Here is how my Amp shootout has gone over the last few weeks with the Tektons. I brought in an Odyssey Candela Pre and Kismet power with all upgrades available. I brought in the newest LTA offerings. The MZ2 and the ZOTL 10 Mark2 also fully loaded, and the Lyngdorf 2170 on the recommendation of Kenny (kdude66) and due to Bill (grannyring) comments on it. Everything was dutifully broken-in.
First, the Odyssey was a total mistake. Both on a customer service and performance basis. I don't want to sling too much mud, but for me, it was a really bad choice to even call them. If you would like the gory details, PM me please.
Next, dealing with Mark at LTA was just the opposite. Customer service was over the top. The units were well made and just cool looking. I really don't like the "light bulb farm" look of most tube amps, nor the sound coloration. The LTA had neither of those characteristics. Plus Teejay seems to love them too, so I chose them to represent the Tubular faction. In testing I can't understand how anyone could listen to just the one watt of the MZ2 in a reasonable size room unless you listening to camber music or something like acoustic guitar or piano. The dynamics on anything else just isn't there for me. But, that's just me. Now with the ZOTL 10 inline, it is a totally different story. Even with just 10-12 watts the difference was dramatic. Very clean, detailed and dynamic with the Tektons. I wholeheartedly recommend anyone "amp fishing" to give LTA a listen. Unlike Odyssey, Mark made his product trials very painless. Just do it.
But alas, the winner was the Lyngdorf. It was just a step better than the LTA. Wendy and I went through extensive blind testing. This included the LTA vs the Lyngdorf with both a roomperfect corrected output as well as an uncorrected mode against the LTA. It also included both Digital input and Vinyl. Consistantly over many types of music the LTA was always third, the room corrected 2170 was generally second and the uncorrected 2170 was most often first. I would have bet the LTA would have come out on top with the analog/vinyl input, but even with the Lyngdorf doing an A/D conversion, and the LTA path being all analog, the Lyngdorf sounded better by a similar margin as with the Digital input.
I was surprised by the Lyngdorf. I never gave much credence to Class D, but in my room, in my chair, both my wife and I preferred the Lyngdorf. And I honestly was rooting for the LTA since it is much cooler looking than the 2170, which is closer to the excitement level of a clock radio. Calling Mark to let him know the LTA stuff was coming back was really tough too. Again, if I hadn't heard the 2170, I would have been totally please with the LTA performance. But side by side, the Lyngdorf is noticeably better sounding. The DIs really do reflect what's in front of them. They seem to love the 2170.
This is my opinion, take if for what it's worth. It and $5 will get you half a cup of bad coffee at Starbucks. I don't carry a lot of clout in this forum, don't claim to be an expert, haven't owned every piece of equipment ever made. I hesitated for a long time posting anything because this thread is getting very testy at times. But I thought I could open some minds to other possibilities. And Kenny and Bill are also huge fans of the product. Those two carry a bit of clout in my book, and I appreciate them opening my mind to other possibilities. Very much so.
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@grannyring awesome information. Thanks for sharing!!
On the Lyngdorf questions...
In my room, the 2170 sounds better corrected than uncorrected. But not by a lot. It may be that my room is pretty good anyway. This admission was hard for Wendy because she’s never liked any previous room/speaker correction. But in blind testing, she mostly chose the corrected but did go with uncorrected a couple of times. But never chose the LTA. And a couple of notes on the LTA comparison. At higher volume and higher dynamic music, the LTA fell way behind the 2170. Perhaps it was pushing the limits of its 12 watts. At one point with one of her favorite songs at higher volume Wendy said "I don’t know what that one is, but it has to go back". On low volume the 2170 was also much better. I was very surprised. Thought that would be where the LTA would shine. But the 2170 kept all it’s detail on the high end and even more so, the dynamics and tight bass on the low end. This effect was amplified in the room correction mode but was also true when uncorrected. Only with less dynamic music, and in the middle volume range, without the 2170 correction, did the LTA come close. Even then, it was never chosen.
I did not know about the ZOTL 15. The 40 was out of my price range. I went with Mark’s recommendation on the amp configuration and was assured it would not be lacking for what I was intending with the DIs. I’ll also add I spoke to Kenny a couple of times, who owns a 40 and the 2170 and he told me the higher wattage wouldn’t help.
On the listening impression question... I could line up a number of often used adjectives here, but really it came down to the 2170 just acted like a wire with gain. I could hear details I couldn’t hear with the others. Everything sounded very natural. I know, not normally a class D trait! It didn’t sound "digital" at all. I can, and have, listened to it for hours and it wasn’t fatiguing. And it sounded detailed and dynamic at even low levels. That just blew me away. And this was consistent with both Digital and Analog inputs.
Now, when I first got it with no hours on it, it was awful. I was questioning Kenny’s take on it for a bit there. But after a couple of days of burn-in, it came into it’s own. If you hear it in a store, you’re cheating yourself.
Complaints? It looks like a clock radio and the LTA stuff would be a conversation piece in comparison. You have to turn the volume knob A LOT to effect change. I’ve learned to just spin it now or use the remote. There is no rack-mount provision. You have to go through dealers. It’s made in Denmark. That’s really all I can come up with.
Finally, I was not expecting this result. The only reason I tried it was due to Kenny’s and Bill’s feedback on it. But I’m certainly glad I did. For me, in my room, and my listening habits, it just works. I certainly don’t think that will be true for everyone.
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Corelli, the transducer centers are a 1.5ft from the side walls and 2.5ft from the rear wall. I didn't move them durning testing because I'm not going to move them when I listen. So that would be pointless. They are positioned in front of corner Bass traps that extend from just off the floor, almost to the ceiling. The rear wall is also treated with flat panels below the HT screen and stop about 4ft off the floor with the screen above that level. I also have bass traps in the rear room corners and additional absorption panels at most reflection points on the side walls. I actually had more absorption panels at one point, but with experimentation discovered imaging and depth was better with some of them removed. Evolvist heard the DIs in my room, but later posted he hadn’t hear the DIs in a treated room. All I can assume is he wasn’t impressed with my sound absorption efforts and didn’t feel it was a good sample. Hey, I do what I can. It sounds pretty good to me and looks good on a graph. Imaging is great with the correction on or off and not a real noticeable difference in the low end. Mostly it seems to improve the image depth placement and adds a bit of detail in the mids and highs. The big thing is, it made a huge difference when I tested it with my B&W 804s. It was like night/day on them and brought them much closer to the sound of the DIs. It was pretty impressive. I guess it makes sense that the better the speaker, the less correction it needs. And the worse the speaker, the more of a change you’ll notice.
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@david_ten I am actually running it in the room correction/focus mode all of the time. It sounds better corrected. In addition, you can have two speaker correction files stored. I have one file for the DIs alone, and another for the DIs with my subwoofer on line. But all testing was done without the subwoofer. The 2170 really does a good job incorporating the sub with the mains using it’s correction. Something that was going to be difficult to do with the LTA or even the Odyssey without throwing something else with a crossover function into the signal path.
And as far as groups embracing different technologies... I really didn't care. I just picked the one that sounded the best to my wife and me. If wanted to pick "cool" I'd have gone with the LTA. If I wanted to pick "big and impressive" I would have picked the Odyssey stuff. But I picked the totally unimpressive class D clock radio instead. But again, that's just me. I am not in any way saying there is anything wrong with the other technologies. If you like it and enjoy it, and don't think what I chose is the best, that is absolutely all right. Keep an open mind and follow your ears.
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My room is a HT with bass traps and some absorption on the front wall. I put additional panels in the room in "traditional" locations. First reflections, etc. But it worked better without them. As stated earlier, my DIs are near the corners in front of bass traps. All this done prior to testing the Lyngdorf. The room is rectangular with a sloping, peaked ceiling and a ceiling drop at the rear where the projector is mounted.
Lyngdorf actually recommends you place your speakers in corners and the sub centered against the front wall and then use RoomPerfect to make it work. Perfect for me with my HT setup.
My main source is my PC Music server feeding USB to the 2170 optional USB module. The signal path is deathly quiet. The LTA was almost as quiet. The Odyssey was noisy as hell in comparison to either of those. I was told that was normal for their products. Even my Denon HT Receiver made less noise than the Odyssey stuff.
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evolvist, of course you're welcome to come by. I got the impression you had auditioned the Lyngdorf and didn't like it. But if you want to hear it with the DIs, that's great. I also have absorption panels we can play with in the room if you want to do that. I don't think we could do the ceiling would need some velcro up there :-) is going to happen, but floor/walls would be no problem.
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@lpretiring I don't feel there is too much low end with no correction. But I was not using correction even before the Lyngdorf in stereo mode. So that wouldn't be a change. The Lyngdorf isn't noticeably changing the level low end when correcting either. My assumption is that it seems to "think" it's pretty close. But we all have our preferred room curve. Corrected or uncorrected the low end is much tighter and well defined now. It seems to control the subs better.
evolvist, thanks for the kind words. I'm pretty sure you'll see a definite improvement when you hear the Lyngdorf vs the old front end.
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@david_ten Certainly I would welcome a visit. It would be best to communicate by Email. Could you PM me an email address?
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@audioarchon
If this is right, essentially, the speakers would be corner loaded. In
such a setup I believe that you preferred a class D amp over a tube amp.
I do realize tube amps are less forgiving and much more particular in their set-up requirements. That said, members with better environments have sold-off all of their tube equipment after purchasing a class D amp. I can also assure you, the difference in the sound was significant enough where I sincerely believe, even with a perfect room, and all the stars aligned for the tube amp, I would have still chosen the class D. It sounded better with no correction. And if your point is that the class D controls the transducers better than a tube amp, which allows it more flexibility, then my point is made. |
Just got a call from Tekton. My Ulfs are about to ship! Which is great since they'll be here and somewhat broken in when the family is here over Thanksgiving. Very good news today.
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Kenny said it looks like the Elves are bringing the Ulfs. :-)
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The speaker’s ability to hold it all together when played very loudly is
stunning. Just a fun and engaging speaker all at the same time.
They
are also fully engaging at very low volume. My current rig does
explosive dynamics and engaging, low level listening with equal
proficiency.
@grannyring Bill, I've experienced the same thing. Especially how the 2170 retains all of it's detail and dynamics at low volume. It's almost eerie. Or any volume for that matter. I'm sure your speaker mods contribute to that, but I'm experiencing the same thing with my unmodded DIs. I'll also add this was not a characteristic I experienced with either the LTA or Odyssey products. The tube experience for me was... it sounded it's best in the middle of it's output capabilities. It wouldn't support the dynamics at lower volume. And at anything close to it's output limits it would display distortion. And with 10 watts you get close to that max output pretty quickly. But I do understand many people like the sound of the tube distortion/"warmness". I'm just in that camp. |
@nitrobob I use two 6466 Precison Turbo "mufflers" on my Mustang. Highly recommended. Nice to see another NHRA License holder on the thread.
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The Ulfs are in the house! Well... they are in the garage at any rate. Now I need to get two, 200# 83" tall boxes though a 6.5ft door, across the house, up a 20ft high circular stairway, up a couple more steps in the upstairs gameroom entrance, through the 6.5ft theater door, around the HT seats, and down two more steps in the Theater. Then unbox them. All without damaging them, the house, or most importantly, any humans. It would be nice to know which side of the box is the front where the transducers are so we don't lean it on that side. That isn't marked and the box is square. So I can't even tell which are the sides. But they are boxed similarly to the DIs. Those were very well protected so I'm not too concerned. And Eric/Karma also sent some specific unboxing instructions similar to what comes with the DIs. Help is on the way tonight.
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bullitt, it must be painful looking at those boxes without being able to
move them until tonight. Looking forward to hearing you impressions of
those beasts. Steve McQueen would be proud of such speakers!
Ulfs are in the garage and they can't get out! They are indeed going into "Bullitt Theater". Large Bullitt poster in there too. My daughter actually found a french one just to be different. I still have my DIs too. Eric actually wanted me to do a comparison before I sent the DIs back to him. I need to get some hours on the Ulfs first though. Such drudgery! But some sacrifices must be suffered. |
@mac48025 The car in the movie was Dark Highland Green. When they released the first Bullitt Edition Mustang in 2001 they offered it in the original DHG, a medium blue and black. Mine is black because dark green ranks just ahead any shade of yellow as my least favorite color. I still enjoy the movie. The part fits Steve's real-life, anti-social, don't bug me, personality perfectly. Sgt. Friday he wasn't.
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I auditioned the MZ2 with the standard PS and the 10 with the new. upgraded power supply. They were impressive. Thing is, you can buy the upgraded PS for the MZ2 later for what not much more than the upgrade costs initially. So I was going to buy the standard one and upgrade later if I felt so inclined. Then you basically have a spare PS. Call and talk to Mark if you haven’t done so. I’m sure he can give you some insight and is a wealth of information, and fun to talk to anyway. Plus it looks like they are on sale right now.
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I've figured out how to make the DIs look small. Put an Ulf next to it!
Finally got them upstairs last night and in break-in mode. So far, I'm very impressed.
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@lmswjm I have a friend who’s a weight lifter. Not kidding. Really is. We strapped the box to my heavy duty hand truck. He pulled the hand truck up the stairs a step at a time and I lifted from the bottom. Still wasn’t an easy task. He got to pick the first music to christen them. I think he was more excited to hear them than I was.
@mac48025 I have some pictures of the Ulfs, the DIs and my B&W 804s in the room. I would have posted them already but the Agon forum software is not user friendly for posting anything but words. I think the 1990s wants it’s software back! I’ll also post my impressions after break-in and living with them for a bit. I’m interested in an A/B with the DIs myself. Hopefully Eric will allow me to keep the DIs for a couple more weeks. Plus my wife is wanting them, and their associated boxes, out of the house before the family arrives for Christmas. I’ll get to it though. All said, I still think the DIs are awesome. Especially for $3K.
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Nitrobob, the Ulfs will do what you want and then some. But Eric developed 1812s specifically to reproduce clean concert level output if you want to go for the ultimate. Hope you have some room in your room!
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@nitrobob, I have a pair of B&W 804s in the same room as the DIs originally and now the Ulfs. After reading all the fluff-up on the DIs on another site, I waved the BS flag on all the folks who were trashing the speaker and had never been in the same room with them. So, not to be them, I purchased a pair of DI with the upgrades to A/B with my long loved 804s. To my surprise, the DIs displaced the 804s handily. Just a comment on what I found with my Tekton/B&W comparison. That doesn't mean you won't like the 7 series. But I do know in the clean/loud mode you seek, I can't imagine you thinking the 7s will do a better job. But I also couldn't imagine the DIs displacing my 804s either!
And I'm also a drag racer. Not nitromethane, but twin turbos. If you're running nitro, you must really be into the "hobby"!!
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Nice!! Car flies. People think Audiophiling is expensive? My wife refers to mine as the black hole in the garage into which we pour money. But she actually enjoys it and is always there with me as pit crew. This is a video of my street legal 2001 Bullitt Edition Mustang. I don't really compete with it. I just go to open event, T&Ts etc and have fun. I was wishing the BendPak I have in the garage was in the house when we were trying to get the Ulfs upstairs! https://youtu.be/WekWPfvbtGw |
Oh, and if you have a Hauler, you really are into the money. I am the guy on the cheap with the open trailer behind the F250PSD.
Also, Eric was also pretty heavily into drag racing one time. When/if you talk to him again, ask him about it if you two haven't discussed it already. He was a Plymouth guy if my memory serves me correctly.
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mac48025 Subwoofers? Why? Those cars make some of the most beautiful music known to man. LOL 1400 wheel HP at WOT and twin turbos. It's quite the crescendo.
But I did compete in IASCA car sound competition with out 1996 Impala SS. Strangely enough, it had an all digital front end using Alpine components. Rare in those days. So now with the Lyngdorf my home audio finally caught up with my 1996 car audio system. :-)
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Oh, and Eric ALSO did the car audio thing. I think his hobby is collecting hobbies too.
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I had a great customer service experience with LTA also. Awesome products, but we chose the Lyngdorf over all other gear we tested, including the LTA products. But dealing with them was an absolute pleasure. I actually felt guilty sending the hardware back. Just the opposite of my experience with Odyssey. If it weren't for the exceptional capabilities of the Lyngdorf, I would still have the LTA on the front end. I may actually buy LTA in the future just for variety sake. The ZOTL transformer-less design is really in a class of it's own for tube amps.
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My DI story from when I received them a couple of weeks ago. I posted this in another forum's thread where there were many non-owner nay-sayers. Which expains some edginess in my revuew. That attitude about the product was, in fact, what inspired me to test this product in person. To the nay-sayers, thank you! I love the product and I'm considering an upgrade to the SE version.
Compared to the signal paths described by others in this threat, I am certainly an equipment hacker. But even with my "junk" holding them back. I really enjoy the DIs.
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Purchased the DIs under duress. My wife has always loved my 804s
B&Ws and her approval was... "if you buy them, save the boxes. They are likely going back." Then
my 28 year old daughter weighed in with,
"You aren't seriously thinking about replacing those speakers are
you?". Sooooo, I ordered them late Monday with the upgrade package. They
arrived late Friday. They were well packed and the are solid (read as
HEAVY). The finish is very good. They fit nicely next to my screen and
in front of the corner bass traps. Basically black on the black traps so
they disappear in the room. All good.
Skipping to the trial by fire. After a couple of hours of break-in my daughter, visiting for mothers day, and my wife appear in the HT door with hate in
their eyes. (this is where the haters are going to state this is not a
scientific test and these people are unqualified to make an assessment.
Please stop reading now. Thank you!) Set up with both speakers
unequalized in any way, I feed some familiar songs from my music server
through my ifi DAC to my Denon 4520. I then switched to my Thorens/AT440
for a bit. At this point my wife hasn't walked out of the room. A good
sign for the DIs. My daughter states to
my surprise and my wife's horror, "Those are the best sounding speakers
I've ever heard. It sounds like the lead is standing right there and I
can pick out things I haven't heard before". My wife just knew she had
her back covered with my daughter and
here she's been hit by friendly fire. I stayed VERY quiet. So the wifer
is now looking for mud to sling, and she actually finds some. The DIs
are not as bright as the well know bright 804s and she interprets that
as a lack of clarity in the upper end sound of the DIs. We did some A-B
stuff between the sets and it was noticeable that the curves/voices were
quite different. Of course we have the room tuned for the 804s
effectively eliminating their bright tendencies, that I feel is their
only character flaw.
So I did some measuring and EQing with the DI's over the last couple of
days and basically matched the DIs with the B&Ws freq curve. Brought
the wife in on a blind AB test and she picked the DIs. There you go. I
REALLY had my doubts going in. My impression is, the high end was where
she wanted it and it was totally clear. The DIs brought out some
midrange tonal deficits I never knew the 804s had. The DIs just sounded
more natural. And it looks like it may be time to re-analyze the room
acoustics. It really is very dead in there. That I knew. I could be
wrong though. It may be we're just use to the brightness. But really
flat frequency curves don't sound good. That's why we add room curves.
Right? But I have some experimenting to do.
Other interesting facts... to equalize the speakers output I had to add
8db to the B&Ws. And I thought the 804s were efficient. Also, the
B&Ws really needed a sub. The DIs absolutely do not. The low in is
all there. Very tight and very defined. The speaker is very natural
sounding. The imaging is better than the 804s which is significant in my
opinion. I would like to hear it with a tube amp and some good vinyl.
You certainly don't need a lot to push it.
But the other end of the spectrum was even more dramatic. We watched a
couple of movies with these. They are very dynamic. In fact I forgot to
re-incorporate the sub in the system so we watched the first movie with
the DIs handling the LFE too. And didn't notice it. I'm sure it was down
some but it wasn't anything dramatic for sure. If you buy these for
nothing else, use them in your HT. But after integrating the Sub at 80hz, the overall dynamics were almost overwhelming.
Bottom line, they aren't going back. They are superior to my much loved
804s. They won over my two most critical, and in this case, most
negative reviewers. They perform from LP playback to LFE chest beating
modes. I don't care if they are made out of old beer cans and bailing
wire crossovers. They work in my system and are a great value with
uncompromising results. And it's the results that count in my book. If
all you have is $3K for speakers, buy these. And if you think there are
some haters on this thread that are hard to convince, you haven't met my
girls!
Bob
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Vitop, I’ve only compared to my 804s B&Ws. No experience with the Persona, The Wilsons and the Legacy Aeris.
I think you will be very satisfied with the DI in HT duty. Just FYI, I am actually in Cypress so if you want to hear them in that environment, let me know. I thought somewhere you mentioned you were in Houston. I have a dedicated HT but not the Atmos configuration. Just a measly 7.1 with B&W DS3 surrounds and a DIY sub.
Thanks for the warm welcome group! Sorry for the record length first post.
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I've never had less that a 7.1 since we built the house with the HT so I really can't say if there is a huge difference with the 5.1. Maybe I'll shut down the rears and see. But my opinion is, at least in my environment, that 7.1 is enough and have never felt the need to go past that. But I also have never heard an Atmos system. So my opinion is lacking an important comparison. Maybe a good reason NOT to hear one and feel the need for 4-5 more speakers!
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On the 4/8 ohm question, in conversations with Eric, he REALLY dislikes the idea of 8 ohm. His stance is, old technology and if you have an amp that requires it, you should replace it. He says his 4 ohm should be fine with any well designed tube amp.
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I ordered an upgrade set of the Double Impact SE today with a center channel. 4-6 weeks to ship Eric tells me. I'll post a review when I get them sorted out. I believe I'll have one of the first sets. At this point I'm trying to imagine how they could sound significantly better than the DIs I have now. In the meantime I have two phono pre-amps coming. The pro-ject Tube Box and the Emotiva SP-1. Going to compare tube vs SS. I also realize I need to upgrade my Denon 4520 too. Looking at Outlaw SS. That's going to be expensive for me, but I know that's the weak link in my signal chain right now with my Denon 4520
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I am returning the DIs I have now for a new set of DI SE. As I understand they are totally different hardware. So I assume it wouldn't be possible to retrofit an existing DI set. Want to buy my old set? Not even a fingerprint on them and Eric may make you a deal not to have them returned. Standard black finish with the upgrade option. Just a thought for anyone out there.
On the center channel... Eric actually pushed me toward the 3 tweet center channel. He said the 7 was really overkill for most systems. I guess if you have a really large room it could be required and he did say most users were ordering the 7 without consulting him. He didn't think they were generally required. Mine is a 14w x 20d x 12h room with 8 HT seats. He also told me not to do the upgrade version either, despite the fact my DIs were the upgrade type. He said I wouldn't have a problem with the voicing between the two.
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david_ten I have no more information than what Eric posted earlier copied below. All I can add is he is definitely moving forward with them. I was given 4-6 weeks to ship at this point.
I currently have the DI with the upgrade package. The SEs are suppose to use superior components to even those. I'm going to call Eric tomorrow to sort out some things on center channel. I'll see what information he allows me then. I am also considering an Enzo 2.7 as a center channel. I have 42" below my screen frame so the Enzo would fit and have the tweeters as high as possible since they are at the top of that model. But Eric may recommend a center with the same components as the SE pieces or just tell me to stick with the DI 3-tweeter unit if voicing is similar. I never use the center for music anyway. It isn't that critical in my thinking.
" AS of NOW I am excited to announce the production of an extreme
version of the Double Impact. I'll call it the 'Double Impact SE'
(special edition) but it's not set in stone. This model is an expression
of the cost no object approach. The DI SE is not the same speaker nor
does it use the same parts. This model will be available through
exclusive high-end hi-fi dealers with the price set to $6K-$10K per
pair.
"
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Bleachers has a new release called "Gone Now". I doubt it fits many folks taste on this thread (my daughter claims I'm 60 going on 14) but tracks 5 and 6 will totally expose the dynamics and imaging of DIs. I am enthralled. Now I do have a DIY sealed sub with opposing 15s powered by two crown amps that help a LOT below 80hz. But the DIs by themselves carry that floor when I loose them to the task. Again, not everyone's music, but worth a listen IMHO if you just want to crank it up and have some fun.
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The longer this thread goes, the more unworthy I feel to own the DIs with my crummy signal path and lousy taste in music. My 28 year old daughter was here all weekend and continues to enjoy the DIs. We enjoyed a few hours listening and I'm pretty sure the closest to Classical or Jazz we got was "Yes". Fun to have the family enjoy your hobby with you.
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david_ten I can't leave well enough alone. Told my daughter I was upgrading to the SE version and she said they BETTER sound as good as these! I assured her she would again get an A/B audition and I could return either set. No pressure!
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@david_ten actuallly Kathryn did asked what I was going to do with the 804s the DIs displaced. But mom wasn't letting those leave the house. They displaced some floor standing 6 series B&Ws I had in the family room. The 804s are very nice looking, as well as sounding great IMHO so that was a win for the wife. Kathryn is likely to "inherit" the 6 series for the new house they are building. I need some good sound when I visit over there too! Win, win, win.
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As far as presentation with my DIs in my room, the lunatic in Dark Side of the Moon is standing behind your left shoulder. I've startled a couple of people with that effect. And that's driving them with a SS Receiver. If the imaging of the Ulfs surpasses that, it must be impressive. This effect and just the general depth/width/definition of the sound field was never as good as this with my B&W 804s. And they are know to be pretty good in that aspect. I am really looking forward to my DI SE when Eric gets to them.
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I would like to upgrade several pieces in front of my DIs. I'd like advice on a SS 2-Ch power amp. I don't want to invest in the level described in the amps discussed here. I have a Denon 4520 Receiver now and will be investing in an Atmos Pre-Pro in the future, but would like to buy a good power amp strictly for the DIs first. My research brought me to the PS Audio Stellar S300 http://www.psaudio.com/products/stellar-s300-power-amplifier/ Comments on that choice? Any other recommendations for a SS unit for around $1500? If there is a tube or Hybrid that would work for similar price that would keep-up in a HT application, I'd consider that too, but I doubt there is anything that cheap. If this price bracket is so low on the group's radar as to not be a good question, just ignore it. But any advice would be appreciated. |
Great info group. Thanks! I have much research to do.
It will be 50/50 Audio/HT. I am considering the new Outlaw Atmos preamp that is suppose to be available this year. I also looked at the Emotiva XMC-1 but have heard they've had troubles with some of their offerings. Marantz 7703 or maybe a used/refurbed 8802 are under consideration too but the Outlaw seems to have a good reputation and they are stating a target of $1200 for their Atmos pre/pro so that seems attractive.
Sources are an Oppo 103 for BR, (will go with a 203 in the future) An HTPC FLAC lossless through an IFI Micro DSD DAC for digital music and a Thorens TD-165 with an AT-440. for analog.
And here is the TMI paragraph if you would like to know more about my situation. My HT rack is in the rear of the room My speaker cables to the DIs presently are over 60ft! I want to put the amp for the DIs in the front with them and feed it with balanced cables from the Pre/Pro to shorten the speaker cables to only 6ft. So I want a 2 (or 3 for center) channel amp in the front and the remainder in the back with the pre-pro. So I can't just have a single 7 or 11 (atmos) channel amp in the rear. That complicates things for me. I need to sort through some of these suggestions. The answer may be there. With Emotiva's XPA G3 amp, I feel like I'm wasting a lot only putting two power cards in that chassis designed for 7. Maybe that's just a quirk for me though. Are Marantz amps or pre/pros worth a darn? Or are they just in the same class as my current Denon sonically? Thanks again for suggestions.
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@grannyring that deal definitely has my attention. It's within driving distance too.
@charles1dad where the heck can I find find pricing on First Watt without having to stagger into a brick and mortar and arm wrestle sales people?
@teajay I wish that list was in my price range! I just can't justify that investment.
@corelli Marantz separates are still on the list as far as I'm concerned. Especially the pre/pro. I put Emotiva and Outlaw in the same general bracket and all seem like they have good reputations with Emotiva having some product offering hick-ups that seemed to last a bit long.
@lancelock I was almost ready to order the JOB but it only doesn't have balanced inputs. I don't think a 50ft RCA cable is a good idea. That does sound like an excellent piece though reading the reviews.
@mac48025 the 3-Channel Odyssey Stratos HT-3
Would allow me to power the center channel up-front too. Can you tell me more of your Odyssey experience? Never heard of them.
@stfoth, I hear ya man. At this point it isn't in the cards or budget. I'm going to do the best I can with an HT system that does stereo well.
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I've always heard for long runs it is much better to go with the balanced. I don't want to trade one problem for another. But thanks for the heads-up!
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I love the Pass but 12 years is a bit long in the tooth. I am very focused on the Odyssey offerings at this point but nothing is being ruled-out.
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@almarg Thanks for that information. Learned something new today. I will likely invest in that no matter which way I go with the amp. You are thinking it would be cleaner to input any amp RCA from the Jenson piece? And are you sure the transformer won't degrade the signal? I tend to lean toward a "less is better", minimalist view of a signal path. Don't throw anything in that isn't really needed because it's likely to degrade the signal. But if you feel this will allow a cleaner signal to reach the amp, and it will replace lesser circuitry in the amp, then it certainly makes sense and really isn't adding anything since it eliminates a circuit within the amp itself. This then puts the JOB amp back into play for me too. I wish JOB didn't have a Soup Nazi return policy to allow an in-home trial. That may actually push me to the Odyssey offering instead.
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333jeffrey Last night I put on the Lorde release through the DIs crossed at 80hz to my DIY dual opposed 15" sealed sub. I'm pretty sure there is the 20-20K range on every one of her songs. It was amazing without even pushing those speakers. -10dB on the volume knob of my Denon 4520. If you like concert level listening, you'll likely love these. I can only imagine the Ulfs or heaven forbid the 1812s in that mode.
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@giantsalami if I could figure out how to do PMs on this site, I would like to discuss the Kismets if you are indeed thinking of selling them.
I'm talking with Klause now about the Stereo Kismet Reference. I'm also considering the Kismet tube pre-amp. It has an HT Pass-Through input so I could have the best of both worlds in that configuration. The problem then becomes how to integrate the sub in 2-channel mode and still have it available for LFE for the HT. That may be the deal breaker for that scenario.
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Odyssey custom Kismet Referrence stereo amp and tube pre-amp on order. Thanks for the input and recommendations folks. This just seemed like the right thing for what I want to accomplish.
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@mofojo That sounds very good. Glad to hear that. He apparently is a big Tekton fan. He is doing quite a bit of customization to both the pre and power amp plus the full upgrade packages on both. He is also provisioning a third output from his Pre to integrate my sub. So I can put the Pre in an HT mode and it becomes passive to my HT amp while watching movies. If it all works as he says, it should be the best of both worlds. A 2-channel discrete system embedded in a 7.1 HT system.
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Stfoth the answer is, sort-of. I am over with the Preamp included, but the original number was for the Power Amp, only. But Klaus does give better than advertised pricing if you call and go through your application/needs with him and buy a package deal. So my overall budget is intact because the if new preamp configuration works, I don't have to replace my Denon. I can keep the Denon for HT and that money went to the lesser cost Preamp and the more expensive power amp in the package. So basically, I'm still within my overall budget for the system. That clear as mud?
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