It is not the "perfect" solution, but it works well.
What would be the perfect solution? What is it that you are looking for? |
A little update: Einstein The tube mk 2 continues to do a good job, with no operational problems, including the NOS tubes, over four years - very good. Synnergy with the Aesthetix on the one hand and the MA-1s on the other hand. It is not the "perfect" solution, but it works well.
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Thanks Audiolabyrinth, and to Jafox, Charles1dad, Albertporter and all others also who helped me improve my preamp in this thread - merry Christmas and a happy New Year to you all! |
Hi O_holter, great read on your follow up post, you know I followed this thread a while back, good to see you ole chap. |
An update:
Over the past months, partly due to tube advice given in this thread, I have been enjoying my Einstein The Tube Mk2 preamplifier a lot. Or more precisely, I don't feel I have a preamp problem anymore, and don't worry about it. It fills its role fine.
It does have a bit of solid state sound I suspect, but I am not much bothered by it, after the NOS tube upgrades (described above), and its assertiveness fits in nicely with the rest of my system and fairly large room.
A special treat, for me, is the ability to mix it in optimally. Since I have volume on the Aesthetix Io phono preamp too, I can mix and match. The sound is fatter and more organic with the Io taking most of the amplification load, and leaner and more precise with the Einstein taking most. A nice dialogue indeed. I like to have the Io volume at three o'clock and the Einstein at twelve or one o'clock, to get the best sound. This preamp is certainly delivering, and even if it was expensive, I got it more reasonably second hand, and am glad I bought it.
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Yes (we can also use them in our preamps). One of the driver tubes has a little more voltage on it, in your case the one that is at the edge of the chassis facing the power tubes. That one has to have either a -GTA or -GTB suffix if you use NOS; you can also use the Chinese tubes we use and most of the Russians too (although most of them do not hold up well).
It seems that a number of the boutique tubes don't have the higher voltage rating, so you can use them in all of the locations in our equipment except the one described. |
Thanks Atmasphere! So these would do a good job as driver tubes in the MA-1s? |
^^ Some of the new 6SN7s go for $200-$300/pair or more, while the garden variety of newly manufactured tubes are $35 apiece or less.
Some examples are Sophia, Psvane and TJ Music. All have some form of a 6SN7 or VT-231 available and all have gotten excellent comments. |
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Yes, but sadly I can't use this any where in my system. 8-( Yes, you would have to use a preamp that uses 6SN7s... FWIW the new boutique 6SN7s that have been showing up have been getting rave reviews by our customers. |
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what would be a good improvement tube roll replacement for a recitifier 6z4 power supply tube? |
The 6SN7 is an even better tube than the 12BH7 FWIWÂ… Yes, but sadly I can't use this any where in my system. 8-( |
The 6SN7 is an even better tube than the 12BH7 FWIW... |
All - it is the RCA 12 BH7 red label which is the only 12BH7 tube I have experience with. I have routinely bought pairs of this tube for $40 or so which is a lot less than the insane prices for the great 6922 tubes that the RCA replaced in the Aria line stage. And yes, the Aria supports the 6v 6922 or the 12v 12au7 family with a flip of a switch. Gotta love it as the 12v tubes here take the unit to a whole new level even vs. the coveted Amperex 6922 pinched waist which now resides in the phono stage.
For you IO guys, if you want a little more treble extension, try just a single pair of Brimar 4004, a 12ax7 variant, in the last stage. I used Tele 12ax7's throughout in the IO but one pair of Brimars here added some upper freq extension that was quite nice. |
i agree the STEALTH DREAM is better than the DOMINUS,
HI Asa,the RCA 12BBH7 red label,the getter is D or O getter?thanks,i will try later if i can found |
Damn Asa, that was one of the most informative post I was looking for here, Dude, Thankyou! |
Jafox, I am not sure Dream State is still around. I tried contacting them awhile back, and I can no longer find a website for them. I guess Cable Company still carries them so??? Samtse, Jafox and I both owned the Stealth Dreams before we discovered Dream State. They Stealth are excellent cords, bettered on by Dream State in my experience. |
On the 12BH7s, 1950's Brimars are recognized as the best, maybe followed by RCA white label 1950s D-getters...but I have both and still find the RCA red label, grey plates to be best. All, of course, is contextual (my relative context being a AirTight 300B 8W SET with WE300Bs & original Genalex Gold Lion B749s & 1940 black plate JAN RCA 5U4 rectifier), but here the RCA red label keeps winning....
The bonus? NOS RCA 12BH7 red labels in true matched pairs are pretty cheap, say $125/pr at most for good labels.
With that said, I'd still go for the MP-1...very spacious, very involving. |
Jafox, my friend member name misternice just bought few stealth v-12 dream power cables, he lives in newzealand and austalia, He bought them used, I do not know how he did that, stealth just introduced the v-12 power cord?, anyway, he likes them alot, suppose to give me a run down of the sound when he comes back from vacation, cheers. |
I have not auditioned or changed cables in 5 years. The system just sounds too good to have any desire to play the cables game any time soon.
For awhile I had all purist dominus cabling with the Aesthetix Io/Callisto, CAT amps and Manley DAC. I did have Joe Kubaka visit my home and fully install the KS emotion cables. This sounded wonderful but I ultimately prefer the Dominus overall even though i'd say the KS was the more "neutral" product line.
A year or so later, l I tried the mid level Stealth M5000 PC and it beat the Dominus at it's own game of 3D but with more bass foundation. From here the curiosity to try the Stealth Dream came and this PC brought on further refinements of tonal coherency. Little by little each Dominus cable was replaced with Dream PCs, the Indra Ic or Jade hybrid IC. I got a friend to try the Dream and he liked it but he told me to try the Dream State PCs. We swapped and shared each of these with each other and found that after a few months of playing, the dream state was unbeatable. They were very similar but the dream state, especially the Dream Catcher model, had phenomenal dynamic contrasts while giving up nothing in tonal coherency and 3D.
I use the Dream Catcher on the cat amps, the Running Spring Haley conditioner, Aria preamp and Lampizator DAC. The DS Veridical PC is for digital gear, but for beefy tube dacs, I prefer the Dream Catcher. But the Veridical worked best with the APL Denon player.
The DS Lucid Dream PC is the model targeted for amps but this cable was too colored for me every place I tried it except ironically for the Sound Lab speakers where it was perfect so I bought another for the other speaker. I was very surprised that a PC could have an effect here but it was only after all the other cable refinements in the system had taken place. |
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Hi JAFAX,
i think is depend on what you want or is it match your system,and i think most audiophile would not use same BRAND power cord,so it's like mix and match.at last the STEALTH DREAM,I heard one time,it's really amazing, |
Jafox, what do you use for power cords, and on what?, Thanks for all you help on this thread. |
No No No on the Dominus with Aesthetix products. The Dominus B or C has the same faults as the Aesthetix products, i.e., over exaggeration of the middle octaves and suffering of detail at the frequency extremes. The Stealth Dream or Dream State power cords are vastly superior in tonally coherency here. Been there done this, but have since moved on. |
i heard the Octave Jubilee two times,but not my cup of tea,if you want buy the Jubilee,please check the Jubilee is it true balance design because your IO phono is true balance.
last if you want change power cord for IO,you can consider PAD Dominus,that'S i try sucess to match my pervious pre(AESTHETIX CALLISTO SIG)(just my two cent) |
Hi O Holter,you mean contact Einstein for make sure the 12BH7 can instead 12AU7 ??
i didn't modify.i also use the original power cord.
before i use the original 12au7 tube,i found the sound is very clean but not enough PURE,don't you think that??after change to the BRIMAR 12BH7,I found the sound really great,the blackground is really black,more bass and heard more hidden detail .......but for me the important things is PURE. |
yes that is correct O_holter, ok, That was the plan, I will waite untill the whole system is done with break-in, then do tweek up grades. |
Audiolabyrinth - as i understand you are running a Vincent player direct to a recent version Krell 700, to quite sensitive Jbl speakers. Sounds promising and I know that new caps can take 300+ hours break-in time (happened with the Io Eclipse upgrade). So if it was me I would check with Vincent and try a bit tube change anyway, and not be too concerned if the sound was still a bit hard. Give it a chance to mellow. |
Audioquest4life - great, thanks! I can well imagine that the Io sounds superlative into the Octave Jubilee and then into Macintosh 2301. You mention tube experiments - in the Jubilee, or in the Io?'I have generally ended up with Telefunken in the Io although Rca etc can also sound good. Have you tried feet, cables or other tweaks to get the best from the Io? |
Samtse - great, but check with Einstein. I didnt get a no but not a clear yes either. Have you done other mods with this pre? How do you like the sound? |
Before we go in a 12bh7 march, perhaps make sure the pre or cd or amp (etc) can take it? Cf warning note from Atmasphere, above. I take the chance, in the Einstein pre and the Ming Da amp, since it sounds good and no ill effects so far. I wonder, even if a 12au7 socket can take a 12bh7 tube, should it be tuned to get the best from this tube. |
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Gosh, had I know the RCA 12BH7 was such a runaway hit here, I would have charged for tickets. |
O_holter,
Yes, I am using the Aesthetix IO Signature analog source with the Octave Jubilee along with the Mcintosh MVP 891 3D Blu Ray SACD player for digital. The amps are Mcintosh MC2301 and work beautifully with this combination.
I have experimented with ECC82 Siemens, RFT, RCA, Telefunken, and Jan-Phillips with the Jubilee and find them all pretty good, with the RFT and Siemens having a slightly better top end and midrange compared to the others. The Jubilee requires matched tubes within 5% tolerance of each other to function correctly. When I tested the Einstein years ago, it also used Siemens tubes, if I recall correctly. |
0_holter, Hi, Great to see you, My interest in the tubes is for my cd player which drives my amp directly to good effect, my amp is 100kilo ohms, very good match for driving an amp with this vincent tube digital player, and yes, speaker sensativity will have alot to do with it, I have incredible full sound on lowest volume, the krell is 3.58 volts to drive to full power, the vincent puts out 2.5 volts max, so I never over drive the amp, and as far as sound, I am looseing nothing, I have used the vincent on head phones set to full out put, I cannot hear a difference at all useing the volume control on the player running thru the entire system, and my speakers are a modest 91 sensativity, would love to have 103 sensativity like I did in the late 90s on a Krell FPB 200, that, my friend was awsome!, so basically, you are saying I need to check to see if I can even run the RCA 12bh7 in place of the 12au7 tube, i'm sure I do not have a bias control for me to set in a cd player, a technician could, I do not know enough about being tech savy to do this myself, Did you use telefunken tubes in place of the 12ax7 tubes?, if so, How did that work out?, did you try the telefunken 12ax7 tube? |
Hi,i found this thread recently,i'm the Einstein the Tube lll pre user too,after read the thread,i make a phone call to the tube shop,and ask for RCA 12BH7,and the sales told me they have,and they said you can also try BRIMAR 12BH7,they said 12BH7,BRIMAR is the best one,so i bought the BRIMAR 12BH7 D getter ,after replace the 12au7,i listening carefully a few hours,so now i am very satisfy the 12BH7,I think i so lucky to find this thread,thanks everybody |
Audiolab - Krell and speaker sensitivity - I dont know. Check it.
What I know is, I had 84db sensitive Dynaudio Consequence speakers, hard to drive, and had to go too loud to get the best sound (class A I think, the amp got ver hot). The Stereophile review was clear. You have to get it to run in pure class A, to get the best sound. |
Hi I just put two of my three extra Rca 12bh7 tubes into the Ming Da Mc-34a amp here at my cottage. Sound good here also, and since i could set the bias to the same 0.43v level I thought ok lets try. I have no idea perhaps bias should be changed(if possible, like here), switching from 12au7 to 12bh7. |
On holiday now - more later... |
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O_holter, my speakers are 91 sensativity, 6 ohm that dips lower while playing music, 30hz to 27 khz cross over 900 hz 4 way design with sloped baffle bi-amp speakers, The JBL L-7 speakers with Tara Omega Jumpers with still points footers, then rotated out with polycrystal footers, the krell sounds even better at lowest volume, I suppose these improved caps do the trick, that was the first think I noticed when first playing this new amp, and thankyou for the congrats, it's been a long hard road to get to this point, I was without my system for a year, tell me more feedback on the tubes when you get a chance, cheers. |
Thanks and congrats with the Krell! In my system, I wish the FPB600 had changed to class A sooner (with less volume) but that may have been fixed in your model, or perhaps not a problem with your speakers (or perhaps - no neighbours).. |
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O_holter, wow!, sorry, I just caught up on this thread, I have been looking into many interest for my system, since I have only been building it for two years, at the cost of admission, this takes alot of time to obtain each piece, Very funny you mentioned a Krell FPB 600, well, you guessed close, I have a Brand New Modded Krell FPB 700cx amp that I am currently burning in, the good folks their at krell inserted all new 2014 improved caps that was not available in 2005 in this amp, and renewed the cosmetics as well, Oh yea, this thing gets HOT!, I enjoy vintage Krell Like this, yes, it does sound different than before, It has an uncanny way with treble, grainless, no brittleness at all!, mid-range is improved, of course the bass needed nothing to improve, however,LOL!, I only have 85 hours out of 500 of burn-in, sorry, let's talk tubes, tube products is my preference in front of this krell, I also agree, you should do long listening to be sure of your impressions, I admit, I have enjoyed following your tube journey, It apears that the RCA 12BH7 is of interest to me now, my question, to ever can help us here, How many variates does this tube come in?, you mentioned black plates version, Is there others? cheers to you O_holter for your contribution here. |
I think Atmasphere, above, gave a nod to the 12bh7 as the better sounding tube, and that my listening notes say the same. |
Hi Jafox - yes, I am verifying the 'clarity' that you spoke about. My impression is that everything becomes a bit larger. So even if a 12au7 may sound prettier etc it does not reach the same level.
Many thanks for further upgrade advice.
I already run a JPS Superconductor 3 from the Io to the Einstein, and a JPS Superconductor FX from the Einstein to the MA-1 amps. The SC3 is clearly the best cable of these two. Both cables are XLR / balanced, and according to some tests, balanced cable into amps don't make a big difference. It may be, better cables can be found, in the Einstein context, my impression is, these do OK.
I use the stock Einstein power cable. If I get a new one, it will need to have an angled plug, fitting the bottom of the preamp (or i must change to the stock plug myself).
I have a dedicated line for my system, have not noted big benefits from a power conditioner - don't know if the Einstein would like it. For now it is plugged into a PS Audio Quintet, that goes into the wall. I have not experimented with power cables so far. |
Trying to sum up:
Audiolabyrinth: "It's not about how much a componet cost, It's what the componet does!"
Agree, well said! It is shown in this thread also. By changing a tube, not so expensive, I've made an expensive tube preamp sound better.
Charles1dad: "Reading what you've written it just seemed as though the Io was omitting important characteristics that the Einstein revealed(and this got your attention)."
Plus one for the best attention in the thread - and willingnesss to deliver a different opinion.
It got me thinking. Perhaps I overrate my Aesthetix Io, since I have not compared much. Although from what I have heard, I like what I have. It is not about "resolution" in the narrow sense, but musicality in a wide sense. For me, the Eclipse version needed 300 or more hours break-in. But from there, it was no comparison with the Mk2 that I had before (never tried the signature version). I did not look back. |
What I find interesting about tube rolling is that the effect, in my experience, is often bigger than the effects of changing power cords, feet etc. Yes yes yes yes yes! So happy you like the RCA 12H7. It is a special tube. I never heard a tele 12au7. But I tried many other 12au7's and 7602 and the RCA is the king for me. Once you get your system tuned with tube rolling, then cable differences start to make a big difference. Start with IC from pre to amp, then put in a nice conditioner like the Running Springs. And then a top power cord into that. Then power cords for preamp and and IC from sources to pre. Finish with power cords to amp and finally speaker cables. This is the order for which things made the most difference as I did all the updates. |
As I am testing I am rediscovering vinyl - always a good sign - and now, George Harrison: Learning how to love you, from Thirtythree 1/3 (Dark horse K56319). How come this has been overlooked, while Something is regarded among the world's best pop songs ever? (perhaps because the rest of the LP is often marred by me-too disco arrangements?) It is not as strong as a song, but it is in the same mould, carrying it further, and sounds absolutely marvellous. |
What I find interesting about tube rolling is that the effect, in my experience, is often bigger than the effects of changing power cords, feet etc. At least it seems so in this case. I would say that the effects of changing the 12au7 tube in the Einstein are clear, like lifting the component half a class higher. "A-" to "A" in Stereophile (but I hate "classes" and all this easy divisioning). I know I can help with a better power cord (or damping etc) also, but it is usually smaller increments. It is somewhat paradoxical that an already "engaging" component sounds even better with a "bigger-sounding" tube, but it seems to be the case. Especially at moderate-to-high volumes. |
Another little test. After two days with the Telefunken 12au7, I switched to the RCA 12bh7 that measured best of the three I got recently. The effect was much like the first 12bh7 I tried (replacing CBS Hytron). The soundstage seemed a bit bigger and closer. More bass. I do like the Telefunken sound, but it feels more closed in. Too early to say since it needs more break-in. Also I should try the Hytron again. It seems like a mid-alternative between the more closed-in but detailed Telefunken and the bigger sound of the 12bh7. But if I had to grab just one tube and be done with it, it would be the 12bh7. |
O_holter,
You're absolutely right! As my system has evolved over time, the more immersed in the sheer joy of music I became. The hifi/audiophile concerns withered significantly. That's why I feel that you're doing it right with your recent choices. Superior components will undoubtedly "connect" you emotionally towards the pure pleasure of the music you love.
Charles, |
Thanks! My thought also. I have become more concerned with the music lately. I think its a sign that the preamp is doing its job. |
