My Dunlavy V's with Classe electronics does great job on hip-hop music or ANY kind of music. I listened to all kinds of music. Classical or Jazz one session, Electronica or rock on other and always hip-hop when I want to let loose. Rap music HAS high fidelity elements. Music! All music has high fidelity elements-as lon as there is sytem that reproduces faithfully. Be it violin, vocal, cymbals or electronic music. Rap music has a bad RAP from typical jazz/classic/old classic rock audiophiles. Wake and smell coffee! Why do you think the top ten songs are mostly populated with Rap Artists. RAP IS HERE TO STAY. I always listened to rap/electronica in my car equipped with Pioneer premier front end and PPI amps, generating very high-endish sound.( No boom to speak of). When the mood strikes, Iistened to, for example, any good Mapleshade CDs. Tru, Like you said a great system will make any music sound the way it was meant to be: MUSICAL |
Sean, your post summarizes many excellent points including the need to be honest in order to have a discussion.
It also reminds me of a point I wanted to make. Many people out there have minimal exposure to some genres of music be it upbringing (culture), location (city or farm) or the all important resource- interaction with friends who are music lovers. If you rely on exposure to music from the popular media (or hifi shops) you are likely to have opinions like Sean stated:
"As to why people would have the ideas that they do about "rap", "hip-hop", etc..., take a look around. Most of the time that you hear this music or see the participants, the sound is HORRIBLE while the listeners and creators try to portray themselves as being "ghetto gangsters"."
Sean you need to look around a bit more.
It may be true that lots of rap is listened to on "Big woofers in untuned boxes and Piezo tweeters." So is a lot of classic rock. This may represent exactly what the listener wants out of the music or what they can afford to spend.
I am lucky to be involved with a group of people across the US who post music to a private server along with a brief description of the album. Every week I get an email from the system administrator listing the new music posted that week. This is what the internet is all about! It has increased my exposure to rare recordings, different styles of music new and old. A great example of a new way to get exposed to music without listening to commercial radio or music television. There are probably a bunch of Audiogoners who do this too.
MP3 isn't hifi but the recordings I enjoy are eventually purchased in the CD or vinyl formats and enjoyed on that other thing I spend too much time sitting in front of. |
audiogon did not print my last reply, so you know what they say, if you dont have anything nice to say . anyway i like the old sugar hill gang, whoever did planet rock. and someother older rap, but i would not play it on a high end system. i have a system in my theater with a jbl pro 4719 sub with a krell strapped down . i am using jbl pro horns with micrex tubes on top. that would be good for your rap. i dont know why you would listen to any of that newer trash . sugar hill gang had something to say. what do rappers have to say today. nothing i want to hear. anyway it is a free country, good luck in your quest. by the way sean ; well put. |
Karl, most older "classic rock" ( Beatles, Stones, Who, etc ) was done in a time period when the majority of speakers were sealed. For instance, look at AR, KLH, Advent, Jensen, etc... These were all major forces in the industry back then. As such, box tuning is FAR less critical. It is almost hard to make a sealed and stuffed box sound "boomy". Vented / augmented boxes were really just making headway into the mainstream back then. With the advent of Thiel / Smalle parameters, they took off rather rapidly. None the less, companies were not TRYING to produce high Q designs that created huge undamped bass peaks or treble response that made your ears bleed at thirty paces. Yet, there is a HUGE market that WANTS that type of "sound" today and it is primarily for the hip-hop / rap crowd. With that in mind, poor designs of any type are JUNK, regardless of what type of music you're listening to.
Take into account that i am also talking about the AVERAGE "fan" of a specific genre of music. After all, when you think of a specific group of people or products, you typically look at what the "average" represents or how it is viewed by the masses. While it is true that there are extremes or fringe elements to EVERY group, those ARE the extremes and are less likely to be recognized or accounted for. That puts "audiophile hip-hoppers" in the minority and basically out of the picture. The "average" hip-hopper does not seek out "audiophile" grade equipment or sonic characteristics. If they did, "rap" and "hip hop" would NOT have the image that they do. Instead, the "average" fan strives for maximum "thud", poor tonal balance, sizzling high end, etc... Someone that is a rap / hip hop fan that does not go that route is ATYPICAL and therefore not included in the generalized comments that i made.
For the record, i live next to a village that had the lowest annual income per person in the United States. I get to see the REAL "ghetto gangsters", "rappers" and "hip-hoppers" EVERY single day as i drive to work. I did not grow up on a farm or live with my head stuck in a hole in the ground. The "exciting" things that are glorified in those "songs" are a REAL way of life for some of these "Thugz for Life". Peddling dope on street corners, threatening neighbors with death if they call the police, shooting some "ho" that smoked your last rock or drank your last "40" are REAL things there. As such, i can't condone that type of behaviour and don't want to glorify such things. Nor will i support it financially.
If you think my views are tainted by living near the above situation, think again. I live in the suburbs. I can drive 20 minutes into Chicago or 20 minutes out to cornfields. I would consider that a pretty "well rounded" perspective of both "city" and "country" living.
To each their own.... Sean
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That puts "audiophile hip-hoppers" in the minority
And audiophile jazz cats, and audiophile funkaholics, and audiophile classic rockers, and audiophile spacerockonauts, and audiophile electronics whizes, probably even audiophile classical connoisseurs. As for the rest, I'm sure your East Egg perspective is charming, but to judge an entire genre of music based on anecdotal evidence of mass behavior is at best irresponsible. |
If the question is real and not just bait (haven't had time to read the responces) try a pair of EV s-15 three way. there is a high end model and the basic. Use them for mids and highs along with subs for pa mains and they stomp. don't need the subs for home use....or do you. |
Sean and Raguirre. Well said.
Seek out good music, there is some in every genre even if its not coming at you loudly as a car rolls down the street.. It's that same insane "ghetto" music that created Louis Armstrong and Kraftwerk.
Audiogon is a fringe group of people. Audiophile= Fringe. Try explaining a 500$ interconect to a non-audiophile. Further subspecializing... Audiophiles with web access and interest = Audiogoner. All with a wide diversity of opinions about music. Amazing.
Try Vandersteen's. |
Once again I want to thank you for all of the responses. I really have enjoyed reading them, and they really helped. Now it is off to audition some speakers |
Raguirre, you are absolutely right. "Audiophiles" are not "normal" or "average" in any category of music involvement. We are a diverse group like any other group. That means good, bad and indifferent, fringe and mainstream.
None the less, when someone is "pigeon-holed" as being an audiophile, a certain idea is struck in the observer's mind about that person and what they are like. Over-spending, over-critical, gear-obsessed, etc... are generalizations that come to mind. This does not fit ALL "audiophiles", but it may not be far off ON THE AVERAGE.
So it is for ANY "generalization". That is why "generalizations" are commonly accepted. There is more than just a grain of truth to be found in the statement, so it becomes socially accepted as being "true". It is commonly accepted by those that don't know better or lack exposure / first hand knowledge about the subject. Anyone that is intimately familiar with the subject can PROBABLY shed light on it, typically dispelling most of the assumptions. This does NOT level out how the AVERAGE person perceives the situation though. They simply lack the intimate knowledge to know any better or fully understand the situation and diversity involved.
Just as there are talented rappers / hip-hopper's, musicians that play "metal", etc..., they are often overlooked due to being "categorized". That does NOT mean that they are NOT part of that specific sub-culture or genre of music AND bring the associated "baggage" along with them. While it may be "dangerous" or not "politically correct" to label people / groups as a whole, we all have to prove ourselves as individuals before anyone is going to take notice of us. As such, many hardcore rappers / hip-hoppers that have stood out from the crowd have done so by promoting less than "socially acceptable" points of view or mannerisms. This has only further reinforced the "thug mentality" of rappers / hip-hoppers as a whole.
As an example, take a look at Public Enemy for their stance on racism, NWA's ( Niggers With Attitudes ) racial and "thug" commentaries, Ice T's "cop killer" anthem, etc.. All famous groups that became famous over "negativity" and "thug mentality". Due to this fame and exposure, the AVERAGE media educated person, who lacks exposure to other talented artists with differing points of view, tends to view ALL rappers and hip-hoppers as being "thugs". These groups WERE recognized as "stand-outs" from the crowd i.e. "individuals" but not for "positive" reasons. The "hollywood rappers" ( Will Smith, etc..) are a slightly different story, as they have used their skills to further their careers and NOT remain part of the sub-culture that they started off with.
Keep in mind that the Beatles and Stones were also percieved as "thugs". That's why "rock" music and its' performers received the "labels" that they did back then. That is why i made the comments pertaining to this being a situation that will change from generation to generation. It is the same shoe, just a different foot. Sean
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Sean, you have posted several times at length on this topic. While I am in total agreement with your observations about the generational aspects of what is music, I disagree with your characterization of the people who produce and listen to rap music. You call them "ghetto gangsters". It is well known that the majority of buyers for rap are white, non-urban teenagers. Wal-Mart is the biggest seller of rap. The thug-life image of rappers is in some cases absolutely correct, but for the majority, or the average rapper, are we so unsophisticated as not be able to distinguish between the marketing image and the real person? For instance, do you really think Sly Stallone is "Rambo"? The buying public demands that their recording artist "keep it real" and ambitious, smart young black males are only too willing to oblige. Is this a modern form of the black-faced minstrel? Maybe, but a more interesting question is why does American society want to see young black men as thugs? Sean, you claim to see urban reality as you drive through low income areas on your way to work. What you see is real, but it's only a limited view of a very complex picture. You see the boyz on the corner, but do you also see the men taking public transportation to their factory jobs?
I was living in NYC when rap music first started to gain national exposure. At the time, it was a joyous music filled with the positive vitality of the city. It was young people (primarily men) talking loud and being bold as only young men can. The Sugar Hill Gang would go up against the Furious Five to see who had the best rhymes. There was a simplicity and earnestness about the music that reminded me off Chuck Berry/Buddy Holly and other early rockers. But around '81/'82 along came crack cocaine and everything changed.
Rap music is the dominate music genre of the past 20 years. It's rhythms and rhymes have diffused throughout American culture. As with any trend, it has positive and negative aspects. If you're seriously interested in reading a comprehensive overview of rap/hip-hop, I would suggest Nelson George's "HipHop America" (Penguin Books).
BTW, rap has an intimate connection for vinyl audiophiles. During the darkest days of analog (late 80s, early 90s) when it appeared that the whole world was going CD, it was 12" rap/hip-hop/dance music that was the major force in keeping vinyl alive in America. |
As to my comments about "ghetto gangsters", some truly are and some aspire to that position.
Most buyers of rap / hip-hop are "wannabe's" and have no idea about the economic / social situations that many of these performers sing about / have to deal with. I think that Jello Biafra / Dead Kennedy's summed up a similar situation quite well in a tune called "Holiday in Cambodia". When these "wannabe's" get a taste of the REALITY that these people have gone through / still go through, they no longer "pretend" to live or "envy" that lifestyle.
As to "promoting an image" and only the gullible believing it, talk to Tupac about that. He may have been the best at "playing" the part. At least, i think so... Sean
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I also like many types of music. I have a very good HiFi system on which I enjoy my favorite recordings. I listen to Metallica, Kid Rock, Motown, 50's Frank Sinatra, Maria Callas, Chili Peppers, R&B and funk, Dylan, and many other artists and types of music. It depends on the mood I'm in.
Somebody once said that there are only two types of music, good and bad. It is up to each of us to decide. Unless the Taliban or some other fundamentalist sect take over the country you are free to listen to what you want. Some people like steak, some people prefer salad. Which is "correct"?
I grew up in the 60's. We heard the all the same complaints. "It's noise, he can't sing, they can't play, it's not "real" music etc." Now of course that rock/pop music is considered great.
If the music lasts long enough or you die young (Hendrix, Lennon, Marvin Gaye, Joplin, Cobain) society looks back and says how great you were. Remember Van Gogh never sold a painting in his lifetime. Jackson Pollack was called "Jack the Dripper", now he's considered by many America's greatest 20th century painter. Ever read old reviews of John Coltrane's playing with Miles in Down Beat magazine? Everybody else in Miles Davis's group was great but Coltrane, "why does he always play all those wrong notes?"!
When Hendrix was playing in the late 60's all you'd ever read was how he was a big showman and sex symbol, very little was ever said about his music. John Lennon, he was considered mostly a confused if not well meaning dupe of Yoko Ono. Politically naive and should have stayed with the Beatles. Etc. etc.
When you get older, I'm 49, you'll see that many things in life repeat over and over.
Now about the audio equipment to play hip-hop, rap.
You want a good clean powerful system that reproduces the full audio range. Bottom to top.
For speakers. Either you need to buy full range large speakers or a good subwoofer such as a Rel or Hsu Research with good speakers that reproduce the rest of the frequecy range without coloration. I would look to Neil Grader's writtings in The Absolute Sound magazine for further ideas about components and system that play a wide variety of music as he is someone who listens to many types of music (mostly pop and rock along with jazz and classical). Many other audio reviewers listen only to classical and vocal works. Systems that my sound great reproducing an orchestra or jazz group are not going to be optimized for Dr Dre productions or Rage Against The Machine for that matter.
Good luck. Happy listening!
HowardC |
Sean - perhaps I misunderstood your earlier posts, and I thank you for continuing to clarify. It seems as though you do recognize that the generalization of modern hip hop artists is a convenience and largely a product of marketing hype and an increasingly disillusioned youth culture. More, it sees like you agree with the notion that the form isn't inherently unlistenable, but perhaps it's most well known ambassadors are. These were really the points I wanted to make. To me, music has always been a gateway into new cultures and ideas. As such, what I listen to tends to range from European electronic exotica like Mouse on Mars to the excellent songsmithing of Leadbelly. One thing that I have observed is that there are plenty of bad music and plenty of bad music fans in every genre. And that's fine, but if you really want to hear what any music type has to offer you must be willing to wade through the crap (or better yet, find a reliable guide who's already familiar with the form). To dismiss anything before really giving it a shot is just cheating yourself. |
Can anyone answer this question: Why I was the only one who brought a 'mundane' recording to the Frank Van Alstine Show at the Chicago Audio Society meeting? Everybody else played 'audiophile grade' recordings...
The music was from "Lo mato si no compra este disco." (I kill him if you don't buy this record.) Album by Willie Colon/Hector Lavoe--Caribbean gangsta music from the 70's. I happened to play an instrumental fusion piece that Van Alstine stopped after about two minutes! This recording, nonetheless, is my reference recording to test system performance. Lots of trombones, fast percussion, bass and a world class singer. I used it recently to test and set up some Bob Regal feet Deano sent me to try on my 'new' Melos SHA-3 preamp. I described the improvements to him and emailed me that I was hearing right. That I had entered 'Audio Nirvana'. So much for a non audiophile recording of gangsta music.
Aguirre, you're right on the money. I've always said that most music in all genres is crap. That one needs to weed out this crap to get to the real good stuff; preferably to find a guide to point out what to buy.
In conclusion, I think being an audiophile gets a bad rap because it is associated with certain attitudes, behaviors and types of people. Just recently I went to an 'upscale' high end store in downtown Chicago to buy a piece. What a bunch of snobs! Did they think they were impressing me? I just wanted to get out of there fast! I heard comments like: "To get a good preamp you have to spend at least five thousand dollars." Is this going to attract people to audio? Hey, they want you to quit before you even start...or at least humilliate you before you move on. Like forcing me to demo the piece I wanted with some Tchaikovsky. Hey, I've sold audio at two stores: you ALWAYS ask the customer what he/she wants to hear. What was the point of this geek trying to force me to hear Tchaikovsky? Educate me, perhaps? What a shame... |
It reminds me of a funny but typical situation I encountered several years ago.I was at a used hi-end audio store,and the owner used to come across some really exotic audio gear.Any way he also sold used CDs and i stumbled on to a LIAS LISa and the CULT GANG.I really wanted to hear this one cut titled Lost in Emotion,and the owner looked at me like i was nuts.I did remind him that I was a customer who had bought a pre amp from him,anyway he put the cut on i listen to it and it was a full tube setup,AUDIO RESEARCH,sounded real tight,he was going nuts but then he cut it off when the cut was done and put on classical and said this is what high end is for.I then told him that he was an idiot,because not all audiofiles listen to only classical and to me it's boring.We had a exchange of words and I pretty much told him that I will never patronize his establishment again.Well eventually he went out of business because he was trying to get over on everybody and pretty much everybody got hip to his B.S.TRU I wish you well on your continued search and my stepson is a fan of your music.Even my wife likes your stuff too.I hope that you read my speaker choices for you too.Happy Holidays.Cheers |
some of these comments are making me sick. to generalize *any* kind of music is wrong, and i don't necessarily mean in an ethical sense either. i mean that if you make a statement about any genre of music, your statement has to be incorrect. styles of music vary within one genre so much that one statement CANNOT apply to the whole thing.
now, if you ask anybody who knows me, they will tell you that i am a seriously bad music snob. i'm not afraid to tell people why i think an artist is bad, but i will not trash an entire musical style.
there is indeed some rap/hip-hop that is overly manufactured andjust has high highs and lousy, boomy lows. but i don't understand how somebody could listen to an artist like tricky (especially 'maxinquaye') and make the same statement about it. it is extremely layered, well-engineered, crosses the full bandwidth spectrum, and is mostly mid-to-highs with a few very low baselines here and there.
anyway, that being said let me give my opinion on the original question.
in order for rap to sound good on a high end system, you are going to want a speaker with a very high quality woofer that will not color the sound and that will return to a resting position very quickly; quickly enough so that it has made a full movement cycle before it is activated again. of course all the normal speaker-qualities that are usually sought after should apply, but for r&b and hip hop, which does tend (not always) to have more low-end, it becomes very important for the proper reproduction of it. i've read some people
s recommendations and agree with gregm's recommendation of a pair of active ATC's. i recommend scm 50's or higher, as i believe them to have the best mid range and woofer drivers in the world. if you can find a dealer nearby, take a listen, i think they'll really help you enjoy the music.
and make sure you bring your own cd's and lp's when looking for speakers. and immediately leave any place that won't let you play what you want to when auditioning. you're the one buying the speakers. you're the one who will live with them, and you're the one paying their paycheck if you decide to buy. don't ever waste your time with snobby audio dealers. i changed hifi shops because of them.
anyhoo, just my opinion. hope it helps and good luck. |
I agree with Nilthepill. The Dunlavy V's will blow your windows out with rap music. Even though it's not my favorite listening music it sure gets a party going. Ever try to get crazy with Dave Brubeck or in this case Lawrence Welk. |
I'm not in your boat yet with regards to gear...bryston b-60 & B&W cdm1nt's and to be completely honest, although I dont listen to alot of rap music, I am a bug Beastie Boy fan and am amazed at the multiple layers of music and sampling in some of their songs that I had never heard before getting at least marginally decent stuff. Kid Rock sounds alot better too...it's not just the volume that matters. I think that it is pretty sad that many audiophiles were never able to broaden their musical horizons and stuck solely with classical and opera. I have a broad taste in music that I had gathered before i ever had a worthy system and can see the merits in any musical form. There is good rap and there is bad rap just as there is good opera and bad opera. I would go see Bizet's 'Pearl Fishers' 10 times in a row before I sit through Madam Butterfly again. Once again, that is my personal preference. Thank God we can have those. This thread also reminds me of something my Grandmother used to say..."If you dont have anything nice to say...." you know the rest. |
I second the WITT recommendation. They will work very well with hip-hop as well as any other music. They have sold on audiogon for around the same price as the cubs and IMO will outperform them overall especially with hip hop. |
Alhtough i personaly dilike rap music, as a young, 17 year old audiophile i do have non approved music types like punk and ska as well as more mainstream classic rock and jazz. I have a relativley high end system, rotel and adcom with old infinity speakers that i think sounds good on all types of music. The best way to choose speakers is to listen to everything you can afford and choose what you like, especially on higher end speakers there really isnt much better or worse its all about personal preferance so only you can decide. |
What do I listen for when buying gear?
When I listen to speakers I listen for balance. What I mean is how well the speaker excels at maintaining proper volume levels between low, mid and high frequencies. One of the things that turns me off from a speaker is if the bass is boomy and drowns out the midrange or the tweeter is to overpowering that you become agitated listening to the music. The frequencies should not be so overemphasized in any one range that the sound becomes unrealistic. If the speaker passes this test then I look for a good size soundstage. The sound should fill the room and not sound like it's coming from the speakers themselves, but from the area in between you and the speakers. It should sound convincing.... musical.
The benefits of getting better gear are subjective at best. Afterall, what is better gear? I have heard many people make comments or post reviews about how product x is ten times better then product y at a fourth of the price. I believe that the diminishing marginal returns you get in sound from extremely expensive gear is not worth the price you must pay. There are many reasonable priced pieces of equipment that will do the job as good or better and you don't have to take out a mortgage to buy them. Bottom line-- Don't assume that more expensive is better. It has to make sense.
It sounds to me that you have been somewhat unhappy with your present speakers or you wouldn't want to replace them. Maybe the speakers you currently have just don't sound right with rap music.
I am not a fan of rap music. I have heard it many times, but I just don't like it. I know that these rap music bands use expensive equipment to record their albums, but that makes absoultely no difference. Its the recording engineer that makes the difference. I find that rap music is deliberately recorded with overemphasis in the bass and mid frequencies. It is possible that your system is revealing these qualities within the music so ruthlessly that over time your brain becomes dissatisfied with the sound. (i.e out of balance.....not musical). Perhaps a less revealing speaker or one that is not so neutral may help.
Believe it or not the person who mentioned Cerwin Vega speakers is making a good recommendation for rap music.
You may also want to consider going with tube gear. It may take the edge off. I think tubes sound more musical. They create a convincing picture to me.
Whatever you decide to do I would re-think your next speaker purchase and maybe consider looking at your whole system with regard to the music you listen to. I would hate for you to go out and buy expensive speakers and still have the same problem. |
TRU,
I wanted to follow up with another speaker recommendation that slipped my mind. I would recommend you audition Klipsch speakers. They are great for this music as well as other types. I am not familiar with their newer models,but I have heard the Forte's and in my opinion these are excellent. See if you can find a used pair of Forte's on audiogon or audition some of their newer models. |
Speakers for base heavy music of any kind...try Polk SD-2A's.
Boom, Boom! |
You guys are pathetic snobs! (most, anyway). I'm a musician (percussion,piano), who's also a recording engineer, dj, and an audiophile. this is my first post here. I can't believe the bigotry and hypocrisy I've heard in the first 20 or so posts. I listen from everything from Mozart to Copeland to Dylan to Junior Brown to the Wu-Tang, A tribe called Quest, to Brubeck, to Marsalis, back to Tchikowsky... so whatever. My point is, why be a dick to the guy when he's asking for equipment advice? Most complaints I hear about audiophiles is that they're snobs.... Get Cerwin Vegas indeed. Why can't you all be open minded about this and perhaps learn something? Hip hop is the latest line in black music, which has brought us jazz, soul, R&B, and rock, to name a few genres... Miles Davis chose to do his last album in hip hop, and it's a masterpiece, like everything else he's done. (no offense to those who took him seriously!!! |
Tru, I was like you about ten years ago, so I shopped around and bought Vanersteen 2ci's. Today I listen to alot of techno and trance, still love my ten year old speakers. Happy shopping, Jason
P.S. You can find great price on used vaners, like 750.00 or less. |
Hey Tru,
I figure as more rap fans out there get good equipment, there'll be that much more pressure in the studios to record and mix well.. I think raps albums are already mixed and produced better then most of the current rock/pop crud. To me, music is about communication.. doesn't matter what the genre is.. it's the all about the artists and producers.. if they're creative and real, it comes through.
the B&W 801's will kick ass, but you'll need plenty of quality wattage to drive em. My next personal upgrade target is to Audio Physic Virgo or Avanti's, cause their imaging is so amazing,(they disappear,) they make me feel stoned even when I'm not.. |
I listen to lots of prog. rock and industrial music. It's not rap and it's not pop but I bet some people wouldn't get the high end rig for such music tastes. But still I've got a pretty good analogue... |
Amen Queg.Great music on good speakers is like a drug. And we'll all addicted! It doesn't matter what type you listen to, so long as you enjoy it.
Cheers and happy listening! |
Rap isn't music. It's a garbage symptomatic of a diseased society. It's a glorification of violence, mayhem and low-life ghetto lifestyle.
I tired of hearing the phrase "personal taste" pandered about to excuse every inferior or amoral thing. Is liking or preferring a Hostess grease-fried, chemical-ridden, fruit-barren individual pie over a home-baked, fresh fruit, quality ingredient made pie a matter of "personal taste?" No, it's the lack of ANY TASTE. So is it with rap music.
I live in a culturally-diverse & supposedly 'good' neighborhood of Chicago where we are terrorized hours of the day and night by low-life who drive around blasting rap music at earsplitting levels with 'bass' that rattles the windows of our house.
I am a professional musician and have an open mind to a lot of music, but I would never call such trash music. Even among that which I would consider 'music', there is music of more intrinsic artistic value, and that of less artistic value. To ascribe equal musical and artistic value to the works of the great composers of the classics to Snoop Dogy Dog, et al. is idiotic and perverse.
I applaud those who answered this thread with a "politically incorrect" response. At least some segment of this society is getting tired of everything being equal and acceptable.
TRU, do you subject your neighbors to listening to your rap music and invading their quiet enjoyment of their units or houses? I see this everywhere, and it is like a cancer. Everybody does whatever they want today, and f--- you if you don't like it. Law enforcement does nothing, and could care less, as could our politicians. As far as middle-class white kids are concerned, yes, they are listening to it. Why, because they are influenced by the low-life who write and push this garbage, and because it is multi-billion dollar cash cow for the self-serving, money-drunk & morally bankrupt recording industry. The fact that we now have audiophiles listening to rap music only shows how culturally bereft our society has become and how children are not introduced to in the education system or by their parents to the large body of great music that has been written. |
Kevziek, what you in milehigh club or something? I bet you are racist too. I think, it is (the rap music) where is coming from is the problem with the rap music bashers (mostly older, narrow minded, white trash who are still stuck in 50's and full of themselves). Hey I love classical too, and only wish I can play piano or viloin or something ( I have tried). But I love many other types of music, including rap. And Yeah I am one of thoes car stereo blaster as you put it AND I am owner of Classe Electronics. I bet If Stereophile or TAS starts to review rap music favorably, you would buy it. I am not looking for pissing contest . Okay? And don't even think about criticizing my spelling or grammer. |
hey kev, i am just listening goodie 'still standing'. Maybe you should check it out. I would recommend you also puff daddy 'no way out' and you should start with oldie cube ameriKKKan most wanted let me know |
Kevziek, Are you mad at someone? You seem a little pissed off. Did you get beat up recently by some rappers? I thought this thread was over with. Oh well its still fun |
Kevziek, my little sister calls people like you "Scared White People".
You call yourself a professional musician but don't seem to know much about music.
I see rap as a least common denominator of the product of generations upon generations of slavery (even after the civil rights movement). You need to remember that slaves were brought from different regions of Africa and thus removed from their native types of music (which are very different one from another--take it from someone originally from the Caribbean). What was common to all of them was the storytelling in a call and response pattern with heavy primal rythms.
And that's what we have. Unfortunately, we are having kids not learning music and thinking it all ends there--I'll give you credit for that. From what I understand the average Spanish rap recording has a shelf life of only TWO months! That's it. Nobody will remember them two years from now. So there is something very wrong here. It's just that you present it along with your prejudices and fears...and others are unable to sift and sort your message. They need a better jitter filter.
Peace. |
>> I see rap as a least common denominator <<
There's the problem - "least". Rap "music" is the lowest form of musical expression. Black music is, as you correctly stated, based upon a call and response pattern - the great gospel music and much of jazz bears this out. However, the BIG difference is that those musicians are actually playing instruments and/or SINGING - not scratching records and woofing. Any idiot can run his mouth, curse, and degrade women - it takes real skill and dedication to get up and sing with the choir - that's music, my friend.
>> Kevziek, my little sister calls people like you "Scared White People".
It's just that you present it along with your prejudices and fears... <<
Ahem, now who's showing their prejudices? Just because Kevziek hates rap doesn't make him white and scared. Wynton Marsalis can't stand rap, either. I hate rap, too, and I'm white, but I am not much afraid of anything - except my wife .
Keveziek's main point is that American culture has declined dramatically in the last 30 years, and rap is one of the signs (Brittney Spears is another ). The fact that everyone gives rap artists a bye on the crap they produce is simply because it makes money and it is political suicide to criticize ANYTHING done by blacks today, no matter how tasteless or lame it may be. |
You know, I was talking to my former college advisor a few months ago about noticing how scared the majority of white people live...
I say hello to my building manager from my balcony and she jumps! Neighbors have called the police because my sister forgot to bring back in the house the empty trash cans...when I was in senior in college I was living in 'the flats' and some white married couple moved below us. They immediately freaked and became the organizers of "Neighborhood Watch". The neighborhood was fine (blue collar), just that a lot of the residents were black. What the f***?
I was in the U.S. military, too. But that's another story...
BTW, I am white--and my Spanish grandfather was very fond of Franco and the Germans, if you know what I'm talking about. |
Tru - I thought this thread was dead, too. I see a few listed objections to rap: glorifies violence and misogyny (unlike, say. the blues, right?), rappers don't sing, music is simply played off records, listeners listen to the music too loud. I can't help but think these are stereotypically ignorant statements. Take a band like, say, The Roots. I had the opportunity to see them perform a few times last summer and immensely enjoyed the sound. All music came from instruments (drummer was as solid as any I've seen this side of a 'big name' jazz performance) that were played well. Their performance was no louder than any of the other performers on the marque (another rap group, two rock & roll groups, and a not so unfamous electronica musician). While the words weren't recited in the melodic tradition, they were certainly sung, that is they showed rhythm, tempo, dynamics, and phrasing (When the poet writes, 'I *sing* of a man and of arms', what melody do you think he had in mind?). And finally, the lyrics were for the most part positive and well written. It's OK not to like rap. It's OK not to like Mozart. You just shouldn't go around criticizing an art form that ultimately you know very little about using arguments that are intellectually dishonest and easily dismissed by a single counter example. |
Obviously some people have a serious problem with rap/hip-hop. More than just not liking the music, they seem to dislike what rap represents. I suspect that rap artists wouldn't have it any other way. As a form of expression rap music is created by a cultural underclass. They are a group of people who have little or no place in the dominant society. Is it surprising that this underclass strives to offend all the values of the larger society? It makes some people uncomfortable that young black men have figured out a way to make large sums of money telling America, in effect, to go fuck itself. |
Nilthepill, you continue to speak volumes about yourself by bragging about how an engineer at Boeing runs about in his car blasting rap music into his neighborhoods and proud of it. Frankly, none of your abusive comments deserve any attention, and will get no more in the future.
The lack of any substance to Psychicanimal's babblings in response to my thread are only further reinforced by his next thread which fails to address any of the valid points made by Rlwainwright. As far as his baseless comment that "You call yourself a professional musician but you don't know much about music," what are your credentials, Psychicanimal? Do you read music, do you play numerous instruments, do you thoroughly understand the structures of harmony, chord structure, polyphony, harmonic progression, orchestration? Have you sung and played with the Chicago Symphony Orchestra and Chorus?
Your diatribe about "Scared White People", this has nothing to do with anything being discussed here.
Rap is not music -- it is polluting noise. It doesn't have melody, it doesn't have harmony. To elevate this trash to an artform or to deign this to be music only exposes the ignorance and lack of sophistication of the writers in this thread. |
Nahhh, I'm from a barrio, unsophisticated...only sing in the shower and inside my car...but got a scholarship to an Ivy League university and took a class in musicology (Sound, sense and idea). I was taught in that class what you cannot comprehend with all that classical Western upbringing: WHAT IS MUSIC EXACTLY?
As for my musical talents, I'm no professional. Took a year and a half of piano and three of accordion. Before leaving the Caribbean I was undergoing an apprenticeship in steel drum building, tuning and playing with master Jack Warren of Antigua. Bet you probably think that's not a musical instrument either...it's made from scrap--right?
About music and fear: it's related, not 'babbling'. If you'd been at the Vicente Fernández concert in Allstate arena you would have seen DOZENS of scared Rosemont police officers. Just because the Mexicans were having a good time. The cops would encircle themselves like cows in a corner...outside some six or seven jumped on a kid because he was smoking pot. I couldn't stand it anymore and I yelled at them if that's how many of them it took to arrest a kid. My Mexican friend panicked, but having been a former Federal law enforcement officer I just didn't give a s***.
Sadly, this is what's going on...
BTW, after you guys finish attacking rap, please move on to Mexican "Corridos" and then on to Dominican "Bachata", Lesser Antilles' "Soca", Colombian "Cumbias" and anything else is not in your taste. |
Look what I started. But I am glad I did. To bring the worst in Kevziek, since his "Classe" thread, where he spoke volumes about himself. TRASH all things Classe and now Rap without doing enough research and much with prejudice. Stop bragging about your artistic highness already.
Since my response, I see a good discussion coming out on the topic ( although that was not Tru's intention). I say keep it going with intelligent responses (no bitching)like Onhwy61 and Psychicanimal has been providing. I urge Audiogon to sensor responsibly. |
Tru:
At the risk of getting slandered myself by someone (or a group of persons) who have elitist stigmas attached to them out there (and I hope and pray that they aren't any on this board), I am kind of like you also. I listen to R&B, Jazz, Fusion, and Rap/Hip-Hop as well, but my tastes in audio equipment is definitely high-end. Even though, I listen to the same type of music you listen to as well, the thought of owning anything made by Technics, Bose, Pioneer (unless it is an Elite model), or Sony (again, unless it is an ES model) is enough to make me cringe, if not make me puke altogether. While I cannot afford any Mark Levinson or Krell gear, I am not going to settle for any mass market crap either. The way I see it is this, if any audio component that calls itself a "high-end" component, then that tells me that THAT component strives to put accuracy and presentation over "tizz, boom, and sizzle" each and every day. The component in question should be able to reproduce the musical piece EXACTLY the way the artist has intended it to be reproduced. It should NOT add anything to it, NOR should it take anything away from it. It should reproduce the piece EXACTLY AS IS. It's all cut and dry when you sit down and think about it. The component in question should be able handle P Diddy, T-Pac, and WuTang just as well as it would handle the Mozart, Jimi Hendrix, Fleetwood Mac, and the Stones.
And just for the record, I listen to the same stuff you listen to (LL Cool J, Naughty By Nature, 2 Pac, Nortorious B.I.G., P-Diddy (including the stuff he put out when he was addressed as "Puffy"), DMX and Lil Kim), but I do has some Ella Fitzgerald and Count Basie (and some other Jazz artists) as well.
And I listen to it on THIS system:
KEF Reference 102 with KUBE Equalizer
Adcom GFA-545 MkII
Adcom GFP-750
Magnum Dynalab FT-101
Pioneer Elite DV-37 (has a surprisingly good audio section)
JVC XL-M509TN
MITerminator 2/MITerminator 3 Interconnects
MITerminator 2 Speaker Cables
I also listen to rap music on a "high-end" audio system, and I see nothing wrong with it. Be true (no pun intended) to yourself. Listen to what you want, and do so on any system you feel like buying and listening to. Any one who cops an "elitist" attitude toward that, then I say, screw them. This is 2002 right now. We're supposed to be way beyond this kind of crap.
--Charles-- |
Kevziek, I've got the medicine for you: Wednesdays 6:30 PM @ the Buzz (308 W. Erie St.)
Go with an open heart and have fun. Only $5.00 cover. |
Kevziek, I hope you are a troll, cause if so you're brilliant.
The way you conflate hatred of the people playing the music with the music itself is the point. Hell, I usually can't stand those car sub woofer systems either.
Anyway, 'Rap' like any other genre isn't monolithic, you have obviously only been exposed to a small slice, and comercial rap is an awful primer. It's market tested to piss you off.
The other thing to keep in mind, and the reason many people can't stand the stuff, is that they're concentrating on the wrong part. Most of it is all about the lyrics. The focus of production is on saying something clever/poignent/funny/abstract/whatever. The beats, while not necessarily an afterthought, may not be given as much attention - just make them funky. Of course there are plenty of acts where the beats bleed in to electronic music territory and are the just as important, or more so. |
Tru:
As I look at your system again and again, I would say that I like your amplification, and I don't think you should change that.
But perhaps, maybe you could tell me a little more about the Platinum Audio Reference 2's that you have in your audio system??? As I am not familiar with this speaker system, maybe you can tell me what kind of system this is. Is it a floor standing/full range system??? Or is it a bookshelf/stand mounted system like my KEF Reference 102s are??? And what is the driver complement of the Platinum Reference 2's???? Is this a two way or a three way system??? And in either case, what is the woofer size of the Platinums??? I am asking all of this because if you like the Platinums so much, then why are you so inclined to change them?? Depending on what you tell me about the Platinums, I am inclined to tell you to go ahead and keep them, and just spend your money on a good subwoofer instead. But now, if you have your heart on upgrading the speakers anyway, then I would say that you should look at the Wilson Cubs (like you have stated), and then mate them to a Wilson Subwoofer (if you want to spend the money to do so). Otherwise, if the Wilson Subwoofer is not your cup of tea, then there is always the Velodyne HGS-18. Also, at a risk of opening up another can of worms here, are you planning on upgrading the CD Player anytime soon????
Me??? In order to upgrade the bass response in my system also, then I am looking at either a pair of Aperion Audio SW-8 Powered Subs, or a used REL Strata II. If those two options are not feasible, then I may upgrade my speaker system as well. If I should decide to go down that road, then the speaker system that I have my eyes on would be either a used pair of Vandersteen 2Ci's or a new pair of Vandersteen 2Ce Signatures (with the endcaps finished in cherry or rosewood).
But anyway, look at the options that I have suggested for you, and then tell me what you think.
Thanks........
--Charles-- |
Boy oh boy I thought this was a done thread until I saw the thread by that closed minded fool KEVZIEK.Music is my choice not yours,anyway if you dont like the rap,wear ear plugs because I know if you say something you might get your butt kicked.It doesnt matter what one chooses to listen on their high end system,but JEEZUS ....TRU is only asking for help not criticism of the type of music he listens too.I sense a lot of PLAYER hATERS because the guy listens to RAP on high end.HIGH END aUDIO is not for CLASSICAL and JAZZ only.I listen to DISCO,FUNK,MAMBO known as SALSA,LATIN JAZZ and even RAP on my system and CeRWIN vEGAs will not do the trick.I remember listening to the FANIA label in the 70s and the sound quality was average not great sounding,as RMM took over the sound quality got much better...WHY??? MONEY,LOOT SCRATCH GREENBACKS BENJAMINS ETC.is the answer.So come on give the brother a break. |
Boy, I've been reading the responses to Kevziek and all I see is hate and intolerance from those who don't agree with him.
Kevziek stated his opinion and right away he's wrong and must be prejudiced for believing the way he does. It's ok to believe what you do as long as you believe the same way I do! Tolerance only applies to my ideas not yours!
I could go on but why bother. BTW I am a 45 year old Puerto Rican male. |
Simply because KEVZIEK got off the track of the thread.TRU was asking for suggestions for his set up not about his taste in music.And I'm a 43 Y.O. Puerto Rican male too.KEVZIEKS opinion is like everyone elses.It's like rear ends everybody has one of those too.So who really had the lack of tolerance. |
I still think the best thing you can do to get the most out of rap, is go out on the stoop, hook up to car 12 volt batteries to 2 corrugated steel garbage cans and sit real close! doesn't get any better than that for rap.
joeb |
Didn't I hear a while ago that the best rapper on the east coast killed the best rapper on the west coast or vice versa? |
" Rap Music" is an oxymoron |
