All systems have some form of distortion to some degree since none are perfect. The first basic trick to good sound is to minimize noise and distortion especially the more offensive kinds. Fuses are low in the food chain in terms of their overall impact on noise and distortion compared to most of the other usual suspects. If someone hears a difference with a fuse or other similar RELATIVELY minor tweak, that is probably a good indicator that most of the other bigger more common culprits are in check. Or maybe the original fuse needed reseating or had some other issue that the change fixed. I don’t see how anyone would object to calling a fuse a relatively minor tweak on e the grand scale of things, but I suspect some will. IMHO YMMV and all that good stuff as always.
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Oregonpapa wrote,
"^^^ If what I am getting out of my system at this point is called "distortion," then PLEASE ... bring me more distortion. :-)"
"Everything is relative." A. Einstein
Before you changed fuses most likely you were not particularly aware of any distortion, either. It's all relative. Trust me, you still have distortion. Of many different types, if I can be so bold to add.
cheerios
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" That’s precisely why I have taken the steps
to eliminate fuses from my system, actually to also eliminate and bypass the
house AC entirely, as well as eliminate power cords, electrical ground, wall
outlets, interconnects, transformers, large capacitors, crossover networks, room
interactions, things of that nature."
geoff. How do you eliminate all those things short of having an acoustical
band/group playing for you...in your home, at your own whim? Please enlighten
us.
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^^^ If what I am getting out of my system at this point is called "distortion," then PLEASE ... bring me more distortion. :-) |
Mitch wrote,
"Ironically I do not uses fuses in my current set up.
Yes Geoff, the irony of how much time you have spent posting to fuse threads for someone who does not use fuses is duly noted.
Maybe consider posting your system on Audiogon so readers can better understand your point of reference when you describe what you hear, or what components or accessories you believe to render a sonic difference."
Alas, in light of all that has been said in these fuse threads lo these past couple of months I would have thought it was kind of obvious that no fuse is better than any fuse. Perhaps it would help if I wrote it in all caps. That’s precisely why I have taken the steps to eliminate fuses from my system, actually to also eliminate and bypass the house AC entirely, as well as eliminate power cords, electrical ground, wall outlets, interconnects, transformers, large capacitors, crossover networks, room interactions, things of that nature. I am just not a big fan of the distortion and noise those things bring to the table.
geoff kait
machina dynamica
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I will try reversing the fuse today again |
Ironically I do not uses fuses in my current set up. Yes Geoff, the irony of how much time you have spent posting to fuse threads for someone who does not use fuses is duly noted. Maybe consider posting your system on Audiogon so readers can better understand your point of reference when you describe what you hear, or what components or accessories you believe to render a sonic difference. |
Davidpritchard wrote,
"geoffkait, I hope you will compare the fuses you presently use to a Synergistic Research Black fuse. I bet you have more experience with Audio Magic fuses than most of us. It would be less than a five dollar experiment (the cost of return shipping). Relax and enjoy the music."
i am relaxed. I'm not sure why you think I should be elected to do the experiment with the fuses. I have actually never offered an opinion one way or the other regarding the superiority of any fuse. Ironically I do not uses fuses in my current set up. You might have missed the discussion in which I divulged that I do not use fuses, I have no location anywhere in the system where a fuse can be placed even if I wanted to and I do not bypass fuses.
Cheers, Geoff
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tzh21y:
You have the Black fuse installed the same way as I have in the Marantz SA11-S2 SACD player. If the original fuse sounds better send the Black fuse back. It is all a matter of optimum system synergy.
charles1dad:
Glad to hear we both use the Oyaide WPC-Z outlet cover. I really like them. The SR Black outlets should arrive tomorrow. I will need to first condition them for a week before auditioning them .
geoffkait:
I hope you will compare the fuses you presently use to a Synergistic Research Black fuse. I bet you have more experience with Audio Magic fuses than most of us. It would be less than a five dollar experiment (the cost of return shipping).
Relax and enjoy the music.
David Pritchard |
tzh21y wrote,
"Well, after 100 hours, they still sound very thin and not musical. I put the original fuse back in sounds better to me with the original fuse. More life. Less detail and decay though. Cannot believe it."
i was kind of hoping you would try reversing the new fuse. Alas....
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Well, after 100 hours, they still sound very thin and not musical. I put the original fuse back in sounds better to me with the original fuse. More life. Less detail and decay though. Cannot believe it. |
"More bass the other way, just do not sound right."
That's because you didn't burn it in yet. Now flip the little rascal. |
Hi Frank,
For clarification I am not purchasing the SR Black AC outlet. I have no doubt that they are an excellent product. I'm using the Avatar Acoustic Afterburner 8 outlet (with the Oyaide WPC-Z outlet cover ) and I'm very happy with it. This outlet combined with the SR Black fuses is truly a delightful tweak upgrade to my system.
Charles, |
When the fuse is in the "wrong" way, the sound will be diffused like the system is out of phase.
Don't judge the fuse until you've passed 100 hours. Things should open up for you dramatically. |
More bass the other way, just do not sound right |
I changed the fuse direction, definitely sounded different to me. Decided to change it back to the way it was originally. S on power cord side r on transformer side |
"OK, fuse has been in all weekend.the glare that made many recording unbearable to listen to is pretty much gone. That's a good thing. However, it still seems to be lacking in bass and the emotional musicality is also missing. Hope it comes back soon."
So I suppose the 64,000 dollar question is: is the fuse in the "right" direction?
cheers
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OK, fuse has been in all weekend.the glare that made many recording unbearable to listen to is pretty much gone. That's a good thing. However, it still seems to be lacking in bass and the emotional musicality is also missing. Hope it comes back soon. |
tzh21y: It is amazing how much the Marantz SA11-S2 CD player responds to a Black fuse at the main power location. Small group music ( such as the Trio you mentioned) really becomes much more emotionally engaging with the Black fuse in place. Again congratulations on getting the cover off the player and the Black fuse installed. David Pritchard |
Wow, not even two days and I am hearing more air and decay than I ever did with the sa11 s2. Listening to Robin Nolan Trio. Never sounded like this before. Amazing this much difference. |
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mapman ... You can find the answers to all of your above questions via Youtube. You you go: https://www.youtube.com/results?search_query=synergistic+researchCharles ... thanks for the response. I know you've tried all of the outlets, so I look forward to your assessment of the new SR Black outlet. If it does what the fuses and PC's do, it should be a significant improvement over the others in your collection. OP |
@charles1dad thanks and you're right I'm blessed to be busy and have a job that I love! And finally logging some listening this morning Bob Marley & the Wailers 10/30/73 at The Record Plant in Sausalito CA, I feel better already :)
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Seriously I wonder has anyone ever heard a room done up with synergistic research stuff at a show? Do other rooms manage to compete or sound better in people's assessment? How do they demonstrate the effects of their stuff? Can they switch it in and out for comparison the good old fashioned way somehow?
Does Syn research do Capital Audiofest? I hope to get there this year maybe and am interested to see and hear how this stuff all works. |
oregonpapa: I am confident that you will hear significant differences between the Furutech GTX-R, Synergistic Research Teslaplex, and the newest Synergistic Research Black wall outlet when compared to your present outlet.
David Pritchard |
David ...
I'm using an older Oyaide outlet that I bought at the CES around 7 or 8 years ago. The distributor was having a 2 for 1 sale at his booth. So, I have one that my AC filter plugs into and another that's used for the 73 inch rear projection Mitsubishi TV. |
oregon papa:
What outlets of outlet are you presently using? My three systems -two loudspeaker systems and one dedicated headphone system all have 5 outlets on each circuit. No way to have dedicated lines. Today each system is multiple Synergistic Research Teslaplex outlets with one or two Furutech GTX-R on the same circuit.
With the black outlets I will put one on a headphone circuit and one on the system with the Terasonic single driver. I will leave the horn system alone to be the "control".
All the outlets are mounted to the Oyaide aluminum frame with carbon faceplates.
I am a real turtle when it comes to evaluating system changes. So no every 30 minute updates, but I do try to be thorough, and objective. And I do not hesitate to send products back that do not make a significant improvement.
The most important themes from this thread to me are:
Do not be scared to try products.
Send products back that are not worth it.
The same product may not help my system but might be perfect for your system.
Get over being scared to open an audio device even if just to look inside.
After a new device is added to a system and settled in, do not forget to consider fine tuning speaker toe in orthe location of footers under components.
The human listens with his brain not his ears. The ears are only acoustic transducers. Therefore a large emotional impact of an audio system change might measure very small or large .
Satisfying listening to all.
David Pritchard |
David, I'm looking forward to your thoughts regarding the Black outlets!
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Hi Jond,
Given the effects our sluggish economy is having on many people these days it's actually good that you're so busy with work. Glad the fuses are a success in your system.
Charles,
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^^^^ Terrific, David. I was hoping you'd be the first to try 'em. Please give an in depth report from the initial installation to the final break-in. I was just about to order the SR Red outlet .. but I'll wait for your analysis. Let's hope its an extension of what the fuses and PC's are doing. |
My preamp leave the tubes lit in standby mode then all the way on when I flip the switch. The only way to turn it off totally is unplug it which I never do. It uses tubes up more quickly, I retube about every 12-18 months, but it sure does sound great. And things just keep getting better as the fuses break in and I guess my speaker cables need to re-break in a bit, so loving the system more than ever. Just wish I have more, or any time to listen this week work is killing me!
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The two Synergistic Research Black wall outlets are on the way from High-End Electronics as of 10:00 am today. I expect to receive them Tuesday. Alfred Kainz of High End Electronics said the breakin is similar to the Black fuse in terms of sonic changes and time to settle in.
I have spent a lot of time comparing wall outlets:
Synergistic Research Tesla SE
Oyaide R-1
Furutech GTX-R
PS Audio Premium (grey body)
Original standard home outlets
David Pritchard |
Its true that some tube devices have rep for running tubes harder than others and individual tube life varies so it will vary but still worth noting.
I’m on third set of tubes in ARC pre-amp that I’ve had for four or 5 years now. It has 3 tubes in main pre-amp section and 3 in phono. The tube in first slot in phono section is the one that matters for phono noise levels I have found and needs replacing most often. I elect to not leave the ARC on when not needed to preserve tube life in taht I do not find warmup to be a significant thing for me. You would think most tubes have a long life and would not be impacted by an extra hundred hours or so but I’m sure it varies.
Bel canto amps (Class D not tube) stay on most of teh time unless away for extended periods. Same with BC c5i Class D integrated I have. Bel Canto actually recommends this I believe.
The devil is always in the details and usually varies case by case.
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Leaving tube equipment on 24/7 likely varies among numerous components. The builder of my Line Stage told me that I could run it 24/7 without any problems. Just out of habit I turn it off once done listening for the day.
Charles, |
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FYI; in case you missed it.
Here we go again: "The BRAND NEW Synergistic Research UEF Black Duplex uses the same technology as Synergistic's world class SR Black Quantum Fuses".
I'd be interested in hearing from anyone that purchases one. |
All of my amplifiers are tube amps. I found the "downside" that mapman stated was surpassed with "upside benefits" when each tube amplifier had 150 hours of on time with a Synergistic Research Black fuse in place.
Yes the sonic improvement was worth putting 150 hours on the KR PX-25 tubes , the Elrog 845 tubes, and the now unobtainium Valvo 6SL7gt Hamburg 1959 tube!
tzh21z
Listen closely to your system at 6:00 pm this Sunday. I believe you will have a most enjoyable listening session.
To all reading this. If you wonder is there any possible way I can enhance the enjoyment of listening to the music I love- audition a Synergistic Research Black fuse. If you know there is no possible way to improve the listening enjoyment of your music- turn off the computer and turn on the music!
Tonight Mozart chamber music. This past Monday, Beethoven piano sonatas live in a room that holds a maximum of 100 people. I would say a pretty good reference point.
David Pritchard |
It is worth noting that leaving tube gear in general on has a downside compared to SS. Although some SS amps do consume considerable power when idle. The class d amps I use do not so I leave them on however the manual also has warnings to users about replacing fuses voiding warranties and such.
These things do matter and are worth pointing out don't you think? |
I am listening to tiger okoshi. Never sounded like this before. Getting a littles better. Now is a little bass shy. Breaking in |
Mapman,
In my experience I'd recommend a range of 70-100 hours for sufficient burn in time to judge their worth. With the exception of a tube power amplifier just about everything else can be left on 24/7 so that range can achieved in only 3 or 4 days. I guess I don't understand why something so simple is being made complicated. Audition the fuses with adequate burn in and then you make a decision. Keep them or return them. As this thread has demonstrated most users have found that the fuses were indeed an asset to their audio systems. A few had alternative results as would be expected with any product. It's wonderful to find a reasonably priced audio tweak that's generated such an overwhelming % of happy listeners and shared on audiogon.
Charles, |
tzh21y ....
That edginess you're hearing is typical of a newly installed Black fuse. It gradually goes away, and as Richard said, opens up into a very positive experience. Its quite remarkable really. |
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So if I come around and become a true believer do I get to use the true believer bathroom?
Skeptics john is open to all....
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tzh21y: Excellent initial description of a Synergistic Research Black fuse sonic change. The fuse needs about 100 to 200 hours to fully settle in. However in My Marantz I heard positive trends at 24 hours of playing time. Then a gradual more relaxed and open sound. I was very happy at the end of two weeks. We are fortunate that the Marantz SA11-S2 SACD player has a replaceable power fuse. The SA11-S1 has a non replaceable fuse. Congratulations on getting the player's lid off - it is a challenge to remove.
David Pritchard |
I am open to either possibility. In fact its on record several times in this thread alone I believe where I’ve said I have no doubt a fuse CAN make a difference.
Its the rah rah mentality and attempts to silence dissenters that I disapprove of. Especially since the most trusted technical people on this site are at a loss to explain what people hear.
That does not discount what people hear. It just means that the book is still open in terms of understanding things.
Directionality is another issue.
So rah rah is fine by those who have realized value but it is clearly not a lock that others will. Especially if a long burn in is truly required and return period is 30 days. That’s a losing combination for sure that many could face. i think it was a skeptic who pointed that out earlier.
Shunning dissenters is a sure way to skew the results that others might look to for guidance.
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I really like a balanced discussions, but when certain posters (not you mapman) start insulting members by suggesting that there's something nefarious going on with the tons of positive reviews, its time to call their BS out. I won't stand for being called a "shill," or anything else that might be crooked. Everything positive I've said about the SR fuses is nothing but the truth. I've heard the positive results in my system, other folk's systems and my friends have heard the results in my system as well.
Rah-Rah on lads, Rah-Rah on ... :-) |
Abnerjack,
If you've been following this thread you must be aware that this forum has been open to all viewpoints. Granted the vast majority of posts here are very positive but that's due to the users satisfying results. There's has been no arm twisting for conformity. Almarg, Mapman and others have freely expressed their opinions here without being attacked.
The proposition for these fuses is really simple if someone is interested. Buy them with the knowledge they can be returned if you are underwhelmed by their contributions. |
Well, after 45 minutes of listening I am getting listening fatigue, very up front sounding more bassnthan stock. I do not like the listening fatigue. Hopefully they start to get less bright and more relaxed. I guess they take time to burn in |
I just installed the black in the sa11 s2. Impressive. Already much better than the stock. Wow |
mapman said:
"I suspect there are many others out there either sitting on the fence or
waiting to be convinced who would appreciate a balanced discussion."
I agree with you mapman. I have all my components in place and am now looking at the various add-ons like cables, interconnects, etc., and would look forward to the more balanced discussion as well. Maybe we could start an independent third party thread for those who are open to either possibility.
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Hello Mapman,
I think you miss my point. It isn't a case of rah rah (not sure why you'd characterize it this way). I definitely have no issue with open discussion and have said so several times. After awhile redundancy sets in. That's why the alternative thread concerning the fuses is an effective outlet for those such as you. You have plenty of company there and that's good as far as I am concerned.
Many people here have reported sucessful and very gratifying outcomes and certainly that includes my experience with the SR Black fuses. We all understand and appreciate your impression and commentary but why the need to repeatedly state it on this particular thread? We clearly get your point. So IMO the availability of the two opposing fuse threads each address the different perspectives.
I don't post repeatedly on the other thread extolling the benefits of the Black fuses, what would be the point in doing so? Minds are made up over there regarding their virtues and that's fine with me. I see no need for endless squabbling and the inevitable name calling. Two separate but interesting threads is the better route.
Charles, |
I suspect there are many others out there either sitting on the fence or waiting to be convinced who would appreciate a balanced discussion.
But nothing wrong with a good old fashioned rah rah thread either if that’s what one is looking for.
Hey Fox News and CNN each get to put their own spin on things uninhibited for teh most part and draw good ratings so why not fuse threads.
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