Robsker wrote,
"But power cords no. I talked recently to Frank Van Alstine on power cords and he laughed at the notion that people spend over $50-70 for a PC... said, from an engineering standpoint, that anything more is a waste of $."
There are quite a few folks with the mindset that if the electronics (power supply) is engineered correctly and the power cord is engineered correctly and the rest if the system is engineered correctly then power cords don't matter. The same folks argue that since the power has to come all the way from the power plant that nothing matters from the wall outlet to the electronics. It's laughable that all this kind of backwards thinking is still going on 35 years after the cable debate began. I have a sneaking suspicion that many folks just cannot escape the noise floor, even the most illustrious. |
But Schubert, if how this stuff works can't be technically explained, or can only be partially explained, upon what principles and upon what basis do the designers of the power cords design them?
The likely answer, as I see it: Upon some combination of trial and error, using a relatively limited number of systems; pet theories, whose applicability across a wide variety of systems is unproven; and, perhaps most significantly in the case of expensive power cords, by overkilling every parameter that the designer considers to possibly be relevant. With the degree of overkill increasing as the price of the cord increases.
Implicit in my earlier post in this thread is the thought that the system and component dependency of those effects that ARE technically explainable, as well as the fact that those particular benefits are obtainable at relatively low cost, can be expected to loosen the correlation between power cord performance and power cord price. Each of the three approaches to power cord design and development that are listed in the preceding paragraph can be expected to further loosen that correlation.
Regards,
-- Al |
it is not easily heard and they the listeners were not stone cooled deaf as you said. They the listeners listened used a double blind test and could not hear a difference. That Mr. Schubert is the only proper way anyone can evaluate and determine if there is a difference. I myself am sick and tired of the self righteous so called golden eared. Who claim that it is so easy to tell the difference between different audio components. When in fact many blind studies have proven just the opposite. It is more tiresome to hear your rant Mr. Schubert on how gifted you are and blessed. That I should make a special visit to Lourdes to correct my deficiency in the hearing department. I can guarantee that neither my hearing or my common sense are wrong. And I can defiantly say that in a double blind test neither you or anyone else can hear any difference with any pc Mr.Schubert. |
It's tiresome listening to the Flat Earth Society explain what a human being hears in terms of math and Newtonian psychics.
A human is a miracle of integrated being that hears with its ears, eyes, brain, CNS ,memory, conscious cells in its stomach and many other ways we know nothing about. Not to mention its soul. Of course if you can't see something you have trouble discerning, as you do with seeing if you can't hear.
Conductors in their 80's who can't hear a 5kz tone, routinely correct players playing 10hz tones!
We humans are several orders of magnitude beyond explanation
by Quantum means, much less by some fool running a double-blind "test".
There are more things on heaven and earth than are dreamed of in your tests , Horatio.
One of them is when you leave the mystical out of the musical equation I don't know what answer you may get, but I do know it will be wrong. |
Well they must be stone deaf then, I'm 78 and can EASILY hear differences. |
Suggest you buy used, if possible. Also, connectors make an enormous difference -- avoid brass and nickel. Duplex outlet makes a huge difference -- Oyaide R1 seems to be the best affordable outlet -- as usual, avoid brass and nickel. Chassis IEC inlet makes a huge difference -- avoid brass and nickel. Without good interfaces, you'll never hear the goodness of a good cable.
Lastly, plating changes the sound. Rhodium, silver, gold, platinum and palladium each have a sonic signature. |
The best diminishing return has stock power cable. It's usually included with component at no extra cost. |
Agree that the used price on the Audience Powerchord E is a great buy now that the SE is out. |
In double blind testing audio reviewers could not tell the difference between PC's that were $50 and those at 8K. Several such studies have been conducted --- all with the same results. This would suggest that the "perceived" differences that a cable owner hears is likely rationalization for paying what they paid (or some other psychological reason for the perceived differences). Perhaps there are "real" differences, albeit subtle, in certain systems with fairly unusual system synergies --- but in controlled settings, no one has been able to double-blind distinguish between PC's.
That said, interconnects and speaker cabling is indeed quite a different story --- there the differences can be fairly large. But power cords no. I talked recently to Frank Van Alstine on power cords and he laughed at the notion that people spend over $50-70 for a PC... said, from an engineering standpoint, that anything more is a waste of $.
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08-05-13: Jafant
OP-
any/all cabling (power cords included) should reflect 10-20% of your system's cost.
MIT would argue that ;) I agree you Jafant....I have burned through a lot of dough trying cables....haven't tried them all but enough do draw my own conclusion. My opinion is there are a lot of great cable/designs in the sub to slightly over 1K range and after that you get into what seems to me to be the search for extreme resolution. I am more in the musicality camp and some of these flagship and near flagship cables just leave me cold....maybe you need an uber expensive system to enjoy...that I do not have. |
Unless one burns in the power cords on a cable cooker and or cryogenically treats them, in addition to the usual break in, I suspect it's very difficult to say one has really gone all the way with a particular cord. The costs for burn-in and cryo are relatively small. |
All my power cables are Audience E's. As far as I'm concerned, they're hard to beat for the price. |
Obviously diminishing returns apply to life in general. |
It's possible a $1000 power cord could be 3x better then a $500 pc. It all depends on your system's synergy. On your system page you have several different pc's, have you rotated the cords on your electronics/conditioner? This could end up being a free upgrade. |
Zd542, me either-I've swapped tuners and had the whole system change when playing CD.
I think the variables involved in both ears and gears are infinite, to me the fun of audio is "whats next".
I can get carried away by Bach on a boombox. |
OP-
any/all cabling (power cords included) should reflect 10-20% of your system's cost. |
"Finally, keep in mind that an ideal component power supply design, were there such a thing, would have zero sensitivity to reasonable variations in the characteristics of the incoming AC, and would feed zero noise back into the AC line. Perhaps it is too much to expect, but it seems to me that a more expensive component design should approach that ideal more closely than a less expensive component that performs a similar function. And therefore it should be less in need, not more in need, of the benefits that an expensive cord might provide."
I know that's true from experience. A few years ago I bought a cheap Sony DVD/SACD player to try SACD. After a few days of having it in my system, I came to the conclusion that my system didn't sound right. Honestly, I didn't know what the cause of the problem was. As I was trying some different things, I unplugged the Sony and everything went back to normal. You wouldn't think that type of thing would make such a big difference. |
Brownsfan's comment +1.
The importance of those benefits of upgraded power cords that are technically explainable (low resistance, good shielding against both noise pickup and noise radiation, noise cancelling geometry, perhaps minimization of resistance to abrupt changes in demand for current) are clearly dependent on the designs of the particular components in the system. Many are also dependent on the AC line voltage and AC noise conditions at the particular location.
Also, most or all of those particular benefits are readily obtainable at prices that are relatively low by audiophile standards, as well as at higher prices.
And to the extent that power cord upgrades may provide benefits that are speculative and/or not technically explainable, what basis is there to assume that what is being paid for in the upper parts of the price spectrum is not overkill, that provides no benefit relative to lower priced alternatives?
Finally, keep in mind that an ideal component power supply design, were there such a thing, would have zero sensitivity to reasonable variations in the characteristics of the incoming AC, and would feed zero noise back into the AC line. Perhaps it is too much to expect, but it seems to me that a more expensive component design should approach that ideal more closely than a less expensive component that performs a similar function. And therefore it should be less in need, not more in need, of the benefits that an expensive cord might provide.
IMO. Regards,
-- Al |
My practice with things like power cords that are difficult to audition is to get a general concensus from users and reviews, and buy the best one from that group that you can afford. In my case, it was Pangea. There Elizabeth...I said it! |
Sweet spot is whatever VH or Pangea is priced at your comfort level.
You won't feel bad with a cheap ZU Birth either. |
I would think it has a bit to do with the price/value of the connected equipment.
A $20,000 amplifier might be well off with a pricier powercord than a $1,000 amplifier.
Personally I would stick to a simple percentage for wires. 10% is a nice number. And is what i have (considering all equipment costs compared to all wire costs excluding power conditioners.. With conditioners my cost hits 15% of system cost.
And for those screaming i am a shill for a particular powercord... note I never mentioned it even once here.. When I certainly could have. |
The higher the price, the sweeter it is for the seller. The lower the price, the sweeter it is for the buyer. |
I have also found that used power cords, especially "last years model", hold their value extremely well, maybe better than any other cable or component. I have never compared an over $1000 cord but like many that list for $600 - $800 and often sell used for less than half of list |
The problem with this question is that sometimes a $500 PC is twice as good as a $1000.00 one. I find that VH Audio AirSines are hard to beat in their price range, but they are not the right PC for every component. Buying used or going the Cable Company route can make a lot of sense, unless you find folks that have found a really good PC with your particular components. |
I completely agree with you, where would you say the price point representing the best value lies |
$1000 is not twice as good as $500 no matter what vice you are talking about, power cords, cables, cartridges, amps, preamps, speakers, watches, wine, scotch, golf clubs, etc., etc.
The only time $1000 is twice as good as $500 is in cash form. ;) |
I guess everyone is different depending on their system and hearing. For me personally my sweet spot is around $1000 retail which equates to about $500 used. |
