As a technology and innovation professional (not in audio industry though) I’d venture to guess that the good makers evaluate many design options all the time and choose the ones that are reliable and work well and are in line with the "brand". I’d expect some R&D budget is there to help raise the bar over time as well else one gets left behind eventually.
IF some things are not seen as often as one might expect there is a good reason.
Anyone with enough knowledge and skill can join the game anytime and try out their own believed innovations. If they are truly better, then that’s the ticket to success, like with Nelson Pass and many others.
Or maybe all these smart folks making this stuff are all just trolls who don’t believe that these particular things make for better sounding gear or do so for good value. That’s an easy explanation. :^)
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dl I think you are right. It would be malpractice in essence for any engineer worth their salt to incorporate something they did not understand. Once they understand it, then no problem.
You are also right that a troll is a troll and nothing will change that. It’s what they do, as they say.
If a Nelson Pass or others of his stature started using SR products in their gear, I for one would certainly take notice.
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wolf,
My only wish in this area is that people make good decisions based on good information.
Investing hundreds or thousands of dollars on shady fuses is not what I would choose but hey its a free country.
Cheers! |
DL,
It does not concern me what people buy. People can make their own decisions. You seem more concerned than I with people who think differently. |
I can’t help how you interpret it. It’s a pretty clear statement. Is there something wrong with it?
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dl if that statement bothers you I think its your problem not others.
I'm not questioning any ones decisions. They need not be same as mine. |
dl I have no idea what your talking about. Make bad decisions on bad info then if you prefer. Whatever makes you happy is a good decision for you. Keep me out of it please. |
Only fuse fans invited?
Tell audiogon to stop showing me updates to threads I've been in and maybe I'll forget. |
Here's an update. I took my red fuse out and using original ARC fuse. I don't hear a difference. |
Bully tactics won't work. |
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Yep, that’s pretty much it. Thanks again Al. You are the voice of reason and always a gentleman. We could all use more of that!
There is much more to be learned about the topic.
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I've seen that done on various pieces over the year. It makes for a better electrical connection which is always a good thing as has been cited though makes replacing harder. You would have to check the specific devices warranty to see what any impacts of changing yourself might or might not be.
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kalili in the case of magnepans fuses are directly in the signal path of the speakers I believe a case where they are more likely to make a difference. I don’t think anyone has challenged the greater likelihood of their potential effect on sound in that particular case.
As Al cited fuses are used in different places in different ways in different devices so mileage likely to vary overall.
It could also be due to a better/fresh connection with the new fuse in compared to old. The way to know would be to replace each a few times and see if the better sound occurs consistently with one fuse or another.
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You'll maybe understand these things someday perhaps. . Don't give up. |
Al from my perspective, your summary is the one presented here that best accounts for most all actual experiences related here with the fuses. That’s an indicator of a sound argument. Not to mention your large and sterling track record of providing valuable unbiased posts based on sound technical facts and reason here over many years.
Arguments based on defects with other peoples hearing or systems are totally unsubstantiated since the system in question have never been heard in support of the argument. Its not even an opinion rather a conclusion based on no actual fact or information other than a belief or assertion that the fuses must always make a difference which of course can never be proven, only that they can or may in certain cases.
Attempts to discredit or even chase away those with different or unpopular findings in my mind in fact discredits the accuser, not the intended victim. Its a reaction based purely on emotion or some other agenda and holds no water whatsoever. Pure bully tactics.
My issues or reservations are with Synergistic Research and their products discussed here specifically. I have not observed the value as a pricey (as fuses go) upgrade over the fuse provided in my Audio Research pre-amp in my particular case. That’s it.
Also I would tend to not buy products from Synergistic Research specifically based on my experience to date and assessment of information provided by SR on their products to date. That’s my judgement call based on my experience. Others obviously love their stuff.
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"Starve it of current or voltage lowering its performance;"
That's the one thing I know of that a fuse might do to affect sound.
To replace or not to replace? Simple risk versus reward. YMMV. If gear is under warranty and maker says no, I would not do it. For example my Bel Canto amp manual clearly warns against user changing the fuse. They are not under warranty though so less to loose if something goes wrong.
I can only speak for me. I am satisfied with any properly functioning fuse of known good quality. Devices shrouded in mystery by the maker make me nervous, especially when they are there mainly to do a common and simple job, like a fuse. So many ways to tweak and improve a system otherwise as needed.
If people want to hate on me or call me a troll for that, so be it. Its a position rooted mostly in common sense I believe and worth noting.
Again, I have nothing against those who apply fancy fuses successfully and are happy with the results. More power to ya'll!
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Almarg,
Would it be correct to say that your technical assessment of the potential impact or not of fuses in various applications cited apply only to properly functioning poosibly brand new fuses that are also installed cleanly properly?
For example, fuse might be an electronic bottleneck if not seated in-line properly (poor connection or connections) or if partially or mostly even but not fully blown perhaps, although I have no idea the likeihood of a fuse actually being found in such an intermediate state.
Al also I am interested in you technical assessment of use of Graphene in a fuse, as claimed. In a powercord? That latter in particular would seem to have a lot of potential upside despite some of the seemingly exaggerated marketing claims I have seen.
My assessment based purely on my days as a sales tech who replaced blown fuses in customers gear when needed is that if sound was not good, re-seating the fuse usually resolved the problem. Replacing the fuse when no sound at all of course always resolved that issue.
I never even thought about how one properly installed and working fuse sounded versus another. Not to say there were not differences just nothing that jumped out at me to even consider such a thing, though I always felt it better soundwise to use slow blow fuses when possible which tended to have more robust and likely more conductive filaments but I could not even say conclusively that I actually heard a difference.
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Papa I’m referring to the technical marketing claim that the Graphene is 8000000X more conductive which seems highly unlikely. What I have read about graphene indicates the increased conductivity is a much much smaller yet still quite significant number. Someone in marketing appears to be telling a flat out lie there. Sorry.
It has nothing to do with how much better anyone says it sounds. There is no factual basis to question what someone says they hear, other than how they know the difference is due to teh fuse, especially when claimed the change takes time to happen. As Al has pointed out many times both here and in other threads, many things hard to detect can change over time yet the tendency is to associate the change with the last known change.
Inquiring minds want to know.....
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Papa, I also explained above why I am not really interested in even a free fuse. I am interested in understanding how or why they work though. It matters to me. If I understand how something does what it does, I am more likely to jump. That’s just me though. There are many things I do not buy into even though I know they are good and other I do not buy into because I just don't know why I should. People report positive changes in their systems here everyday for myriad reasons. Gotta be selective. For every fuse one buys there is some other good tweak out there that they are not buying.
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For those without a skeptical bone in their body, there is this Machina Dynamica product line of Geoffkait's that has your name wrtiten all over it.... :^) Find out what artificial atoms can do for you.
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I’ve transferred a number of old 78 records from those days to my music server and agree they are an "interesting" sonic treat.
The other day I was listening to a professionally remastered CD version of Moonlight Serenade by Glenn Miller. Audiophile sound quality for sure in terms of natural sounding if not the nth degree in all technical attributes.
I love CD remasters of classics from the oldest days of recorded music. They are true music gems and most remastered well are quite unique and hold up nicely in comparison to many modern recordings. I could listen to that music all day long. |
Right and wrong sounding is often purely in the mind of the listener. |
OP the 78s I transferred were my parents mostly from around the early 1930’s. I heard and recall them when I was a kid and first fascinated with hifi and music on a variety of players from the 1950s.
What I hear now on my "good" system is not unlike what I heard then in terms of overall tonality (mostly midrange which makes for an interesting perspective on what is there given many things are not) but much more involving especially with my larger radial/omni OHM speaker based system since these speakers tend to make whatever comes through them sound like it is live in your room in terms of organic dimensional nature of the sound.
They are better than ever still even with more conventional speakers at work though.
I have one surviving 92 year old aunt in my family. I burned her a CD of these records from when she was a kid and she remembered them fondly and her face lit up when heard.
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Fuses matter! Gear might fry without them. By all means use good ones to prevent that just like the good gear makers did originally to deliver that great sound and long life everyone wants.
I trust certain ones enough to buy their gear so who better to recommend a fuse when needed? Maybe even ask specifically about the SR option if that’s how you might like to roll.
I’d be interested to know what actual gear makers say about the SR or other high end fuse options in their specific gear that they know best.
Or you can just trust whoever on the internet you happen to decide is best qualified or you just happen to like or want to believe in for that recommendation.
Definitely do not do anything that might unknowingly invalidate any warranties.
In all cases I wish all only the best of luck. |
Audiophile fuses are always a controversial topic.
People hear improvements but nobody can explain why.
That makes it interesting to me at least.
You'd think that some knowledgeable EEs in these parts could explain it. But not the case.
So there are some happy customers here hearing benefits yet why remains a mystery.
That's pretty interesting stuff compared to a lot of more mundane topics one often finds.
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I have no conflict of interest either. I even cited how the fuses might make a difference. But I am also not an EE. So reduce my skeptic rating accordingly please. :^)
OP, if you really want me to try the 3Amp fuse, go ahead and send it to me. IF you take the time and effort to do it I will give it a shot in my ARC sp16. It's totally up to you.
Geoff with all due respect you are a vendor and do have a conflict of interest. |
But seriously, Mopman, how does my vendor status enter into a discussion
of fuses? I don’t sell fuses? You seem to be saying vendors can’t
participate in discussions on ANY topic and should be banned from the
site. You're a smart guy. Figure it out. I didn't say you can't participate in anything. Only that you are a vendor selling other poorly understood tweaks and therefore may be judged to have a conflict of interest. Especially when you bash "skeptics". I'm sure you won't likely judge yourself guilty on that but others easily could, which is all that really matters. |
"So which is it, you think fuses work, you think fuses don’t work?’
I think it is definitely possible that different fuses could make things sound different at least in some cases. I’ve posted that on many occasions. I've never said they don't work
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Ok, so now I have no clue what in the blue hell these quantum chips do or when to use them or not.
Good thing this is just audio and not prescription drugs. The ramifications of trying things blindly just because would be much higher.
With audio, what’s the worst thing that can happen? Less perfect sound? Or if just a placebo no change at all that perhaps some might still hear for whatever reason. As long as the fuse is reliable to blow when it should.....
I will try my free trial fuse from OP both with and without and report on what I hear when I can.
This better be good!!!! I’d rather spend my time listening to the great sound and music I already have and worked hard to achieve then experimenting with things I have no clue about how they work or why. :^)
In any case when I tell my more normal than I friends including some world class systems engineers that I am experimenting with $100 hifi fuses and quantum chips, that will make for some entertaining discussions. Especially if they truly seem to work and make things sound better. I have absolutely no clue how a quantum chip works. Makes a fancy fuse seem mainstream in comparison.
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OP,
These are computer systems engineers like me. Not EEs,. Some of which are interested in hifi, some not.
They like to know what makes things tick in general, but are smart enough to know what they know and what they do not and act accordingly.
It’ll make for interesting conversation around the water cooler. That’s about as far as I will predict.
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I have 1st 50 cd MLP box set and all ripped at original resolution to music server. It's a wonderful sounding set with top notch sound quality overall. The sound quality MLP is renowned for is there in spades. Gk once again is spouting nonsense.
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Wolf,
Once I get all that I will surely be hooked and hired ninja assassins may not be able to make me part with my new friends.
We'll see.... :^)
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FWIW there is a thread here on Class D amplifiers that Glofi and I had it out on a bit recently. The difference is there the discussion remained focused on the topic at hand and there is plenty of information out there to support various positions so it all proceeded relatively peacefully and informatively. There was little or no personal attacks or name calling as I recall. Relatively civil in the end at least which is how things should be.
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Did the multiple bouts of ugliness on this thread start with the advocates of the fuses attacking the character, motives, intent, judgement, mental competency, etc of those that choose not to use the fuses or vice versa?
I’m pretty sure Geofkait is an advocate and he does that consistently all the time when challenged and shows no signs of ever relenting. As long as he is on your side I guess that makes it OK? The main problem is lack of information about the product to help convince the doubters and settle the arguments.. I think that’s one of Wolfs pet peeves and mine also. Sorry GK who sells teleportation tweaks and listens to a walkman with no fuses because he thinks all hifi products are inferior in comparison carries little weight at least for me. My red fuse is not being used. If I get some time maybe I’ll open it up, see whats inside, and share. |
OP I know you are just joking but discounting engineers does not help. You’d have no sound at all in your home without them.
Are you defending lack of information?
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Atmasphere Almarg and perhaps some other respected EEs here have weighed in. I’d offer an invitation for more EEs that might be out there to weigh in as well.
" Knowledge is a deadly friend
If no one sets the rules. "
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Which leads to a second observation, really a question: mapman, having come to your conclusion, why didn’t you move on?
My results may or may not reflect those of others. Do yours? My mind is still open to learn. Is yours? |
highstream how about this. I’ll make you happy and leave if everyone else who has listened and formed an opinion does too.
Thing is if I let others chase me off, then those remaining get to further their claim (which has been made) that what is said here must always be true because most or all people here say so.
Attempts to banish opposing views kinda always work out that way. Happens everyday all over the internet in particular with some very important issues that really matter much more than this little obsession of ours..
You should really just stand firm in your beliefs and consider resisting the urge to banish people for their opinions. It could well happen to you someday.
Deal? |
Isn't that a form of segregation? |
Just for the record, Gk and I are NOT like-minded. :^)
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GK you are a talking (walking I assume as well) advertisement for whatever sedation of choice others might choose. Doesn't matter though since OP is footing the bill.
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GK if you truly think that about the MLP Cds (I doubt the sincerity of most everything you say) then you may have gotten some bad copies (I have almost 100 and none are bad) or else you may need to check out your Walkman for issues.
All releases are somewhat different of course but MLP is consistently excellent and the best ones are among the best commercial recordings out there period.
What do you not understand about top notch?
Your OCD is getting the best of you again.
You and your alternate facts. I suspect you are pretty lonely in this particular stance oh great seer!
I will agree anything can be better. Let's all work on that one. |
Gk if you are truly listening to MLP recordings on a walkman and headphones, I can pretty much assure you are missing something. That might explain your opinions on MLP. I’m trying to help you out here..... :^)
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It’s kind of pointless to argue further on the subject of SQ and Mercury LPs or CDs as there are perfectly good reasons why you hear things as you describe, it doesn’t mean what I said is wrong. There are tons of MLP release reviews out on the web. Hello? Its no secret these things typically sound great. Unlike funky fuses. I know. I know. Still does not mean you are wrong. You're just a little different. Of course we all know that as well. Nothing wrong with that. Me too I suppose. Except I agree with the masses regarding sound quality of MLP. |
Wow your logic is impeccable! You need to work on your facts though.
Let me search for my audiophile membership card so I can turn it in.....
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Oregonpapa,
Red quantum fuse just arrived. Nice looking fuse, nicely packaged in original box. Seems to have some weight to it compared to most fuses as I remember. Thanks!
I will take it home with me today and see what happens. Might get to try it out tonight in my Audio Research sp16 pre-amp if all goes well.
Hang on to your hats.....
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Hmm, Ok issue # 1 for me with this fuse may be a show stopper in that it appears to not match my ARC pre-amp fuse specs.
ARC sp 16 manual indicates it takes a 3A, 230V slo blow fuse.
Syn. Red fuse is T 3.15A, 500V.
T indicates slo blow I believe (check), 3.15 A is close enough, but 500V rating means this fuse will take slightly more than twice as many amps/power to blow as it should with properly rated 230V equivalent fuse.
Unless I'm missing something I cannot put this into my ARC sp16 without risking damage.
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Al, Are you saying the 500V rating is safe even though it is twice what the vendor specifies because such an event /surge can never happen? Also I’m wondering if the 500V rating alone compared to most fuses rated for US standard voltage at 120 volts might alone account for some sound difference in some cases. I don’t see many other commonly used fuses rated for 500 volts when countries in fact go no more than 230 volts or so. What would be the rational for a 500V rating in this case? Here is a list of voltage standards per country I found. Nothing near 500 V. http://www.school-for-champions.com/science/ac_world_volt_freq_list.htm#.Vub7Ok_nQvY |
Al, right amps and volts are two different things. Fuses protect against current/amps. Thanks for that clarification.
Countdown resumed....
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I won’t even ask if anyone knows why the black sounds better than the red or how to decide reliably between the two. :^) Are the blacks also rated to 500V?
Yes, good thing Al is out there. I suspected that the higher voltage rating was OK but needed to do some research to confirm. I read a few misinformed blog threads on other sites that gave me pause. Never encountered a fuse rated 500V before for anything having to do with audio. So chalk one up for Synergistic research there regardless of the outcome.
See specs and facts DO matter and usually only help.
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