years I have focused on tube gear. Buying and selling equipment so I can listen with my own ears in my own home and surround myself with like minded people who enjoy listening, not reading stats. A fine bottle of wine always helps! I sold high end hifi (actually Luxman, McIntosh, B&O, M&K, et al) back in the 80’s.
As you well know, everything has changed for the better.
THANK YOU, THANK YOU for sharing your journey! Messages like these are the reason why i keep doing what i do. I appreciate your kind words and i hope you enjoy the Hegel H30 that i am shipping to you tomorrow. Guys, anytime you have feedback that is positive and constructive, it fires me up to keep doing this day in day out. Remember, i do it for pure enjoyment and also because i want to share my personal opinions on what is out there. Thank you a lot once again and stay tuned. 2018 will bring even more twists and turn that will be all for the better. I don’t know if i review 30 amps this year, but i think 20 should suffice :) lol |
Update: i will be picking up a lumin s1 and test drive it here at home. The goal will be to see how much better it is than my ps audio direct stream dac. i suspect the lumin s1 will blow away my ps audio direct stream. Just a gut feeling based on my initial research. |
Well my new speakers are getting picked up Today. I will disclose what they are once they are officially on their way to me :)
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Alright guys... the speakers I purchased were... drum roll!!!
Vivid audio G1 !!!
I’m highly excited to get them and see what these speakers are all about. I’ve heard nothing but good things about them so we shall see ...
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Nice guido. I keep hearing so many good things about vivid audio. I wanted a speaker that is proven with the luxman and vivid is it... |
My G1 speakers will come with version 2 tweeters.... man i am very excited and this speaker should easily Best the Alexia I was trying to buy .. |
So the set up will be as follows:
vivid audio g1 speakers
ref 10 preamp
luxman 900u Monos
esoteric k1
total msrp of $155,000. |
i have not had a chance to listen to them.
That said, i had a chance to listen to my monitor audio platinums over this long weekend. i learned quite a few things in terms o musicality and smoothness.
Here is a few things that most people don’t really know. Speakers are no no different than tvs. What i mean by that is when you go to best buy and look at the televisions playing, you will notice that the displays that grab your attention are the ones with a lot of brightness and with a lot of saturated colors. That said, we all couldn’t handle a tv in our house with that much brightness and with the lights being off while we watch a movie. Our eyes would totally burn!
Speakers are no damn different. If you walk into a room and audition speakers that sound very detailed and almost bright, you will instantly be like omg they sound phenomenal and the truth couldn’t be farther than that. This brings me to the monitor audio platinums. i played with my 803d3s and the platinums and did back to back sessions. Of course within the first 15 min the 803d3s sound amazing and make the platinums sound dull and boring in comparison UNTIL you sit down in front of the platinums for an extended period of time and that is when it hits you. You realize that all the detail is there and that they give you ZERO ear fatigue at any volume level. That is when you realize how to truly appreciate a different type of speaker.
The bass slam with these platinums is some of the best I’ve heard. They make my 803d3s sound anemic in comparison.
In addition to this, i am happy to say that i also purchased a 350.8 pass labs amp. This is indeed an incredible amp with beautiful highs and attack. i can say that it is a really good match for b&w d3 speakers because it smoothes out the high frequencies on the speakers. I like the bass as well and the overall musicality that exists in this amp.
With all this said, i decided to do a A/B comparison with the xs150s and the 350.8 while i played with the speakers and the first thing that stood out to me were the highs... It was not even a close match in terms of the detail, smoothness, silkiness that the xs amps possess. It almost felt like someone was throwing a blanket on the speakers each time i connected the 350.8. The xs totally demolished the highs of the x350.8
As far as the midrange, i would say it was kinda close in many ways. I really couldn’t gauge it too well to really give an opinion.
When it comes to bass, again i think the fact that my 803d3s aren’t really known for bass makes it very tough for me to hear if indeed the bass is that much different between both amplifiers.
The one thing was the massive soundstage thrown by the xs amps, but it kinda sucks that you have to wait for about 2 hours before they really open up and sound big and bold. I don’t care what anyone says, these xs amps NEED A FEW HOURS to sound best, but once they hit their stride, it is lights out game over for every other amp i have owned.
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COMING SOON: This amp has always been on my radar. I used the integrated before, but i wanted to bring a real amp to try and i believe it will be one of the most epic shootouts ever done by me. I am talking about the HEGEL H30 power amplifier. i am really looking forward to hearing this beast against the pass labs x350.8. I am going to NOT BE BIASED even though i love pass labs. i will try to be as objective as i can be and put it all out there. I expect that this h30 amp will be murdering the pass labs in regards to bass output and control. The question is how it will be when it comes to highs and mids?? that will be one fun thing to test out. Let’s see if i can bring this bad boy home and put it up against my x350.8!! |
