My Long List of Amplifiers and My Personal Review of Each!

WhitecamaroSS, you can upload your photos to Dropbox or other similar service, and post the links to the pics of your system to this thread. G.

Hi WhiteCamaroSS, clearly the Prometheus are going through their evolution..... Inevitably you will find days where the sound has improved, followed by a dip into dullness or hardness... Break-in takes time and patient... It will be interesting to hear your thoughts when they reach full bloom in several weeks.

G.

Hello Whitecamaross, I appreciate that the Prometheus are two hears old.... However, if tey have been offline and stone-cold for several weeks before you picked them up, they will require some two to three weeks of munching a signal to return to their top performance... I experienced this with my own Rowland M925s, which I stored for some six months during my household move.... It did take them 3 weeks to rebloom completely.

Excellet idea to use them for TV, etc... In addition, as I mentioned already, I recommend a steady diet of white noise at moderate-low volume whenever you are not using them.... Interstation FM hash from a tuner will do fine, or a break-in CD.... There are several of them on the market... E.g. Purist makes one such CD.

G.

Not as bad as that, Whitecamaross.... If well broken-in critters are disconnected for a day, a couple hours or three of crunching a signal will bring them back to full bloom.

In this, there is nothing unique to class D amps, nor to amps.... Amps, linestages, and CDps that have been in my system all "suffered" from the same maladroit malady.

G.

 hours

Hello Whitecamaross, while you will not need to wait until Christmas for your M925s to reach full bloom, it is highly likely that they will continue to mature for well over one single month, particularly if they are a factory-new set.

And even if they are not new, they might have been offline for quite a spell, and their original break-in might never have been completed.

PS. Please follow the directions in the manual for stacking the audio chassis on top of the power supply chassis with the 4 delrin beads in between.... The process requires two people to avoid damaging the casing. 

Also make sure that all the toggle switches on the back of the units are in the correct position for absolute phase, and balanced operation.... Check the manual. If you flip any of those switches while the units are powered up, a spike might end up frying your speakers.

G.

I freely admit that I have no experience with Bryston and SimAudio.

On the other hand I have owned 5 Rowland amps, 1 Aragon, and tested or reviewed several other amps.... With the exceptioon of two review candidates, they all matured positively a great deal with break-in... The two exceptions did go through some change with break-in, but did not improve per se... They remained unacceptable in the end... Just different from the initial state.

Funny enough, even the audio systems in my old Toyota Cyenna and new Prious had to break-in... Took several months for them to sound decent. The Prius in particular was initially scarily bad... Pretty nice now. 

G.

I do not know about that Whitecamaross, if as an audiophile you cannot trust your your own ears, what else is there to trust?

I thought that mistrust of the senses had gone out of style by the end of the Middle Ages *Grins!*

G.

WhiteCamaroSS, no CD player should be no issue for facilitating breakin of components.... I am positive you can find some atmospheric tracks of breaking beach surf, crashing waves, rainshowers, etc.... Not too far from white noise. Besides, I am sure you can find some online tracks of noise for breaking-in equipment.... From Purist and others. Worst case... Turn on your car radio... Tune to FM in between stations.... Record several minutes of the hash on your mobile phone.... Load the recording on your music server.... And voila! G.

Hello WhiteCameraSS.... Yes, intoxicating is the operative word when it comes to the Rowland M925 amps, even when fed through their stock power cords, isn't it?!

Just a reminder that if the amps have been in transit for several days, and have been stone cold for a few weeks/months before that, it is highly likely that you haven't heard anything yet from them... If you feel somewhat intoxicated already, you might be in danger of a little overdosing by the time rebreak-in is complete *Grins!*

... Be patient, and give them a good couple weeks of settling in with 24/7 operation before doing anything else with them, such as upgrading from their stock PCs to a loom of Cardas.

Concerning Cardas PCs, yes, there is profound synergy between Rowland electronics and Cardas cables. I have just installed a complete loom of Cardas cables in my system... Including the newest statement Clear Beyond XL PCs on Rowland M925 monos, Rowland Aeris DAC + PSU, and Esoteric X-01 CDp... Clear Reflection XLR and speaker wires, and Clear SPDIF coax. After a mere 48 hours of crunching signals, The result is quite simply STUNNING! I will be posting a detailed review very soon.

Saluti, Guido

Yes, M925 is an expensive amp. Yet, the entry point to the Rowland house sound is quite reasonable a smidjin below $3K for the M125 bridgeable amp, $6K range for the new M535 bridgeable, and $9.5K for the Continuum S2 integrated.

I might be evaluating M535 before long, and I will post my observations to Audiogon.

Saluti, G.

Hello Whitecamaross... And the funny thing is that, with your M925 monos, you haven't heard anything yet... Just let 'em steep for a spell until they reach full bloom *Grins!*

And then give them both the gift of Cardas Clear Beyond XL power cords.... Wait for few more days while the Cardas bloom and stabilize, and hold on to your seat... I am afraid that your musical intoxication will get a lot worse than what you are experiencing now.

Saluti, G.

Hello Whitecamaross, even though your Cardas Clear speaker wires are used, they likely require some 4 days of playing music to return to full bloom and for the treble to open up.

Just bear in mind that Clear is not the top of the line Cardas speaker wire... Clear Beyond is.... Alstewart can tell you about the audible difference between the two.

Saluti, G.

Hi greginnh, I have heard that K-01X does not have an attenuator/volume control on its analog outputs. And so it cannot drive an amplifier directly, but a preamplifier is always required... Is this correct?

Regards, G.

Hello Whitecamaross, Pandora’s perfect for breakin... Keep at it! G.

Hello Pokey, my estimation of M925 breake-in of 1K to 1.5K hours was predicated on the units being new. It appears that Whitecamaross’s M925 are previously owned/used units. They seem to have been offlilne for a while before WCSS picked received them. Re-breakin will probably take much less than 1K hours. Probably a few weeks of grinding signals will do the trick.

Saluti, G.

Hello Whitecamaross, are you using the same brand/model PCs and XLR ICs on all your three preamplifiers?

G.

Hello Pokey, if the M925 had about 100 hours when WC received them, he probably has some 300 hours of major evolution in front of him....During this time he might experience some performance cycling gradually tapering off.... After that, some 400 hours of further slow opening up..... Once he  approaches the 1K hours total, he will start experiencing progressively smaller refinement for another few weeks.

It is worth bearing in mind that what he has heard from his dealer might be an underestimation of total hours on the devices... So, his M925s might have been further along than 100 hours.

G.

eHello WhiteCamaross, like with any device, Capri S2 (hope you got S2 and not the original version), needs to be broken in, or settle down, depending on how many hours it has on it.

Keep in mind that Capri S2 at $4K retail, is not the Rowland reference product, but an excellent entry level pre. Of courseI have no idea which pre you will prefer , once Capri S2 has stabilized.

But remember... Be patient.

Saluti, G.

Hello WhiteCamaroSS, any sterility/digititis in Capri S2 indicates that the critter needs some real good grinding.... A well broken-in Capri S2 is actually subtly warm.

Saluti, G.

True enough, Whitecamaross, ROwland M925 took about 1500 hours to break in completely. THis has been the longest break-in that I have experienced on an amp.

Most amplifiers that have been in my system took about 1000 hours to reach their full performance.

The only amp that I recall taking only 600 hours has been the Merrill Teranis.

   G.

"the rowlands are almost winking
at me asking for more volume"

WC, A 2500W DC power supply in each M925 monoblock will do that *Grins!* 

And yes, the M925 monos are rather unflappable, aren't they?!  

G.

Hi WC, I am not surprised that you are enjoying M925 + Capri S2.... I heard Rowland M825 (stereo version of 925) + Capri S2 driving Joseph Audio Pearl 3 speakers a couple of years at RMAF in the Cardas room. The system was all connected and powered with Cardas Clear Beyond.  It was absolutely enchanting and immersive... Enormous stage from which instruments and vocalists emerged with incredible presence and zero fatigue. At each visit I had to spend a couple hours in the suite because I could never have enough of the magic.

Worth mentioning that Rowland, Joseph Audio, and Cardas have been partnering a lot at audio shows, because they share phylosophy of sound, and to my ears there really is so much synergy among the three brands... As of late, they were together at Expona and the Munich show.

BTW, for speaker wires I suggest you give a try the new Cardas Clear Beyond XL flagship... For ICs and speaker wires the flagship is Clear Beyond.... The new XL line is only on PCs.

In terms of break-in requirements, I have discovered that Cardas seems to be quite benign.... Some 4 days of crunching signals should give you a reasonable idea of their capabilities.... and a total of 2 weeks will bring out most of the magic of the loom. Note that if you are currently trying Clear, I understand that there is a big difference between Clear and Clear Beyond.

At my end, I have very recently completed break-in of a full Cardas loom. My system consists of Rowland M925, Rowland Aeris DAC +PSU ultracapacitor power supply, Vienna Die Muzik speakers, Esoteric X-01 used as transport)... Power cords are XL, and Cardas Reflection ICs and speaker wires.... Reflection being some two or three levels below Beyond.... What my system now gives me overall is grand. I am stunned that it is markedly superior to anything it has done until now. I am sorely tempted to eventually jump up from Reflection signal wires all the way to Clear Beyond... Meantime I am busy writing a detailed report on my experience with the current Cardas loom... I will post it to Audiogon as soon as it is ready.

Guido

"The 925 mono blocks are class A/B rather than class D."

Hello Charles, there is a lot to the design and implementation of Rowland M925 mono, and its brother M825 stereo.... Rowland has availed himself of a variety of technologies... Starting with PFC rectifiers, multi-regulated 2500W DC power supplies, Jensen 4-pole capacitors, Lundahl input transformers, multi-layer ceramic bords,  and more... At the core of the design there is a power conversion engine to do the final heavy lifting, and... this core does run in class D.

Saluti, G.

G.

Hello Whitecamaross, For all I heard, Esoteric K1 is an amazing single box CD player.... Yes, it does a DAC section which has inputs for external digital sources... But what I do not think it has, is an analog attenuator.... So you will need to use a preamplifier between it and your amps.

I wish you still had M925 and Capri S2.... When I had the older K-01 in my system, matched with M925 and the now withdrawn Rowland Criterion battery-powered pre, it was a marriage made in Heaven!

G.

Ahem, the tragic syndrome of Audiophrenia Furiosa that Robert Jerman hints at is discussed at some length in a scholarly editorial that I wrote several years ago for Positive Feedback....

https://positive-feedback.com/Issue46/audiophrenia.htm

Regards, Guido

Hi WhiteCamaroSS, unlike other DACs, K1 is not a launch&forget device.... I believe that it has a variety of upsampling settings and filters..... And audible results will be quite different with various combinations.... It is worth you do some experiments.

Let us know your results.

G.

Hi WC, why would you ever want to sell K1... At least for the next 3 or 4 years? the K1 CD/SACD player is the best single box solution on the market today.... If you ever sell it, the only way to go up the ladder without sliding down or sideways is to opt for the Esoteric multibox Grandioso. The G1 clock has existed since the days of the X-01.... It applies to K1, as well as to the multi-box Grandioso.... And likely to generations of Esoteric offerings in the future.

And if you are interested in optimizing K1.... After breaking in every filter and selecting your preferred one, is to use the G1 clock or one of its brothers.

G.

Hi WC... My bad... You are correct. K1 appears to have slectable upsampling 2X, 4X, 8X, and DSD.... For filters there seems to be only an on/off toggle... No filters selection per se.

Worth testing various upsampling rates with filters turned on and off. For break-in purposes, I recommend to use the filter toggle to the on position, so to exercise the filter circuit.

G.

Hello WCSS, when you had the Rowland m925 monos in the system, did you plug the monoblocks into a power conditioner, or each into a dedicated 20A AC line?

G.

WC, Clear is these days far from the Cardas state-of-art.... You should really consider Cardas Clear Beyond XL for PCs, and Clear Beyond for analog ICs and speaker wires... Cardas Clear does remain the top digital IC instead.

G.

Hello WCSS, like you, my bet is on Luxman.... Krell+Ref10 is likely to outperform Luxman in sheer muscularity.... Luxman is more likely to yield a more nuanced experience.

G.

Actually, Jon Stronczer of BelCanto told me that Black's power conversion stage  may be on customized NCore modules, rather than on standard NC1200. Hi WhiteCamaross, Bel Canto Black is -- together with the Rowland M825 stereo and M925 monos -- at the top of the NCore N1200 implementation piramid... And like all NC1200-based amplifiers, it is likely to require extensive break-in to reach best performance.

While I have not had the opportunity of having a Black in my own system, I suspect that full break-in might require anywhere from 1K hours to 1.5K hours from the time it emerged from the factory.

Any idea how many hours of operation the unit that you are receiving has already?

Even if it were fully broken in, the unit is likely to require two to three days of grinding some signal to restabilize after transportation in the cold of some truck or plane.

In case you asked... Yes, I heard Bel Canto Black at RMAF a few years ago... And yes, I was extremely impressed.

G.

Hello WCSS, rather than fiddling with eBay, I suggest you call Scott Markwell at Elite Audio Video, the Furutech distributor to the US.... Scott is a fab guy, and the ultimate source of Furutech info:

Elite Audio Video Distribution
P.O. Box 93896
Los Angeles, CA
90093
TEL: (323) 466-9694, x.22
email address: scot.markwell@themusic.com
web address: http://www.eliteavdist.com/

Saluti, Guido

If I remember correctly, a 30A outlet looks nothing like a regular outlet.... And requires a specialized 30A AC connector.

G.

@whitecamaross, you might discover that if you let the Bel Canto Black grind on a recording at low volume for some three days, the residual treble fatigue during transients will go away, the bass will be much more present, and the entire frequency range will assume greater harmonic texture... Such behavior is characteristic of well implemented NCore designs.

In general, class D amps are best left on 24/7, anyhow.

G.

Hello Markalarsen, congrats... Keep at it with your 24/7 breakin, It will continue for another month or so, and, unless Black is so different from other NC1200 amps, it will continue to open up and refine... Knowing what Jon Stronczer does with his amps, the end result is bound to be incredible!

NC1200 amps require patience *Grins!*

G.

I would not go as far as asserting that the speakers in questions are not good... Fact is that I am rather fond of Focals.

Yet, reality is that dealers often recommend those brands on which they have obtained higher margins.

G.

Interestingly, the Esoteric K-01X single box CD/SACD player has been replaced by the K1. According to all user reports I have read this far, K1 comfortably exceeds the performance of K-01X.

Worth pointing out that one of the difficulties of quick shootouts among DACS is that one might be pitting a well broken in device against one that is relatively newish off the factory floor. In such case, the newer device will inherently be performing at a disadvantage.

Furthermore, some DACs are designed to be "launch&forget" devices, while other ones are very sensitive to the selection of various upsampling rate and filters.... Each filter needs to be broken in separately... and Each combination of filter+upsampling potentially yields vary different results.

Finally, different DACs may be optimized for operation under different transmission protocols.... E.g. SPDIF, or USB, or single AES/EBU, or double AES/EBU.... And let's not forget the impact of external clocks.

In the end, comparing DACS -- while a fascinating process -- can be quite a significant enterprise, just to say it mildly.

G.

WhiteCamaroSS, knowing Jon Stronczer and his past achievements, and knowing a little bit about Black System internals, I venture to say that right now your demo Black is still very far from delivering its true potential. If you have the patience to let it grind along for a few weeks to normalize its behavior -- white or pink noise is just fine for the purpose, you might be amazed at what it is capable of.

Regards, G.

OK gents, I realize that the current heat wave cross the nation may be cause of some discomfort.... But.... May I suggest that until outside temps return to normalcy, an extra effort be applied to keep things, ahem.... Friendly like, in keeping with the fine tradition of this delightfully audiophrenic watering hole?!

Saluti, G.

I have listened to Luxman gear driving Vivid speakers several times at RMAF... The kind of successful combination that invariably caused me to refuse to get up from the armchair and leave the Luxman/Vivid suite. I also learned as of late that Vivid are extremely synergistic with Rowland amplifiers... Too bad WCSS no longer has possession of the M925 monos.

Yet, M925 are not the only Rowland amps worth exploring... I For example, I have listened to the 400W Continuum S2 integrated several times, and I always found this integrated to be incredibly graceful. One more Rowland amp that intrigues me perhaps even more -- No, I have not heard it yet, but have heard very good things about it -- is the new M535 bridgeable... I suspect that a pair of those with their 900W per side would be quite scrumptious driving the Vivids *Grins!*

G.

Vivid and Luxman make for a very nice match, no doubt about it. Vivid seem to work best with amps that are very musical, very much like Luxman, as well as my own fave brand... You are sure to enjoy them!

Saluti, Guido

eWhat a fabulous birthday present WC!!!

At my end instead, to celebrate my upcoming 65th, I just made me the present of a brand-spanking new Wessex Festivo 4-valve compensated euphonium.... Lovely critter was just delivered yesterday:

https://wessex-tubas.com/collections/euphonium-and-baritone/products/festivo-front-valve-compensated...

And right now I sound possitively horrid on it.... No amount of in-room treatment will ever improve that... Only practice, practice, and... More practice!

G.

Yeah...  I also hate boring music... That's why I listen mostly to classical *Grins!*

You are right WCSS.... And my bad habit is to start "conducting" when there is a piece that really excites me... And subvocalize the bass line to boot.... All fine when I do it at home, but you can't believe how annoying that was for ppl at RMAF.... I had to learn PDQ to curb my enthusiasms and be still and quiet like a real serious&respectable audiophile *Grins!*

G.

Hmmm... We should consider that WCSS is having fun, first and foremost.... While his never-ending quest is often a source of information/inspiration for many of us, he is not running a Customer Service group chat under contract.... As such, Many posts he responds to, and some he does not.... And that is just fine.... Do what I do, sit out in the shade, and sip icewater to chill out *Grins!*

G.

Hmm, lemme see if I can explain our heroic friend WCSS's acute manifestation of Audiophrenia Furiosa in bulletted form....

* He can do it because his wife is a Saint!

* His spirit is that of an explorer of old, Always restless, always questing, always yearning... Not so much that of the pioneering settler who explores every last nook and cranny of his magic valley nestled amongst the tallest hills and then happily puts down roots forever.. The true explorer can't help it wondering about What's just out of sight, beyond that next hill, and is compelled to take immediate action.

* Conversely, the generational exploration of the World that in some 80,000 years inched early human habitation from East Africa, through the Southern coast of the Arabian peninsula, the whole landmass of Asia, the Aleutian land bridge, and then gradually South through the Americas, all the way to Tierra Del Fuego is alien to WCSS's "forma mentis"

* Thus, the goal is as much the experience of the journey, as are the resulting scattered bits of knowledge and the fond memories of its happenings. Read Charles Darwin's The Voyage Of The Beagle(1)... you will grok the spirit.

WCSS's eternal question is... "What if?"

* WCSS's back does not get dislocated by hefting ungodly weights day after day *Grins!*

* He is having load of fun doing what he is doing, and is happiest when we can enjoy his adventure vicariously....

* ... But WCSS does not feel particularly obligated to heed every suggestion -- sometimes more like obsessive demands for methodological conformance or directional intimations -- from the other denisens of this most audiofoolish watering hole... This being a Free world, and all that jazz.

...

Bottomline: let's relax and enjoy our friend's adventure, even though mostly vicariously.... Simetimes we will agree with his choices and the -- never permanent -- turn he has taken, while other times we will wonder... Yet always we must admit that he, and all of us, are having fun.... At WCSS's not unconsiderable expense, that is... Ah yes, did I already mention that his better half is most certainly a Certified Saint(2)?

Saluti, G.

Footnotes:

1. Downloadable from: http://www.gutenberg.org/ebooks/944

2. WCSS's better half should be cloned!

Hello WCSS, have you ever considered doing some speaker placement using the Masterset process devised by Peter Gansterer of Vienna Acoustics and John Hunter of Sumiko.... It does take a modicum of patience, but you achieve achieve good results on your own without paying a cent in room treatment or active compensating systems.

Here is a link to a somewhat simplified DIY form of Masterset:

https://www.dropbox.com/s/ud04dqtmas5pw2k/master-set.pdf?dl=0

There is a bit more to MasterSet than what is described in the file, yet the document is a good starting point.

Saluti, G.

PS. If you decided to ignore Masterset, I promise you I shan't pester you about it every second day *Grins!*

Historically, I have found Focal to be more musically and emotionally satisfying than Magico.... But the Focals being factory fresh might play against them.... WCSS, will you be patient enough before lifting camp and trekking for the next hill?

G.

Edginess is not necessarily always a simple sign of high resolution.... It can be a warning sign that intermodulative distortions mioght be creeping into the treble region.

THis does not mean that intermodulation is generated by the speakers though... It might very well be that the origin is somewhere else in the audio chain.... Components, cabling, or even the AC line.

WCSS, I know that classical might not be your sup of tea.... But some classical cuts can easily reveal if treble intermodulation is in the works.... Typicall where high strings are playing 7th chords on the dominant, preparatory to resolution of cadenzas onto the tonic... An excellent example is found in the intorduction of the first movement of Dvorak's string sextet with string bass... If there is no intermodulation, the 7th chord comes out as pure, complex, and highly resolved.... But if somewhere in the chain treble frequencies are artificially intermodulated, those chords become horridly schreechy and unlistenable.

Saluti, G.

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