Charles, I don’t know why many builders don’t use film caps in the power supply? Why they don’t use better internal wiring? Why they use such long signal paths? Why they don’t use breakers? Why many builders think one part sounds the same as another as long as both are in spec and think boutique capacitors/resistors and the like are snake oil? Why do we still use conventional binding posts instead of clamps that clamp the output wires to the speaker cable? Many more audio questions I wonder about in terms of tube gear design.
I think some builders do what they know over and over and really don’t innovate in ways that challenge their comfort zone and conventional wisdom. I am confident this is at play. Some builders do push their comfort zone and are open minded and intentionally curious. Intentional curiosity and openness to outside ideas is indeed in short supply based on my business experience.
My ears know breakers sound better than fuses all else being equal. I am speaking about AC mains voltage here. |
I sourced some breakers for $40, but builders would get a far better price. Paul was also a recording expert and produced many a recording. I trusted his ears and brilliant mind and then tried it myself. Being in innovation professionally I have a healthy dose of intentional curiosity. However, my curiosity is not as reigned in as the engineers and operations folks I work with. Yes, I am a marketing guy who thinks all things are possible!
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Many designers do not think boutique parts sound different or better. Many big names that I won't mention here think all wire, fuses, capacitors, resistors etc... that meet spec will sound virtually the same. They are wrong. Just because they are talented designers does not mean they were or are opened minded enough to test all manner of boutique parts in their circuits and relentlessly fine tune and learn.
I have had several designers tell me upgrading parts in their design would not improve the sound. Well, after prolonged and disciplined testing of "boutique" part upgrades I knew first hand the real answer. Yes, better quality parts often improve the sound in a given circuit. I assume fuses would be no different. Heck a couple of resistors make a difference, it all makes a difference.
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I owned a set of $16,000 - $18,000 speakers built with $10 Solen caps and sand cast resistors. The builder told me upgrading the parts would not matter. He could not be more wrong. After the upgrade he then told me the Zobel network would not benefit from upgraded resistors etc... again he was so wrong.
Several good tube amp designers also told me upgrading internal parts would be a waste of money and time. Again, anyone and everyone in my home could easily hear the improvement.
Why do some talented designers disregard the use of "boutique" parts? Well I know first hand many have not even tried them in their designs being turned off by the cost and assumed waste of time/money. Several told me these parts were marketed to weak minded audiophiles.
I get it really. They are busy running a business and all that goes with it. They are busy designing and sourcing parts that work. Do they really treat their designs like a high end chef treats a recipe? The high end chef will search high and low for that special quality, fresh ingredient that goes beyond just filling the ingredient requirement. For example, using La Vera smoked pakrika from Spain instead of common paprika. This is analogous to a designer using a Duelund capacitor instead of Solen or SR fuses etc...
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Good point and I have also experienced this attitude. I call it being closed minded and not having a healthy curiosity for what may be outside of their experience and current knowledge. Lots of knowledgeable people out there besides ourselves:) |
58, I build with the same parts and learned first hand how great Jupiter caps, Path Audio resistors etc... are. I would also add how great Clarity TC film caps are in a power supply. These TC caps are far better than oilers or Solen fast caps. More tube amp builders should use them. Yes indeed wire makes a difference in amplifiers.
It also seems fuses make a difference and I think that only makes sense because all parts matter. The fuse is a part. Diodes matter. Tube sockets matter. Tranny wire matters. The fuse holder would also matter. I suppose if I used fuses I would dispense of the fuse holder and silver solder the fuse in place as this would surely sound even better. |
Wow. Listening to Sebok and Starker on The Mercury Living Presence label right now (Roon & Tidal). Brahms & Mendelssohn Cello Sonatas. It is just beautiful. Love to hear about other pieces like this beauty! |
I find the sound quality of the few MLP recordings I just listened to be full bodied and natural in tone with no upper mid or treble thinness or bite whatsoever. Very nice indeed. |
Gk, good point. My point of reference then would have to be other recordings of same genre. Still subjective based on what I have heard on other recordings. I have not heard MLP recodings on any other sources other then my system which is computer based with Roon/Tidal and ripped CDs.
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I love Ivan Moravec. Listening to the double album of Debussy & Chopin - Piano Works. Thanks guys for the music. |
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In the spirit of innovation and "what can be" the fuse holder is important for several well understood reasons which include;
Quote from DIY audio site that is remarkably forward thinking;
"On other equipment, I went through the trouble of making a few fuse holders to experiment with. My experiments revealed the importance of contact surface area, material, plating, contact pressure, wire termination mechanics, attachment of fuse holder to chassis, with best results achieved with high contact pressure, copper-plated brass, cylindrical fuse holder with crimp fitting for wiring, and teflon outer dialectric.
Somebody once mentioned that perhaps Furutech or some other company should manufacture an audio-grade fuse holder one day, since the existing options for these are really unimpressive from anything else but a safety perspective. Does anyone know of any audio-grade fuse holder for 5 x 20m fuses?"
In 5 years perhaps all of our gear will benefit from better fuses, fuse holders, and a slew of other improvements coming from the minds of those who are intentionally curious and innovative today. All you detractors, as humorous and fun to read as you are, also benefit from these very ideas, past and present. Hope you realize this. Today you joke about fuses or fuse holders and tomorrow they will be better designed and enjoyed by all. Today we benefit from advances that were ridiculed in the past. Innovators and early adopters should be thanked. Wether graphene, power transfer technology, or whatever, those who are opened minded and open to learning at least stand a chance of improving technology for the rest of us.
Sure, you guys owe us in the fuse crowd a big thank you😊 |
Another reason is a patent makes your idea and process visible to all including competitors. Competitors make a couple of changes and they can in fact "copy"your "patent" in large measure. Sometimes it is better to just keep it hidden. I experienced both in my innovation career...that is filing and not filing and the consequences. |
George, to answer your question;
Here are just a couple of site quotes from fuse manufactures. Yes they obviously sell these, market these, based on delivering better sound. They don’t try to hide it and push better sound as the big benefit. This is not news?
This builder ( Audio Horizons) also puts the fuse in his amps and preamps touting better sound. No secret or hiding of what they feel is the big benefit. Fine sounding gear as an FYI.
"What Makes the Platinum Reference “More Than a Fuse" So Fine?
Without betraying proprietary information, let me note that the More Than a Fuse dramatically increases the impedance from 0.2 ohms to 10 ohms at 10 MHz, thus increasing high frequency noise-rejection fifty fold over that of a conventional fuse. As a result of this increased noise rejection, one can hear delicate extended high frequencies formerly swallowed up in noise."
"And because the Platinum Reference “More Than a Fuse” also reduces ultra high frequency noise by up to 46 dB or more, a ratio 200 times that of a typical fuse, high frequency harmonic texture is heard against a dead quiet background with a level of detail and refinement so sweet, delicate, and with such presence and immediacy—well, it will make you smile."
" Synergistic Research RED Fuses feature proprietary alloy burn wires and end caps encased in anti-resonant ceramic bodies. RED fuses are then treated with 2,000,000 volts of electricity in a process we call Quantum Tunneling that alters the conductor at a molecular level for optimum performance. Unique to SR RED Fuses is a new treatment process applied exclusively to SR RED Fuses that realigns the crystal structure of both the burn wire and the end caps for a refinement in high frequency characteristics and improved timbre linearity. All told SR RED fuses significantly outperform every other high-end fuse on the market and are the only fuses guaranteed to deliver a significant increase in system performance or your money back. When compared to our award winning SR20 Quantum Fuses, SR RED Fuses sound more refined with smoother highs and more linear frequency extension from the deepest bass to the highest highs; no small feat given the remarkable "
"Synergistic Research Quantum Fuses employ a custom alloy treated with 2,000,000 volts of electricity! SR Quantum Fuses significantly outperform all other high-end fuses on the market and are guaranteed to deliver a noticeable increase in sound staging, resolution and air thanks to a lower noise floor and blacker backgrounds. SR Quantum Fuses are available with a 30-day no risk money back guarantee so you can directly compare them to other high-end fuses on the market including Hi Fi Tuning Supreme, Furutech, and Audio Magic. With over 60 values to choose from, you’re sure to find the perfect value for your system’s components."
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George, first time I have ever posted these. Anyway these are direct quotes from manu sites and specifically answer your question perfectly. These are the actual quotes from manu sites on current and past products. I just did a 10 minute search and copy and pasted. You will find the very same quotes from the manufactures by doing the same search. I have never posted any other quotes on this matter, as far as I remember, as it really does not occupy much of my time or concern. I thought I would just help answer your question as I have seen it now a few times. Al, I am not saying these comments or quotes are true. Just sharing actual site quotes for George as he keeps asking a question which is very easy to answer by just looking at the manu sites current and past. That is all I did. I agree with your comments. George since you don't trust me here are the links for you read the same quotes I gave earlier; http://www.audio-horizons.com/pages/fuse.htmlhttp://www.synergisticresearch.com/new-category-synergistic-research-quantum-fuses-furutech-hifituni... http://www.synergisticresearch.com/synergistic-researchs-new-reference-red-fuse/ |
George, the Audio Horizons site does talk about sound quality here;
"with a level of detail and refinement so sweet, delicate, and with such presence and immediacy—well, it will make you smile."
Come on now please be intellectually honest. Your question was answered and the companies do tout better sound. These are just what I found in 10 minutes!
As to the truth of what they say on technical matters, you may be right and I am not smart enough to pick a dog in that debate. I do know they impact sound however. All you have to do is remove one and insert a copper slug or bypass one to know they certainly impact sound. I have done it and know the result. I have also heard one fuse sound different then another and one fuse increase my enjoyment of music more than another. In this regard I am like you in that I know the truth about fuses and no amount of prose on these threads really means anything as I have experienced the truth already. |
Shadorne a fuse is an internal part along with caps, diodes, resistors, wire, trannys etc.... all these internal parts do impact the sound assuming the unit is designed properly as you say. A properly designed tube amp does benifit sonically when higher quality parts are used like Duelund caps, Vishay nude resistors, film caps in the power supply, silver wire trannys, and a better quality fuse. It’s all in the soup.
This also holds true for any piece of gear. Parts matter beyond just hitting spec.
So in the end any well and properly designed piece of gear can sound good and even very good without upgraded caps, resistors, trannys, and fuses. No need for these boutique parts in well designed gear unless one wants that next level of improved fidelity. Power cords do the same thing as boutique parts often times. You are most happy without the boutique parts and that is most understandable. Nevertheless, these parts including fuses, wire, and cords do often improve fidelity. If not, then buy one of the many pro sound amps which are properly designed for $300 and that would be as good as it gets and this whole site/hobby is really useless. I know it is useless for many perhaps including yourself which again is perfectly reasonable and understandable. However, others have the need and appreciate what is possible which is also understandable.
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Funny stuff LOL! To bad it is off point. Like reading the wit in your posts as well as others however.
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Good points. More attention should be given to the fuse holder. This is an area for innovation for sure! |
Wolf, that is exactly what I do with some parts. Vibration of parts is something smart designers try to solve for wether it be tube sockets, caps, fuse holders, or other sensitive areas. |
I just went back to read your site information on the Teleportation tweak. Easily some of the best site prose I have ever read. I must remember to send my friends to your site. No, do not file for a patent as you will spill the beans on how you accomplish such a fantastic outcome. Keep it hidden and secret would be my professional advice. |
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Really no mystery here at all. As a modestly talented DIY guy I understand that fuses have always been a bottleneck in terms of sound quality. I learned several years ago to build amplifiers and preamplifiers without them. Use a high quality circuit breaker as your on/off switch and avoid fuses in the all important power supply. All that voltage/current going through a tiny, tiny wire connected with cheap fuse holder clamps does degrade the power supply. Seems straight forward in this particular fuse position.
I suppose these aftermarket fuses just limit the power supply less than the common fuse. That makes sense also.
Do one better and bypass those cheap fuse connectors and solder both ends. This makes it harder to swap fuses and direction, but it will certainly help the sound quality.
In digital gear, I just bypass the fuse altogether with great results as fuses are in fact a bottleneck point in terms of sound quality. Many simply could not live with such a mod and I completely understand. The point is the sound quality of these pieces improves with the fuse bypassed as fuses degrade sound.
I do not view fuses as a place where the voodoo claim can possibly reside, at least for the most part. Any fuse manufacturer using technology to improve the passing of voltage, current, and signal through this sound degrading devise is doing good to the component and music that flows out of it. This is no different than upgrading any other component such as a capacitor, resister, rectifier, rca jack, binding post, wire and on and on.
No, this is not at all hard to understand. At least to this simple aphile. Goodness, I upgraded the wire and rca jacks in a passive preamp and improved the sound. I think an upgraded fuse would also be a reasonable place to look for upgrades in performance.
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Yes indeed mapman. That is some read! |
John, we have indeed! Scores of professional reviewers, builders, and actual audiophile/music lovers have all heard the wonderful improvement. Hundreds if not thousands of us mere mortals!
How they work has been explained here and elsewhere. They work and scores of sane people attest to that fact. All that now remains is this fun reading. I rather enjoy it.
Not all have have heard it, but not all have heard differences in most anything from wire to amps. Heck, many of my friends can’t hear the difference between a great tube amp and a Kenwood receiver! Many good reasons for that could fill a book. Perfectly understandable some have not.
Sure, a verdict has already been reached and the rest of this is just for fun. |
I love this quote....can I use it?
"We do the difficult with ease, the impossible takes longer"
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Funny thing about what we learn in schools and books. Most of it is conventional wisdom and methods assumed to be the gospel. The older and more curious and innovative I become the more I realize that we have much before us that expands what we may have read and learned in the past. Question everything and experiment and experience for ourselves. |
Nice post as usual Charles. Well said. +1 |
What I find interesting is why all the fuses in gear? Paul of TRL, RIP, never used fuses in his amps and preamps. No fuse sounds better than any high end fuse. He taught me to build amps and preamps with high quality circuit breaker switches as the on/off switch. No fuse! That is one reason his gear sounds do good.
I noticed some designers have followed his lead, but not many. Big sound improvement opportunity for builders!
Now dacs use several fuses beyond the mains and present a different opportunity beyond the mains fuse. I have bypassed fuses (dacs & CD players) in the past and never had an issue. Fact is I have never had any fuse in digital gear blow. Never. Never heard of anyone blowing fuses in digital front ends beyond the mains. That being said, I don't want to mod my Luxman dac and will try some of these Black fuses soon. |
Yes, it would help LAK. I know as I bypassed the fuse in a CEC transport and it improved the sound nicely. A better fuse will also help as it approaches bypassing a fuse altogether, just not quite as good. |
Solman989, yes I have bypassed fuses for years with great results in my digital front end gear. See my post above which talks about using high quality circuit breakers for power switches in amps negating the need for any fuse.
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Gary, sorry but really? Just like filter caps, chokes, and diodes all these power supply parts impact the resulting sound. The fuse is part of the power supply. If you doubt it, then build the exact same tube amp with common cheap electrolytic caps the the other with Clarity TC film caps. Listen to both. Yes indeed in one sense all power supply parts are indeed in the signal path.
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Sorry Gary. I see you posted a quote from another person. My mistake. I like to read Wolf's posts and find him very entertaining actually. Wolf you have this one wrong however. Sorry.
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Cleaning the fuse holder and fuse ends is a great idea. No doubt. Remember however, no matter how well you clean a lower quality fuse it will never sound as good a a top quality fuse. You can clean that Radio Shack wire and connector for hours, but it still won't sound as good as Duelund wire with Furutech connectors. This is a great thread and in the end we will all learn more. |
Teo Audio. I posted the same thing much earlier on. I did in the past use appropriate sized copper lugs in place of fuses and the sound is soooo much better. No fuse sounds the best by far. Just simply avoid them (fuses) by using high quality Heinemann on/off breakers as the power switch.
Common sense tells me that a better quality fuse will sound better than a cheaply made one as no fuse at all sounds the best. I have experimented with all four - no fuse, copper lug, standard fuse, Synergistic fuse. I have heard the differences. I ask again, why not use a high quality breaker switch? Most gear is built with an on/off switch anyway and a fuse. Eliminate the fuse and yes you still have a switch, but certainly a better overall design by eliminating the fuse.
This is can be implemented in all manner of designs to better the sound.
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George and Teo, yes the re-settable fuses are yet another example of out of the box thinking. |
A fuse is certainly a weak point or limiting portion of the power supply. Try building the whole supply with tiny thin wire the gauge of a fuse and see how she sounds. Yes an exaggerated statement. Yes it is a weak link right? Can we agree on that? Seems obvious, but perhaps I am too simple minded as I know I am amongst some pretty bright folks on this thread.
I don't buy the argument that the span of wire is too short to make a difference. It does based on actual listening results. Seems this is the exact point of which this entire thread is debating. |
I owned the Inspire Fire bottle amp and it was just average at best. Other amps can be for the same money used that are better performing. Rather plain sounding and I felt it lacked any real drive.
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Yes the power supply in my amp was not very robust and the iron was very small and light. Was the iron high quality? I don't know for sure but the ElectraPrint amp that followed it in my home weighted twice as much and sounded so much better. The EP amp put out 12 watts.
I owned a George Wright 300b and 2A3 amp that was far more memorable sonically. Ditto for several other SET amps.
His design looked solid and I am sure a better power supply and iron would reap big sonic benefits. But this would cost more! |
Agreed. Just talking about the amps for Wolf. |
I like the thread as it covers a wide range of views and opens up our minds to areas worth considering and contemplating.
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My perception is that these fuses bring something to the table over conventional fuses, and no fuses sound best. |
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Barber is an artist and has her own unique style and creativity. All kinds of art and ways to communicate it in this big world. She may not be many folks cup of tea, but she is a credible and talented artist. |
Tolerance my fellow Agoners for music and artists others feel have value. I like all the artists mentioned including PB. Charles is very cordial and open minded as his comments always convey. I hope some are not saying she has no value because she is simply not their taste.
I like the the style of her recordings and like reverb and creative atmosphere at times. There is a season for many styles of music in my life. I love Sarah Vaughan as well.
i live in Nashville and while I am not particularly fond of country music, especially the new pop style stuff, I certainly respect the fact that many love it and feel the artists do add value to our culture and lives. |
Charles has shared a lot of great music that I have very much enjoyed as well as others on this and other threads. I have been listening to Carmen McRae today. I like her recording of Billie Holiday tunes as well as Book Of Ballads. I do think her voice was better in the late 50’s and 60’s, but no doubt she sang with emotion after these years.
I have also added Fingerpaintings to my favorites! |
The best is 110% subjective. What is best to you may be mediocre, at best, to another. Surely we cannot say the other’s subjective reaction to an artist or style of music is less worthy than our own? That would be, well, elitist. Correct? In the end we all have different tastes and nobody is "right". This applies to gear and wire also 😊
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God made us all unique. I respond to God through lyrics and the emotion/passion of the vocalist. From this perspective I respond to God and others though an artist like Sara Groves (Christian artist) more than Bach. One artist is not better than the other and certainly not in God's economy. Just the wrong question and thought process. |
Seems fuses,wire, and certainly politics divide more than religion 😊
Agreed this is no place to debate /discuss politics or God. Sorry I went there... |
Vibraphonist, Charles can you provide another two or three good choices. Like every recording you have suggested in the past! Tidal is a beautiful thing! Thanks so much.
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Glad you are healing up Frank and always enjoyed your likable demeanor here on the Gon! |
I think the point being made is every single piece of gear ever made is limited by the power supply. This includes everything plugged into any wall outlet in your home. That is what Jack is saying. |
Has anyone on this long thread heard a fuse that is 80% as good as the Black for far less money? Like you buy three fuses, but the Black are just too much money for me. |
