Solid State vs. Tubes - What if Transistors came first?

Tubes get inconveniently hot, but main factor in their renaissance is that they are perceived as being cool.

'''pilots and air traffic controllers commented, “Hey, what happened to all the air...

It must be scary when you are a pilot and all the air is gone.

I approached that Dynamic Range Database with an open mind and lots of interest. I came away with understanding that either dynamic range is not reliably coinciding with my perception of pleasant recording, or that Dynamic Range Database is, in reality, a random number generator. Basically, I found it useless for all practical purposes although I do not deny its appeal to number-crunching theoreticists.

As a minor error in previous post, google search digs out Unofficial Dynamic Range Database. Although an "official" one would imply seriousness and provide for convenient halt of all further questioning of the results, whoever put it there was fair enough not to proclaim her/himself as an official authority.

https://www.guitarplayer.com/gear/guitar-essentials-five-things-you-should-know-about-tubes

This is really informative for a novice guitar player who has barely heard of tubes and wants to influence the sound in some way. After reading it, the question remains if same intentional changes in the sound could be produced by simply turning a knob of some non-tube device. I would guess they could, but I am not sure.

Television sucks.

You are left with reading, but that often sucks, too.


Sleep tight, instead.

You just cannot win.

geoffkait,

I doubt it is an organized conspiracy. More like aural blinding by the numbers.

I was comforted that I am not the only one with similar results. Looking for official, I stumbled upon unofficial in some article in Stereophile. Enough of the readers' responses assured me I was not completely wrong.

https://www.stereophile.com/content/unofficial-dynamic-range-database

"...tubes aren’t bad nor are they obsolete"

Watch out for a new tube-driven iPhone coming out at tomorrow's Apple conference.

erik_squires,

"Pineapple and pepperoni pizzas are wonderful things."

Should oregano go directly on dough, on sauce, or on top of everything?

I have been asking this question for the longest time around here and not even geoffkait knows the answer. Mankind is doomed, indeed.

tubes have warmth.

Tubes are cool.

Interesting. Maybe it does catch on.

maritime51,

Have you heard that tubes suck? It was in the news today.

Many a deformation is elastic. Some not for long.

They never die. They become Nu.

dave_b,

Your daughter is one lucky girl. I was buying it for my friend's daughter who would fly to U.S.A. from Europe just for concert. European tickets had been long gone. Now, tell your daughter it is unimportant music and see what look you get. While you are at that, ask her about tubes. They are all the rage among younger crowd, I hear.

Being a crystal and a rock is not mutually exclusive.

Rocks and crystals come in various sizes and weights.

Degree of friction does not influence classification into rocks or crystals.

I have not learned about Metallica in elementary school so I cannot comment on that.


Note to geoffkait: Check if the prep school you attended has money back guarantee.

I am glad to be of service.

This is the month for Erdheim-Chester awareness.

I may be hardheaded, but have no rocks in it yet.

atmosphere,

"This is a common strawman. There’s no rock."

I have a feeling that kosst_amojan was alluding to diamond that is often, if not always, at the tip. I have no idea where cartridge manufacturers source it from, but many a bride-to-be likes to refer to it as a "rock". Probably all of the bride-to-be ladies would be very disappointed if rocks they got were size of a needle tip, though. What do they use to make contact surfaces of the styli these days?

I also have old records, dating much before 1990s, that sound just fine to me even if "rocks" they were played with have not always been state-of-the-art. In fact, some did have coins placed on the tonearm. "Sounding fine to me" may be influenced by nostalgia, though.

"You don't have to know anything about engineering to understand this- its purely economic. If tubes were really inferior, they'd be gone, but the marketplace keeps them around."

Not many major electronic products seem to use tubes anymore. Not even in this minuscule "audiophile" world. I would dare to say that, even as dependent on electronics as it is, an average Western world household does not have one single tube inside the house/apartment. What the heck, make it any world. It is pure economics, indeed.

Tubes may be surviving as a niche product for a few enthusiasts and that is who they are being made for. They have not died, despite them actually needing replacement quite often, because there is a market for them and that market is negligible when talking about economy. There are many products that survive because of people who cherish them for whatever reason despite significant flaws. Tubes are one of them.

I am all for tubes, but saying they are not an obsolete technology is a bit of over-optimistic stretch of imagination. Ask anyone younger than 40 about tubes. Chances are they will not have any idea what you are even talking about, much less have ever seen or used one.

"People that care to listen without bias can easily hear that tubes are superior, when designed properly. Ask John Curl."

Some of us, me included, would not argue about sound signature of tubes as often being much more pleasing. However, I would prefer to ask maritime51 and kosst_amojan for their opinion first. Just so I do not become a simple tube-admiring mind that only sees what it wants to see.

"Tube’s, like vinyl is in its 2nd renaissance."

That is undeniable. However, it is not that hard to go up when you are starting at the bottom. As far as vinyl renaissance is concerned, some might say that Park Slope kids have something to do with it. You know, those guys on Peugeot bicycles. Nobody there is older than her/his bicycle.

CD did go away, it matured and became files in your computer. That is called evolution.

Not me, geoffkait, not me. My school was for free. We learned about crystals, rocks, counting, you name it. I apply that basic knowledge on this thread. It is, in fact, enough for discussions here.

Tubes were a step along the way to where we are today, which is not tubes to any meaningful extent worth mentioning anywhere but circular threads on "audiophile" forums. There was no sign of tubes on today's Apple conference and Bose does not seem to use them either.

dave_b,

My feelings are not hurt by my post being removed and I can stop participating at any time, but it is peculiar what flies and what does not here. So far, I have been flagging only posts that call for death, suicides, and such.

There is lots of bad SS and tube gear out there, but there is lots of good, too.

The problem with these narrow-minded approaches we see here is what mckinneymike summarized well "It is a simple mind that only sees what it wants to see".

There have been, in recent posts, claims about advances in vinyl technology. They are certainly true and they are commendable. I have taken advantage of them myself. However, such statements made to support the claim that vinyl is superior to digital, omit mentioning the fact that digital has been improving as well.

atmosphere,

I think you misunderstood my post. Tubes do exist and do have their place in a very small market spot. I enjoy hearing them from time to time, too. However, they are as obsolete as they get on the global scale. 40-year-olds have no idea, save for a few cool ones, what tubes are. Ask them why Powerpoint slides are called like that. Not many will have an idea. Tubes, slides, it is all somewhere in the past. You and I can babble about it, but tubes are long gone in any, as you mentioned, economic sense. Convenience, reliability, and performance of solid state ran them over. We can enjoy them, but we are not that big of a number.

I just had another post removed. It is not "go figure" anymore. I have been insulted enough on these forums, while attempting to stay polite that having posts removed that come nowhere close to what I have been subjected to is making me wonder what is the point of participating anymore.


By the way, moderators, ridiculing certain disability over and over again is not cool at all. Take notice.

"Bose......I forgot they even existed to be honest."

Well, many people have not. Check their sales figures, if you can. Compare them with tube equipment. I would guess you are not aware of reality these days. If you discount them as a significant company in music reproduction, it would be hard to explain it.

"I know a heap of 20 year olds that know what tubes are."

You may know them all then. Do not let that fool you into believing it is how things are in general.

To paraphrase mckinneymike… don't become a simple mind that only sees what it wants to see.

geoffkait,

You are right. My humor is a bit over the average. It requires some simultaneous juggling, understanding, and use of multiple facts while applying knowledge of multiple fields from more than a first sentence on some Wikipedia page.

On the other hand, given that your humor is widely accepted here while mine gets deleted, I am honored.

maritime51,

You mean...
Bose: no highs, no lows, no tubes.


Wait, yes highs. High sales.

geoffkait,

I am dead serious.

maritime51,

They are not dead. They are on life support.

geoffkait,

">>In that case I really don’t get it."

I know. You do prove my point. It is above average. Not everyone can get it. I am sorry, I cannot help you.

By logical deduction all the unimportant music ever made was recorded and mastered using transistors.

It may be a whirlpool of words, but it is still very incorrect in any logical sense. Not to mention unimportant music. Jimi Hendrix at Woodstock is quite unimportant. Just ask a different heap of the 20-year-olds.

maritime51,

Do not be so pessimistic. Tubes are resilient. They may last up to 3-4 years. Also, do not underestimate the fashion factor. Resurgence of tubes coincides with cycle that brings bell-bottoms back. Just look around yourself. It is all full of tubes. At least according to this thread.

Well, now you know how all of us feel about you. By the way, if you are really interested in important music these days, it is BTS. I have no idea how they are recorded, if they are even recorded at all.

What dude? I do not drive a taxi.

BTS are big. At this point, way bigger than Jimi Hendrix.

dave_b,

I was trying to get tickets but it was not that easy. In short, I failed. As a consolation prize, there is a sweater.

geoffkait,

What you saw on Wikipedia does not give you a sense how big BTS really are.

geoffkait,

I got as far as, “My understanding is...”

It is fun learning new things. Less you know, more fun it is. Try it.

Dear Lee,

You would not like to come back and find yourself in the middle of a tubes Renaissance Period. You know, like those events from 500 years ago. Lots of art, a little less technology.

geoffkait,

Not reading past "My understanding is..." makes it difficult to know how true the rest of the writing was. That surely is the difference between us although I hope it is not the main one.

For now, I would like to recommend some good reading about matters discussed...

https://www.amazon.com/Best-Sellers-Books-Childrens-Rock-Mineral/zgbs/books/3278

#7 is a true gem.

Where could I get that book? Does it have ISBN? I am interested.

Tubes are cool. Yin and Yang of audiophile world in just one item. So warm and yet so cool...

Did Teletubbies have anything to do with this debate?

"1) Are most advocates of SS sound old fellas?"

What would be some approximate cut-off for this?

At the same time, some people advocate for solid state equipment because of convenience and ease of use.

I would rather guess that maritime51 has visited the first room of the ossuary at the Capuchin Crypt on Via Venetto. It is art, indeed.

maritime51,

Maybe you can make a Tubuary. Some art made of old tubes and then bring transistors to see it. The sign would say

"what you do now, we did when we were lit
just like we are now, you will be obsolete"

maritime51,

Stop confusing our humble scribe. Google will start charging him for all these searches.

No soft-tissue organs, just bare bones. Nicely arranged. Highly recommended. I think that ticket is about 10-12 Euros.

In a hundred billion galaxies, you will not find another.

Is that a promise?