alonski,
Well, as you read, I have a problem. That is my passion for music reproduced well in my home. I know my style may turn some off but I thought it may be interesting to post my (live) experience. I hope some can appreciate it.
Regarding the Origin Live belt... does your TA motor use a flat belt like my motor w/ Merlin power supply?
The Phoenix Tachometer.....would it be in any way superior to my Sutherland Timeline just to "check on speed stability"?
My tt package included a Gingko cover, it's nice but not necessary. I would not have spent $400 on it myself.
This is my initial response, I will re-read your post again. Thank you for responding.
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...regarding the less than stellar machining of the platter... since the sub-platter is machined to a higher tolerance and the belt rides on this, the main record platter doesn't have as much of a significance in terms of speed stability. |
alonski,
I'm totally misunderstood. I knew and accepted your post, I just (tried) to inject some levity.
Sometimes I just wish I could be understood. (A ha-ha and a damn right. all at once.) I'm laughing now.
(My dust cover was included in the package deal).
Thank you for responding. I most likely will call on you in the future.
Happy Listening!
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alonski,
I finally received a new belt from Townshend. I ordered one from Origin Live as well the other day. Looking forward to comparing.
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I have received my Origin Live belt and it's been in use for a few hours. I've read on this site about others' positive experiences with this belt. So, I expected to hear something good. What I did not expect was to be blown away by all of the ways this belt has changed the musical presentation and my enjoyment from listening now.
The paper that comes with the belt says to let it run in for an hour before hearing it in it's best light, (paraphrasing). I did that. What I noticed immediately without listening was how quiet it was. Upon touching the motor while running, there is noticeable less vibration. Now for the big test. (It seems that somehow the belt absorbs the motor vibrations without transferring them to the sub-platter).
My listening experience is now transformed. I realize that is a big word but it best describes the difference I'm hearing. The noise floor has been lowered dramatically. This allows for hearing nuances that I did not notice before or the ones I barely noticed before, being more easily heard now. The feeling of less electronics in the way of the music is there. I feel like I'm in the studio while listening to studio recordings. The stage seems to have been pushed back or maybe I should say in no way "in your face". (I listen in the near field in my small room.) The bass is much more musical and presented with greater authority and the entire low bass spectrum is of much more importance and meaningful than before.
The belt is shorter that the stock belt. This seems to have logical positive implications as well.
Did I say quiet? Yes the entire listening experience has a quieter background. I'd say in terms of a percentage of increased listening satisfaction, I'd give it around 30%+. This has to be one of THE best bang for the buck upgrades for a tt owner.
Thank you Origin Live! |
By the way...this belt has a two year warranty. IME, unheard of.
I think they are safe. |
bdp24,
Yes it has a sub-platter. On OL's website, I don't recall a pre-made belt for your specific table but they will make one if it needs a different size. They give you two ways of measuring for a custom belt.
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kps25sc,
Your comments are really appreciated! I'd love to hear your impressions when you've heard the new belt.
Happy Listening.
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I have been looking forward to this weekend for more great sounding tunes. I decided to try the recommended talc on the belt. I tried it this way on both sides of the belt and I was no longer connected to the music like I was last week.
I wiped off the talc and put on the same lp I had been listening to previously. There it is, I got it back... my connection to the music. The bass tightened up, the (energy) returned, my emotional connection to the music is back.
This, to me, is a substantial difference. So be forewarned.
Happy Listening.
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BTW and FWIW, I'm finding myself listening with my latest metal clamp (and my older expandable metal washer) I bought a few weeks ago for 97% of recordings. The clamp has Rock 7 printed on it.
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Setting up your Rock 7: (the relationship of motor to platter, IE: a starting point.
I write this based upon my experiences so far...
What I find, sounds the best, based upon my trying different motor heights vs, platter...
You may be wondering, WTF? Well, this does make a big difference my friends.
I've tried several motor heights vs it's relationship to the platter. In every mode, there was A difference. (You may prefer one to another). I'm just reporting that a difference is to be had via these (two relationships).
For those of you who may want to ascribe to my personal best..here you go..
Once you've aligned the motor housing with the platter and the belt is riding in the center of the sub-platter, and the belt on the pulley seems to be slightly above the conical part of the pulley.. you've come (very far).
Now on to the best sounding setting: Assuming you have a visual "sight line" in relationship to the underside of the platter to the top of the pulley...the top of the pulley should be ALMOST level with the underside of the platter. Maybe VERY slightly above or VERY slightly below.
If you've achieved this, you're going to hear THE best sound. Simple, right?
In theory yes, in practice, it takes a little more involvement. Some may think, that I'm not serious,...I ask those, this.... "You want me on that wall... you need me on that wall"..
Happy listening
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of coarse this assumes that the tt feet are tightened up as far as can go to the plinth.
Happy listening
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It's been quite a while. I've been thinking about my current set-up and my ongoing TT project. One of the big issues that TT manufacturers have trouble dealing with is decoupling the lp from the bearing. How does one remove the resonance of the bearing from the lp? I think I've done it by accident on my Rock 7.
As owners know, the way the platter is made on this table is unique in how it accepts the clamp that Townshend makes. I use two mats. One a Funk Firm 5mm Achromat w/ my 1mm flexible vinyl mat. I think I wrote about it earlier. These mats bring the lp above the top of the female receptacle of the spindle acceptable Townshend clamp.
When I put on a lp, I eye it for on-center play. So, essentially, I'm decoupling the lp from the bearing. Right? I believe that the positive effects of the mats are producing great sound in conjunction with this bearing/lp decoupling.
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@bdp24, Did you ever buy the Mark Baker belt for your table? I've found a material that I'm using as a (mat) that surprisingly, works very well on my Rock 7 @ my VPI.
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bdp24, FWIW, I have some parts left off of my VPI HW-19 you may find helpful. I have a Mk IV plinth @ an original VPI (tall) dustcover. Maybe more stuff???
I have my highly modified base that includes Symposium Rollerblocks that greatly increased this TT's performance. Lots of stuff?
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bdp24, The reason I reached out was to see if you would be willing to try out my platter mat material. I think you'd approve. When you mentioned the VPI, it got me in seller mode. If you're interested, you can PM me.
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bdp24,
Thanks for your input!
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bdp24,
You may recall a thread "turntable isolation" (I believe) where I posted my using springs under my tt support (wall mount) and their effectiveness in which you remarked. I'm very excited to experience the Townshend table and the damping trough at the cartridge end. Do you recall the damping fluid viscosity off hand? I'm an ET owner. I've experienced the damping at the (other) end. This should be quite the experience!
I'm currently running Anti Cables 6.2 cryo'd tonearm cables. They use the latest KLEI rca's. I also used the original silver bullet plugs on my DIY tonearm loom on my ET. I'm a fan of his products.
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The table has arrived. One question so far, I've cleaned the spindle and bearing shaft. (Wondering if there's a ball bearing still in the shaft?) When I place the spindle into the shaft, it spins freely. There is some slight horizontal play. Is this normal? |
According to the manual, there is no separate ball bearing. Just wondering about the play? |
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sbank,
I'll be using the FF arm that came with the package.
( I was just making an observation about the ET.)
I think I'll send my question to Dan @ EAR USA. After an initial set-up, with oil in the bearing shaft, belt on, and platter on, it seems to be fine. It's an interesting and beautiful design, IMO. I've been like a kid in a candy store this afternoon... getting to know my new friend.
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bdp24,
Thanks for the response. I think/hope it will be a great comparison to my VPI Classic 3 Sig. SE / 3D arm which has great bass/slam.
Cheers |
bdp24,
I've always read great things about the London/Decca cart. You, being a musician, I'd like to know what attributes with respect to that cart/and in the Rock 7 you find appealing?
Thanks! |
bdp24,
Could you comment on my observation that when I cleaned the spindle shaft/bearing well, then inserted....I noticed some horizontal play. After installing oil and an initial set-up, this does not seem to be a problem.
I'd appreciate your comments.
Thanks!
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sbank,
Sure. I plan on reporting my experiences. Thanks for your attention.
It may be a few weeks.
Cheers! |
FWIW, here are my findings with two different mats:
I came across a material, solid vinyl, no backing, flexible, that is 1mm thick. It has one side smooth and one side with hundreds of slightly raised, symmetrical "bumps". I use it with the smooth side facing the platter.
I've trimmed it so there is a 1&1/4" hole in the center and the outer edge is around 11& 1/2". This allows for the fact that most lps are thicker around the spindle area and it allows the mat to sit just inside of the raised outer edge of most vinyl records.
Positives:
(1) It is only 1 mm thick
(2) It is flexible so it can slightly conform to any irregularities
(3) It extends the Rock 7's attributes further
Negatives:
(1) It does have some static electricity issues that I negate with my Mapleshade gun on each side. (I believe this product is no longer offered?)
I first used it on my VPI Classic 3 Sig SE with surprising positive effect! I had since pulled that TT out of my system.
I hesitated to try it on the Rock 7 because I thought it probably would not have a positive effect since this TT's platter is suppose to mimic that of a vinyl record. I could not have been more wrong!
I have since purchased a Funk Firm Achromat (5mm version). This mat seems immune to static. I've tried both mats separate and together. My findings on the Rock 7 are, separately the thin mat sounds great and is a welcome addition to the Rock 7. The Achromat too, is another welcome addition. Then I tried them together. The thin mat under the Achromat,... Cha-ching! Absolutely wonderful! Even with the benefits of the trough on the Rock 7, the interface of the stylus to the record still benefits from this additional isolation.
In percentage terms, on their own, I'd give my thin mat a rating of 85% of the Achromat. Together, they work extremely well.
I'm close to finalizing my new wall mount system that will allow me to use both TTs. This will be beneficial for me to readily evaluate system changes.
Happy Listening!
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bdp24,
Your choice of tonearm for your VPI is interesting. I've owned a VPI HW-19 MkIV/Et 2.5 for over 2 decades.
After changing to my current tts, I now realize my past history was, while interesting, a venture in "not really moving forward in any meaningful way". I now understand the limitations of an air bearing tonearm on a sprung suspension TT. The ET has limitations as well, despite of other postings.
The Trans-Fi is a different animal. The ET is a tale of "the tail wagging the dog". I now realize this.
My history with the ET is, clean/stable air is of most importance. This is expensive! How does the Trans-Fi differ in this area?
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bdp24,
I spoke with the US distributor today and I concur with your assessment. He did give me Mr. Townshend's # and did provide a willingness to help in any way he could. The trough fluid viscosity is 12,500 cs. According to him, my tt is a later model that does not use a separate ball bearing. I have lots of questions for MT. I'll report back when I get the answers.
Thank you for your description of the London/Decca. Sounds fantastic!
I appreciate your time and expertise in responding. Thanks! |
bdp24,
I just spoke with Max. He told me the bearing does have a slight bit of play and mine should be fine. The power supply I have (Merlin) he said isn't a completely dc design. He went on to say he worked on a dc motor for three years and couldn't overcome a glitch that affected speed accuracy and dropped that project. The Merlin he says is his best design and 100% reliable a stable.
He said his new tt will come out in around 6 months and cost 4 times of my unit. He says my tt has bested 10k+ designs and says "I have gold dust".
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alonski,
Hi,
In my research, the Rock 7 platter is of a substance called "plastisine"(spelling may be off).
It is indeed a material to mimick the vinyl record. I have had several "acrylic" platters in house, this is different. Though I've yet to hear it, it is of a different feel, and overall weight as well. Interestingly, as opposed to my VPI's heavy platters, this fairly lightweight platter w/ no ball bearing, spins very, very freely. Almost like one would expect from a heavy, especially heavily outer weighted platter. (This seems to be just one more positive attribute of a very well thought out design!)
I had recently been looking into Origin Live products for a tt project I have going on. In researching the belt, I've found nothing but positive remarks. I obviously, cannot remark on anything yet. It is in my thoughts.
One of my (need to own) cartridges is the K Purpleheart. I'd love to know what viscosity of trough fluid you use with that cart?
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bdp24, alonski,
One of the issues I'm running into (without even hearing it yet) is when I get the platter level, I then put my level on the arm pillar, it is off level.
This is just one aspect, (similar to using an ET arm, and thankfully I have that knowledge going in) that makes taking time at first, that benefits the actual, later experience!
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nsp,
I will comment on the differences at a later date. Thanks for your comments.
alonski,
I'm using a MANA bubble level. I don't see the bubble change enough when I place it on any surface for it's weight to be a factor. I'm having to make some shims out of paper to get the arm pillar level when the platter is level. What I've learned when leveling the table is to get your tt support platform level so I don't have to adjust the stock (feet/springs). Using the counterbalance weight solely for the leveling is optimal as the tt remains more stable. Almost there. I couldn't wait any longer and did a rough cartridge/alignment and quick listen. Without the cart being perfect and no trough fluid, I could hear a basis for very good things to come. The motor speed is a little fast. I believe I need a new belt. I set the motor further out that recommended to get the speed close to correct with my Timeline.
Thanks.
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Hi Robes,
I purchased my Rock 7 as a package deal that included the DC motor/power supply. Mine is a later version that has a different bearing design as well. The power cord on my TT has a DIN plug on the power supply end so one can't go buy a replacement off the shelf. The motor on mine has a conical pulley and uses a flat belt. So the TT in the review you mentioned is the early Rock 7 and has none of Max's later thoughts/upgrades. The upgrades I've made to my Rock 7 are the Mark Baker belt and the two mats. Total cost under $150.00. Total % of increased enjoyment is off the charts!
My mentioning all of the clamps/weights I've used were in conjunction with my two mats. These mats alone or together bring the TT's performance up substantially. (I've never used or tried a periphery ring weight).
The last time I had my Classic 3 Sig SE in my system using my 1mm mat, it was an ear opener. The sound became more naturally expressed with much more musical bass, allowing me to hear/follow more low end info with greater clarity and expression. When I added the SS weight with the mat, the sound became more strident, less natural. This same difference was experienced with any of my other weights/clamps to certain degrees.
If you haven't already, you should read the Stereophile review of the Rock7/Funk Firm FXR.
I'd like to hear from you when you find out if the trough assembly is available and at what cost. I sincerely doubt if Max would be willing to work out a mounting system for another TT.
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lohanimal,
Thanks for sharing your experiences. I haven't asked or looked to see what brand of motor I have. I did notice the vibration it made. This may be partly due to the way it mates to it's (level adjustable) housing. I did notice when I installed the Mark Baker belt this vibration lessened and the musical presentation was noticeably quieter.
I too was a little concerned with the speed being slightly fast and the Merlin not having a pitch control. For now, it just sounds so great that I really don't think about it.
robes,
I meant to say above that the DIN plug is on the motor side.
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I thought I should go ahead and make some initial observations after some 10 hours or so of listening. This isn't a formal comparison to my VPI Classic 3 SE Sig but a small bit of insight to what I'm experiencing. This is in part due to my excitement and to document what I'm hearing initially. My phono stage isn't balanced so I cannot use the same cable to compare my two tt's.
When I switched out my VPI for the Townshend, I had been listening to my Acutex 420 STR w/ shibata stylus re-tip and then switched to the Brinkman Pi. I used my Anticables 6.2 cryo'd phono cable w/ that set-up.On the Townshend, I put on my Dynavector Karat D3 that has many hours on it. I'm using the Discovery Plus 4 here.
On my "go to" lp for system evaluation, (Shawn Colvin "Steady On"), the center image is the most focused/stable as I've ever heard. The two female vocals, when singing together are better articulated and very easy to separate individually and are more in "their own space". (this aspect continues on through every lp going forward). LP surface noise is lowered. This all brings increased transparency and a clearer overall sound. Live recordings sound more, well, (live) and a greater sense of "you are there".
On recordings with piano, the key strikes are present very clear and accurate. I'm getting a grater sense of no electronics is the signal chain.
Queen's "News Of The World"/We Will Rock You...the foot stomps and hand claps sound much more realistic and have a greater spread.
Low bass, 30hz + below is more meaningful and I get the sense that these frequencies are more "filled in".
Cheers!
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bdp24,
I thought you may be interested in this...
Last night, PBS had a special "The Last Waltz" concert. After watching a while, I put on my MFSL "The Band".
I had previously thought it was kind of murky or muddy in the lower frequencies. Not now! Also, the whole lp is more like "you are there". The rest of the frequency range is more transparent and revealing. This may be why some have described their experience with this tt, upon listening to a studio recording, "like listening to a master tape".
I've never heard a master tape but I think I now understand more this sort of description.
Cheers!
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One (important) thing, ...I just realized...
I don't feel a need to adjust for differing record thicknesses.
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OK..... I've been listening today for 12 hours straight.
Still not tired. My plan is to go for 12 more hours.
This would not have been a possibility before.
Right now, I've got Mark Knopfler/Emmylou Harris "All The Road Running" spinning. Sounding fantastic!
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anyone out there who would like to keep me honest?
I'll try and check in every hour with my play list.
The Rock 7 is sounding fantastic!
I did change some cables during the day. I found that the cables I was using with the VPI weren't the best for the Townshend.
I'm going mostly copper. The Discovery Plus 4 & Bob's Devices (mid level) cable on the front end.
My speakers are Usher Tiny Dancer, Mini One, Diamond's. I'm very much liking my Abbey Road Bi-Wired speaker cables.
Up next... Mark Knopfler "Shangri-la". Should be great!
Cheers?
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...did you ever hear the one about...???
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should I be enjoying listening while keeping my promises? We will see. I'm trying to decide what to put on next after the (masterwork) I'm currently listening to. Hum???
So. today I've been evaluating in my mind..
The tonearm
The platter.
The VPI's 3D arm is/was fairly neutral. Or so I thought?
The Classic platter/bearing? Yes! Wait!. NO ...after hearing the Townshend platter made of plasticine, a material that mimicks a vinyl record. ...
( This does seem to make a BIG difference my friends!) I tried different clamps/weights on the Townshend, to no positive attribute. This is a GOOD thing!
I think the motor is not a high torque variety. When I barely apply force enough to clean the platter while it spins, it bogs down easily........
Up next... Neko Case "Canadian Amp" ... if I could only............
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Listened to side one of the NC lp. Now putting on "Black Star" /David Bowie.
A great listen... in the dark. This lp may not be for everyone. Upon several listens, it is really a masterwork, IMO. Sonics are very, very good!
Check out "Lazarus"!!!
( I think Bowie knew.....)
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Although I've never bought much Bowie, I've always appreciated his work.
Somehow, "Black Star" just grabs me and won't let go. I'm thankful that his last work appeals to me so.
A great, late night lp!!
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Cleaning Buddy Guy's "Walking Through The Woods"/MCA heavyweight lp. I have not listened to this lp but once, well over 20 years ago. Now is as good a time as any, right? I thought you'd agree.
(Saw him several years ago locally. He was very energetic and actually very vocal on how much he respected newer (blues) artists. He made it clear how much he thought of John Mayer. Buddy walked around, while playing, he walked through the audience then up in the upper seating then back down. He is a great (showman))!!!!
The Townshend just sounds right! It's a joy to listen to, or through? Because it really kind of makes all of my equipment disappear. Nice... real nice!
Just started side two.
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Don't think I'll make it folks. been listening for around 15 hours straight. The Townshend is still rocking!
Peace!
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noromance,
I really appreciate your response!
It was my goal to, (instead of the usual comparisons of equipment), instead to have a "live" kind of experience for anyone reading. I thought this would be a new/appreciated way of doing things.
I've listened for around 8 hours today.
Suzanne Vega's Solitude Standing"... Wow!!!
I'm hearing all of the "lost" subtle info now. Her voice takes on a new, more personal meaning!
I've found my "holy grail" in turntables! |
I think I have to go to work tomorrow. |
bdp24,
I've read through your comprehensive explanation of the principles behind the Rock's design and how they work in practice. I thank you for taking the time to write this. I loved reading it!
One statement you made really stuck out to me..."I, myself, don't want to hear the ringing of undamped resonances..."
After listening to my VPI Classic 3 SE Sig, that has the 3d arm, then the Rock.... with the sonic differences I'm now hearing, this makes perfect sense! I may say that the VPI's design being mostly (mass)... while having attributes, doesn't really compete with the Rock's unique, simple and effective design.
Do you or any others here know whether or not the motor w/ the Merlin upgrade needs to be oiled? Thanks.
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I was just wondering... how many more years of pleasure, how much money I may have saved, how many smarter purchasing decisions I may have made through the past 30 years if I could have had this table from the beginning?
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I mentioned earlier, setting up the arm pillar.
What I've found is the center pillar risers that are basically long through-threaded nuts...... when using the supplied bolts without any washers, the top & bottom bolts will "bottom out" or "meet" inside of these "threaded nuts/risers" before the top and bottom plates can be fully tightened. I ended up using a metal washer between the bottom bolt and the bottom plate in order to allow enough space inside of these "long threaded nuts" so the whole set-up could be completely tightened.
Even then, I made some paper washers of different thicknesses and through trial and error am using one or two in (2) different places right beneath the top plate. This gives me the best leveling of the arm pod.
All of this really makes a big difference regarding my cartridge azimuth and having the center image really shine!
Since I purchased this table used and on-line without the benefit of a well written manual and/or a dealer's help, this is what I've come up with. It's really sounding fantastic!
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