I’ve known WCSS for years now. I agree with him, room correction for 2 channel listening by in large sucks.
Works OK for subwoofers, surround speakers or even a center channel.
2 channel? Get the right speaker, position it correctly, use some room treatments.
Otherwise, get an active crossover, or a fully DSP’d speaker.
For all of those that believe in waiting months for electronics/DAC’s to break in...I’m with WCSS. Use them a few times, let them get all warmed up and cooled down. That’s it kids.
Speakers, I’ll buy that some may take a little longer. DynAudio can actually measure the differences.
Chances are for 95% of us, you know within a few hours if you made the right choice on your speakers or electronics. You can spend weeks "breaking" it in aka your ears getting used to it. But you are just rationalizing your purchase.
Where I do differ from WCSS... I’d like to see consistency in the speaker/room for the given electronics. But dude moved, what are you going to do?
I do think a few room treatments are in order, but we’ve talked about that.
Cables... ah... if someone can explain to me how a $5000.00 power cord makes a bit of difference for that last 3 feet after the electricity has traveled MILES, then you should be using those sales skills to make some bank selling a product that can get you paid well. (that said, if you are using an uber-power amp, a dedicated 20amp circuit makes sense. But save the money on a $500 outlet, get a medical grade outlet and call it good)
Ironically I didn’t even discover this thread until about a month ago. It’s fantastic.
Speakers/Room
Source
Amp
Best be spending 90% of your budget there. |
"Hi whitecamaross, fascinating journey which I eagerly follow. Have read it all. Don’t let someone like dep14 talk down the importance of a power cable or any cable for that matter. I am sure he means well.
He, like many others, can not understand how a few feet of expensive cable at the end of miles of supply cable can make a difference. A reasonable assumption to the uninformed.
But it is not the last bit of cable connected to your amp. The way your amp sees it, it is the first bit of cable it connects to. And rather an important one as this is how it derives it’s power. There is a lot more to it than that. Tons of info on the internet."
Nice spin.
Look, I’m not saying use lamp cord. But a good medical grade cable ought to do the trick.
Many amp MFG suggest going straight into the wall, yet there is a huge business out there selling giant power plants. I could care less if you put your money into it.
You are much better off putting $1000.00 into room treatments than a $1000 power cord.
But, whatever makes you happy. If you have endless funds, hell go for it.
Speakers/Room/Source/Amp
But feel free to explain it to me.
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techno,
The neoliths absolutely stomp the Magico's WCSS has, also stomps the B+W diamond series (possibly the most overrated series of speakers ever produced). The current Diamonds are the first ones remotely listenable over 90dbs for more than 10 minutes before becoming absolute ear bleeding bright.
As for the Focals... well I feel they are bright.
But, this isn't about my thoughts on the Diamonds or Focals as much as it is the neoliths.
Neoliths, properly powered are easily one of the most impressive speakers I've ever heard. Now, I'm a rock guy mainly but do appreciate other styles of music.
The Neo's do everything well. I don't love electrostats as I feel the smaller panels compress with a lot of rock music when pushed.
The Neo's (And the 15's even..) flat out awesome listening experience.
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4500.00 power cords.
So great.
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Rolling tubes, not sure it makes a product any better. Sound different, better to you, tailored to your tastes? Absolutely.
But better... maybe on an inexpensive piece. But why would a MFG cheap out on a 15k component to save 15 bucks on tubes?
With the BHK, if you watch/read the stories about development tube selection was a part of it. The designer did put in there what he felt was best.
Now, if it’s a matter of finding NOS tubes no longer in production, that may make a little more sense to me.
Hi-Fi vs Mid-Fi... suppose everyone has a different point where they think that happens. But price seems to be the biggest factor to many.
(don’t get me wrong, I think there are components that are mid-fi, vs hi-fi).
Interesting thread for sure. I know WCSS, and I know he loves what he is doing.
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MP,
I sure wouldn’t think the amp would affect the bass output on the 13a,. It’s an interesting question as the pre-amp certainly could and likely does affect the bass, yet the signal makes it’s way to the speaker VIA the amp sending it. But, then it’s crossed at the 13a and amplified and EQ’d (assuming you use the ARC feature).
My neighbor has the 11’s. What he focused on was a quality amp with the current to drive the panel (he had issues with one amp shutting down), a quality pre-amp and source. But with the ARC EQ on the bass - they sound really good.
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MP... while I’m not a huge room correction fan for 2 channel listening. I do think it helps most people with subwoofers, bass, and centers and surrounds.
Now DSP (Which I suppose some consider room correction), I have heard the JBL m2's set up properly. Those are a damn fine speaker. Industrial looking, pro amps, but man they do sound good.
Arc does a nice job with the bass for sure. |
Techno,
So much of it is system matching. Speakers to amps etc. We all know that.
Here is what I am pretty darn confident in saying about Pass Labs.
It's very, very rare that Pass doesn't at least sound "damn good" with just about any combo of speakers, cables, whatever tickles your fancy.
Might it always sound "the best" (to a given listener), maybe not.
But, it's very, very rare that you put Nelson's design with just about anything and go, oh crap, that sounds awful.
That is a pretty magical thing that Pass does. |
I’ve had the chance to demo the Neoliths a couple of times.
1. Axpona in Chicago 2015, demo’d with the 1.2kw mcintosh amps. Comfortably Numb - it was like being at a Floyd Show. Dynamics, seamless, just oustanding. The room wasn’t perfect, and while I like Electrostats, with rock at times I feel the smaller panels compress. It was one of the best speakers I’ve heard. Just outstanding.
2. PAV in Chicago, used the BelCanto Black system to drive them. Room not perfect, but they were further into the room. Rush, Tom Saywer among others. Again just outstanding. Not quite the oomph that the Big Mc Amps had. But was floored.
My neighbor run’s the 11’s. I like them, but I would want a slightly bigger panel.
But of the high end speakers I’ve had a chance to really listen to, it’s one of the few that I said, yeah, in the right room with the right power... I can see why someone would spend that much.
The DynAudio Consequence was another.
The big wilsons with the focal tweeters were too bright, I’d like to hear them with the soft domes.
The JBL 67000’s... in the right room, pretty awesome. Not quite the punch of the big Dyn’s and Neo’s on the bottom end.
But I’ve heard many other brands, frankly including Magico and YG that I went... nice, but even if I had the money, no thanks.
I think the only possible concern I would have for WC is the size of his room, but man even in a hotel room (granted it was a suite, but not huge), Comfortably Numb will stick in my head from that demo. It floored me. I've had some solid speakers since that time, but I've not gotten close to how that sounded. It was awesome.
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@viber6
There are a number of outstanding speakers with great dynamics below 30k.
Hell, there are a number of outstanding speakers in general below 30k.
I've heard the Tektons, in fact I've been to Terry Londons house and heard his. I understand what people like about them. They are a really good sounding speaker. Very Dynamic.
The double impacts for 3k, frankly are an absolute blast of a speaker. While I may have my issues with some of the Tekton stuff, from a sound perspective I totally get it.
The Double Impact SE at 6k, is NOT twice as good as the Double Impact. In fact, while better its a quick way to see the law of diminishing returns in audio.
The JBL M2, while "Pro-Audio" is one of the best speakers I've ever heard. I've heard the big Wilsons, Neoliths, Dyn Consequence. Are they better, sure - but not 5x better etc.
The K2S9900 - great speaker
Spatial Audio M3S Turbo at 3k, if set-up properly is pretty dynamic and fun.
LOTS of small builders that do great things out there also (Some of the Salk stuff is great).
It's a fun hobby, let it be that. |
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@jujubeez
While I'm not WC we actually know each other pretty well over years of audio discussions.
Personally, if you like Stat's, I think the 15a's are really an awesome bang for the buck. What has held me back on Stat's in the past is I'm a rock/blues guy. I listen loud, and many of the smaller panels I feel tend to compress at higher volumes. My neighbor has the 11's and while they are really nice at lower volumes, when I get Rock up around 95dbs with them - they compress.
The powered woofers are really nice. ARC does such a great job smoothing out the response and keeping them tight.
I've thought about the 15's many times. My room is probably a bit small for them.
What I like about Stat's, Open Baffle, OHM's, and a few others is that lack of box coloration on the highs. To ME they just sound so much cleaner, open, and natural. The downside to many Stat's and OB speakers - bass response can roll off (OB) and IMO until ML figured out the integration with the powered woofers, it wasn't real seamless.
OHM's (which I do like and own a pair), find a happy medium with a lot of bass, and nice open highs. There are some other trade-offs (LIKE EVERY SPEAKER).
But the 15's panels are big enough they don't compress, the woofers are fantastic.
Stat's DO have a smaller sweet spot to sit in. Just what they are.
As for the 250.8. I own one. It's great. Excellent midrange, but voiced like Nelson voices them, slightly more tube like. VERY good bottom end, but not a vice grip like some other amps. The top end is detailed and smooth. But, for detail freaks... might not be the be-all end all depending on the pre-amp etc.
I know many at Pass Labs even feel the 250.8 is the sweet spot in the line-up. Runs class A high enough to power most speakers at reasonable volumes, but has the extra juice when needed. I've had folks at pass tell me the 250.8 has the best midrange of the .8 series.
So, from my standpoint the 250.8 and 15's would be an excellent combination.
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In regards to the thread in general, WC seems to be having fun... some of you seem to literally have your self-worth tied up in it.
It's a freaking hobby. Arguing about anything on the internet is an exercise in futility, but arguing about opinions on personal preferences... of freaking audio equipment! Hilarious.
That said, I can't imagine anyone that enjoys audio hearing properly set-up neoliths and not thinking - holy shit, that sounds incredible. I believe someone here was commenting on the jumpers? The jumpers? Do you think ML would put out a 80k statement piece, and save 100 bucks on jumpers if they made a big difference?
Now, would you think the Neoliths are the best system you have ever heard? Hard to say. I don't know if they are the best I've heard. But I know my jaw dropped.
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Mikepaul,
I don’t have the 15a’s. I’ve demo’d them a bunch of times, and always enjoy them. One Day, maybe, just maybe...
You can find them for "reasonable" pricing (though 15k is still crazy to spend and I can’t believe I consider it).
I have a pass labs xp-12, it’s nice. It’s very neutral in my opinion. Frankly I think it’s more neutral that the 250.8.
(neutral always gets thrown around, by that I mean I don’t think it really adds much to the sound). I’ve used it with a few different amps, and generally hear subtle differences. Where I’ve owned other pre-amps and feel that the pre amp affects the sound.
My room is only 13 x 17, it’s treated well, it’s closed but my speakers run on the short wall.
I tend to listen a bit loud, I like a big sound, I run my bass a bit "hot", but I also don’t love using a subwoofer with my mains. I like detail, I don’t love rolled off highs, however I really really don’t like when cymbals become to "forward" in a mix. So while I like detail I get real touchy about cymbals. I do believe that box speakers have colorations in the upper mids and highs for sure. I also have found I do not like Be tweeters by in large. I know it's the implementation... but I just always feel the tweeter becomes the "show" on those speakers. Nice in a showroom, nice to show off to your friends but after a few hours... too much tweeter.
I tend to like a little "thicker" sound.
I just sold off my DynAudio Contour 60’s. They are a very good speaker. They do a lot of what I like, the Esotar is detailed without being hot, they have a lot of bass. The biggest issue I had was the soundstage while very defined for me was a bit narrow and didn’t have that "big" sound. It’s quite possible I like a slightly exaggerated soundstage. Which, considering I love going to concerts - makes sense.
Thought about JBL M2’s (which are spectacular speakers, but require pro-amps, DSP, and frankly are a fairly cheap cabinet and build). But holding off on those.
I also never thought I would spend even 10k on speakers, so for me to go north of that, it’s going to take something really special, or a different job!
I tend to believe in diminishing returns, particularly in audio.
I think there are some very good new speakers in the 3k range (most internet direct) same with amps.
then there is the 7-10k range.
Then I tend to think there is a final pretty big jump around 25k.
After that... I think what you get is better, but the differences become really expensive to hear.
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@bill_k
So what you are saying, is that listening loud is good for the amp. I like what you did there. |
@audiothunder
Regarding the Pass questions.
I have a 250.8 and XP12. I have some comments earlier in this the thread.
I would consider the XP12 to be pretty much dead neutral. More so than the 250.8
I don’t consider the 250.8 to be neutral, I really feel that it it voiced a bit "tube-like" in the midrange. Good top end, I don’t think anything is missing. But the sparkle isn’t like HOLY CRAP, did you hear how clear that cymbal is, it was almost like it was right in front of me!
But a Les Paul through a marshall stack, that big thick sound - yeah Pass does that.
But on the top end. Some people really like to not only hear cymbals but feel they can reach out and touch them, IMO I feel that cymbals should not come that forward in the mix (I love drums and cymbals but cymbals just stand out so much to begin with and I don't want to focus on them).
So, I think Pass builds more of a house sound into the amp, but leaves the pre-amp to be neutral.
The XP12 is a very good pre-amp. I don’t think however if you want your pre-amp to help color your sound, that it’s the one to get.
I’ve always kind of felt either let the amp or pre-amp be neutral, and get your flavor from the other.
In the case of Pass labs gear, I’ve always felt it’s the amps. I think if you want some (but not total tube like euphoria but the power of a solid state amp - Pass and frankly BAT is where I would look, along with BHK. I think Pass and BAT are a bit better in the bass department than BHK.
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Just a quick thought on WC's buying and selling.
I've both sold (actually is this thread my fault??) amps to WC when he got started, and I've purchased from him.
No issues with either. Just a hobby, some of you take this and yourselves WAY to seriously. |
@fsmithjack
unless you really have power hungry speakers, I would keep the 250.8 and play around with pre amps and possibly DACs and sources if you are looking to change your sound. Many at Pass even think the 250.8 is the sweet spot of the lineup.
Its a hell of a good amp.
That said... speakers still make the biggest difference! |
@fsmithjack I have not heard the Luxman (I don’t give opinions on products I haven’t heard). I’m sure it’s good stuff.
I have heard the 250.8 and 350.8. Obviously very close in character.
One of the the great things I do find with pass, I’ve yet to hear it with any speaker and think it sounded anything less than good. Usually it sounds great.
But, I tend to be more into listening to the music and like a live, big feel to it.
I dont want to sit and analyze my system every moment. |
It would certainly be nice like many forums if you could block seeing certain posters. Doesn't block it for anyone, but just to have it left out of your feed. |
I think there are a few things to keep in mind with the thread.
1. It’s a fun read. I’ve known WCSS for quite a while now, I’ve sold equipment to him (very early on) and bought from him. As a buyer/seller - dude is nails.
2. I view the thread a few ways.
a. - Before his move, the old room and generally before he went uber-insane high end
b. - After the move, and the new room
c. - After the Neoliths. WCSS has had numerous speakers, but his bent has been Electrostats. I would wager he has more time with the current ML line-up than anyone who is not a ML engineer or major ML dealer. I take his impressions of amps/pre-amps when reviewed on ML’s (early on on the little ones, or the neoliths) to be a much more accurate representation of what the equipment sounds like than his impressions with other speakers. His rooms have never been heavily treated so the impressions on the Stat’s are consistent.
3. Like myself, typically WCSS listens LOUD. I know lately he has turned it down a bit, but WCSS listens loud. That shapes impressions also.
4. We all have biases... like for me, personally I won’t spend a ton on cables and cords. I don’t use zip-cords for speaker wires but I don't spend a ton. But my XLR’s are mogami’s - good enough for a studio, good enough for me. I do have one "upgraded" powercord. I have a PS audio entry level one for my 250.8... only because it came with an amp I turned around quickly and figured why not keep it! |
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It's entirely possible that the Oppo 205 sounds better to some people than the Lampi.
A huge corporation with all sorts of resources, vs a smaller boutique company.
Doesn't mean that it is better, but it's entirely possible. Just as the reverse is possible. It's a hobby, based on personal tastes. Short of standard objective measurements- it is all subjective.
I like my Ohm Walsh 5000's a lot more than I liked my DynAudio Contour 60's... someone else might feel the exact opposite. |
@gtaphile
So if it’s more expensive, it has to sound better to everyone?
Is there a multiple where that happens for sure?
Ah, the speaker wire and interconnect companies love these thoughts...
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@gtaphile
Why should the Lampi best the Oppo? Besides cost? Honestly wondering. I'm not saying it doesn't, but it's not a given.
They look great, they are built by hand. I've heard the Amber and the Big 7, both are good (and obviously not the top end). Small company built by hand is very cool, I love smaller companies.
The Oppo in particular is interesting as it’s from a huge company, with massive resources and all objective tests show excellent measurements in every regard. Furthermore, those that have listened to them by in large praise them.
Now I don’t have a 205, I had one from the last run, but when someone on ebay was willing to pay me damn near 2.5 times what it cost... I sold it.
Just because it a product is multiple times more expensive, doesn't mean it performs better/lasts longer etc.
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@gtaphile
And I could make the argument that Oppo could buy in such larger quantities, and build in larger quantities, and have a team of engineers with resources design, test, and build it much faster and take advantage of... wait for it... economies of scale. Objectively, it also happens to measure tremendously well. Which, while I don't always think measurements tell the whole story - is really the only way to compare a product to another on a level playing field.
But that takes away the question as to why the Lampi MUST sound better.
It definitely looks great, was built with care, uses nice parts and I'm sure it sounds great.
But better... who really knows. All in the subjective world of the listener.
Subjectively, same system, same room, same DB level etc... sure you can test with your ears but everyone hears things differently and likes a different sound.
I have no idea which I would like better so it's pretty moot. Part of me now wishes I kept my 205 instead of flipping it when I got it so I could listen to it.
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