This is a different perspective that I have offered on this and other threads. One of the great advantages to me of the original DIs (w upgrade) is that they contain defined speaker types that can be purchased directly on the open market. I have done this and rest comfortably knowing that any replacement part is as close as the garage. So I would not have any interest in the upgraded SE model regardless of any sonic advantages. Those Thiel owners complaining of a lack of replacement transducers on this site illustrate the innate problem with custom speakers available only from the maker.
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This is, truly, an exceptional thread and it is buoyed by the quality of the regular contributors and the revolutionary nature of the DI.
This is addressed to Grannyring and any others with exposure to both class A and class D amps. Have recently had the experience of trying out a Nord Stereo UP Class D amp on the recommendation of several on this and other threads.
This was my experience. Initially, the Nord amp sounded just like a Yamaha receiver I have -- somewhat accurate but sterile and uninteresting. As it broke in, it became better in reproducing acoustical ensembles but still not of a very high quality. After shifting over to another OpAmp, the Nord did sound OK on orchestral feeds and I was planning on keeping the component.
Then, the left channel died and the unit was returned to Colin -- who did the professional thing and refunded the entire purchase amount. So, after a week of listening to the DIs solely with a Class D amp, went back to my Emotive mono blocks that have 35 watts of class A that does, of course, cover most of the volume levels with the DIs.
Was shocked at how much better the Class A amp was in two particular areas: 1. Tone weight and 2. vocal soundstage and accuracy. Tone weight was seen in particular with instruments such as the cello where the body and feel of the instrument came across in class A but not in D. Vocals were more prominently actually there and the accuracy of the singer was significantly improved.
With the class D amp, I felt there was a lack of volume and sometimes raised the level very high without achieving the sense of visceral presence.
SO, my question is this: Does the Lyngdorf 2170 accomplish the visceral sense of power lacking in the Nord description above?
AND, Grannyring, had the same experience in May of this year listening to the DIs at very high volume levels with the same sense of delight. Eric mentioned to me the potential danger of ear damage with very high levels and have adjusted my levels accordingly. |
Have any of the DI owners used or upgraded to the GAIA II loudspeaker feet? These are a bit more expensive than the Herbies Threaded Stud Gliders I am currently using, but appear to be more substantial and refined in their design. The Herbies cost around $130 as opposed to the $600 for the GAIA and I am wondering if there is enough additional improvement to justify the cost. |
david_ten: You mean the larger GAIA Is that go for $1200 for 8? Seems like overkill as they support speakers up to 220 lbs and my DIs are only 118. The GAIA III only seem to go up to 70 lbs while the GAIA II are rated at 120. Did you notice a difference in quality with the GAIA Is over the IIs? |
Thanks, all. The Aurios Bearings look interesting and they are about the same price as the GAIA II. Would not spend $1200 on feet but might try the Aurios. The Starsound items look interesting but their descriptive text strikes me as indirect at best. Will probably just stand pat with the Herbies as they have improved the bass and soundstage.. |
Grey9hound et al: So, your assessment is that they offer significant improvement compared to Herbies Threaded Gliders? Noted that they were 3 legged. Any danger of tipping? |
david_ten:
Congrats on your stunning system and the very helpful DI closeup. What is the stand under the Gliders? Is this a Herbies product?
Don't have children (anymore) but do have 5 active cavalier spaniels that will attack anything with teeter possibilities. How do they know? Must be instinctive.
And, did I mention, they love to pee on a sub? Something about those low frequencies... |
Grey9hound: Yes, very helpful and thanks for the effort. See that there are 4-legged options available. Which specific model did you choose? The depth appears to be 14 inches on most and I wonder if that is sufficient for the 17 1/2 DI depth. Do you stick the inverted cone into the bottom of the DI cabinet? |
Thanks, Grey9hound. Dave: five is enough for ten vets; they are not a healthy breed. But, then, there is the lapdog love. Other breeds are amateurs by comparison... |
dlcockrum: I congratulate you on your dog's health and am sad to inform you that Cavalier Spaniels are among the most unhealthy of canine breeds. They are known for their heart, throat, and, especially, neck problems (Syringomyelia). Many of these were caused by the inbreeding necessary to recreate the breed in the early 20th century. If you have 10 healthy Cavs you are among the most fortunate of owners and can enjoy all the plusses with no distractions. I have 3 boys that are mostly healthy and they are a delight. |
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dlcockrum:
Agree with most of your informed description...
...however,
have just had a young female diagnosed with Syringomelia and it is not uncommon in the USA -- roughly 15% of US cavaliers eventually contract this condition. About 95% of Cavaliers have the underlying skull deformity that can or cannot result in the eventual problem.
There are 3 neurological centers in Phoenix devoted significantly to this problem and they make a good deal of money from MRIs. The breeder of the aforementioned female is well known, married to a vet, and claims she has not had another case in 18 years of breeding. She was questioned about this problem extensively before purchase and it still happened.
BTW, the surgical option is laughably bad -- roughly a 40% success rate and frequent recidivism.
AND I echo your comments about sidetracking this thread and will not continue. |
Wondering if anyone had to wait for their DI grills a long time, got used to the sound of the speaker without covers, then got the covers and noticed the sonic change. If so, what were the differences?
Well, am only interested a little, actually...
Am posting to see if I get lucky and this becomes the 4000 post on the thread. Getting close, I see....
...OH and BTW, don't forget to check your DI speaker screws after shipment. They tend to get loose in transit. |
Almarg:
Not sure about the word "noise" in your post. Music at 95db from acoustical instruments is not dangerous at all. Noise, however, can be troublesome as loud as 90 db. Am considering "noise" to be random in nature and not periodic as is music.
Regularly play on a piano at 95 db and it is not at all stressful. When I listen to a sound system at the same level, however, it sounds loud -- and can be stressful if there is any noise (=hiss) or distortion.
Know a number of symphonic musicians who are 65+ years old and they hear fine after playing loud symphonies all their life. They do, of course, worry about their sound exposure and take certain precautions.
I share a number of the views above about the dangers of listening to recorded music at the 105-110db level. Have done DB tests with my audio systems and find this dangerously loud.
The more you listen to very loud audio, the more deadened your hearing becomes and you tend to up the volume to recapture the pleasurable sense of "loud." Take an hour off, instead, and return to the level you were listening at -- you will notice how much louder this is than you earlier had thought. |
General information, please... Am getting ready to make an offer on an Audiogon item and have never done this before. The seller is new to the site and I am wondering how best to arrange for payment. Is there a way for Audiogon to hold the monies until the item arrives? The menu information is not completely clear here. Would appreciate sage advice from those of you who have done this; thanks in advance I apologize for a general question in this thread but do not want to open a new one just for this simple question. |
totalwex: Am using Double Impacts, upgraded, and with REW creating a convolution file (impulse and filters) and importing this into JRiver have a resulting flat room response (meaning, all electronics and room) from +/- 5db from 16 to 30k. This is without any subs. The room is very large and, admittedly, favors bass response. +/- 5db might not sound impressive to spec lovers, but as a final, complete result for the system AND room, it is very good and approaching studio standards (typically around +/- 3db). SOOO, I strongly believe you do not need a sub with the floor standing DIs if you apply a reasonable amount of room correction -- both physical correction (I use wall deadeners behind and between the speakers) and electronic EQ (such as described above). Corelli's advice above concerning HSU subs is worthwhile. I use these in studio and HT setups and they work splendidly. HSU builds a very fine product at a reasonable cost and they reach down to 16hz with authority. This 16 figure is of interest because 32 foot organ stops go down this far and produce a powerful roar for the lowest "C" on the organ pedalboard. |
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Just got a set of Double Impacts and am breaking them in and doing a variety of fine tunings. Have done REW checks on frequency response and find they are perfectly fine here although my living room is not particularly flat. Am finding that the DAC chosen makes a tremendous difference in frequency response, more so than I would have thought. Perhaps this is because of the surrounding electronics? Am getting the best results with a studio device, a RME UFX. But this is only temporary as it does not have wireless remote. For amplification am using Emotiva monoblocks in class A and they sound superb. There is a bewildering number of DACs out there and would like to get one with very accurate balanced outputs around $1k. Has anyone here heard the Chinese Gustard 20? It seems, like the DIs, to hit above its weight. Thanks for the response. |
David: Running REW graphs and using the same mic, converter, amps, and speakers WHEN the DAC is changed, the response is significantly different -- mostly in the midrange. The 3 DACs checked so far include the Sabre 32s in an Oppo 105D, an Emotiva DC10, and the aforementioned RME UFX. Can provide graphs if you are interested. Suggest this might be the result of the analog electonics after the DAC's chip, but this is just a guess. You can, BTW also hear these differences when REW does the sweep. |
Thanks, 333jeffrey. Do either of them have a remote? Would prefer to run the monoblocks directly off the DAC. |
@kristofa: The Cardas upgraded binding posts are copper with a + and - sign to indicate polarity. They tighten nicely with a wrench and hold the speaker cables securely. Being copper, they will always change color over time. Have not had any paint flaking from the grills but suggest you contact Eric or Karma about this. The sound quality of Tektons is without reproach; the same cannot be said about his approach towards grills. I find this a minor issue and Eric was kind enough to send me two sets of grills because he knew my spaniels have a tendency to decorate large black boxes... |
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terry: Very interesting results that were a bit surprising to me. Just got a pair of the last Emotiva XPA-1s with the 60 watts of class A transforming to up to 1000 watts of class A/B. The sound/match with my DIs is riveting. Have you heard this (older) Emotiva amp? It was their standard for years and they are just now abandoning its older, very heavy technology. No more are available. Since it has huge amounts of 4 ohm power wonder how it would fare with the Ulfberhts. Eric told me he was using these a year or so ago. |
Is this the name for the "mini-ulfberht?" Looks very interesting, like the size, and am wondering about a 11" woofer... |
It has to do with the length of the soundwaves; since 6 of the tweeters are acting in the upper midrange frequency, they do not participate in the kind of tweeter range phase issues that others have complained about. Eric will provide you with specifics of this design and he is correct. |
Converter Update. After trying a number of DACs have found the ideal one for my set of DIs. It is an RME UCX that I had available as a unit no longer being used in the studio. Set up with its TotalMix computer interface, it provides readings of JRiver files that are startling realistic. In particular, it is superb at soundstage localization AND, just like the DIs, disentangles dense textures (such as large orchestras) with great accuracy. If you run across a unit, give it a try. |
An Oppo 105D (=Sabre32), an Emotiva XMC1 and Stealth D-1, and an Audient studio converter. Would have liked to try some of the Schiit products but they do not have remotes and, so, will not work in this installation. Someone on this forum recommended a product but, at $2500 it was out of my range. Also tried another RME converter, the UFX, and it was similarly excellent. One of the advantages of the RME connections is that TotalMix avoids any kind of Windows driver need and, so, provides a custom connection to the DAC that is controlled entirely by RME's architecture. Am using a wired remote to control the UCX and this is not ideal but, at least, works. Let me know if you have other candidates. |
Kenny: I, too, have done a number of REW measurements on the DIs and agree completely with your comments. Unfortunately I posted some of the results on another site and was overwhelmed with negative comments. Many pundits do not understand the nature of room acoustics as they affect speaker response. What shocked me was that the response at 20hz was dead on at 0db. This is better than the Hsu Research subwoofers I have tested. For my listening habits there is no need for a sub. |
Four years ago I started a project for my summer home -- to assemble a stereo system that would recreate orchestral music at concert levels. After going through a series of equipment choices, have finally ended up with Emotiva amplification, RME conversion, JRiver/REW file manipulation and DSP, AND, ESPECIALLY, Tekton speakers -- the Double Impacts.
Last night, as the new class A amp settled in, was able to have my first serious home concert. Started out with a couple of obscure symphonic favorites by Raff and Spohr, then listened to the entire Mahler 5th by Boulez and the CSO. The latter is very, very bright, clear, and loud. Plus 500 watts loud by the XPA-1 meters.
And the orchestras were there right in front of me with timbres so accurate I could easily assess the qualities/strength of the individual sections and soloists. No distortion or strain. All correctly placed in a pristine soundstage. No noise. Repeat, no noise.
Go to live concerts regularly and now recognize that my home system offers better fidelity.
SO, THANKS ERIC! Your Double Impacts, at their attractive price point, helped make this pleasure possible. This system fulfills my 4 year goal splendidly and, with a cavalier spaniel on the lap, makes each evening a special event. |
devaultcarl1: Not at all. Have used Emotiva XPA-1L monos to drive the DIs for over a year (500 watts) and just upgraded to the XPA-1s (1000 watts). What is more important in terms of performance is Class A power. The XPA-1s have 60 watts of class A and this is enough to make the DIs sing. My XPA-1s deliever more than 500 watts of power to the DIs (can tell by the meter) and they do not mind at all. Emotiva amps have a strong and deserved rep in the studio world but are not popular on this site. Nonetheless, they are very accurate and match particularly well with the DIs. Get a pair of DIs ASAP; you will never regret it. |
lancelock: Are they the upgraded version? Where are they located? |
Lance: Thanks; too far away for me. |
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jcarcopo: Am very interested in your speaker assessment AND your information about the Nord monos. Bought the Nord Stereo UP version from Colin last year and it was mediocre in my system. After a week one of the channels blew and I went back to an Emotiva monoblock that sounded 10 times more accurate for acoustic instruments and voices. My question to you deals with tonal weight. One reviewer of the Lyngdorf 2170 repeated my Nord experience: he kept increasing the volume to reach a satisfactory level and never quite got there. It wasn’t because the volume increase wasn't there, it was; it was because the tonal weight for the instruments wasn’t present. So, my question to you is one I have raised with several others on the Lyngdorf thread: do you feel that the weight (or body) of acoustical instruments is portrayed accurately with the Nord amp? Good instruments to check this are the cello and double bass. Do they sound natural and full? What is the maker for the Encore woofers? Am a bit unsure about 11 inch drivers. Is this one available on the market if you blow one? As mentioned above, have just upgraded to one of the last Emotiva XPA-1s and it has 60 watts class A and 1000 watts class A/B. The DIs do incredibly well with these amps and they draw, easily, 500 watts on large orchestral crescendos. So I second your description of the value of plenty of power. |
jcarcopo: Thanks for your excellent response and the time it took: the thread continues to work. Had exactly the same experience with the Nord opamps and would have kept the unit had the left channel not died. Colin is a fine professional and refunded the entire purchase price. BUT, AGAIN, when I went back to my earlier monoblocks I was shocked at the difference in timbral accuracy. Sounds as if your CA friend had a similar, but less strong, experience. The Pass labs amps are highly touted but I have used Emotiva amps for years in the home and studio and the few complaints levied against them -- too bright, too accurate -- are pluses for me. My next audio project is to upgrade the speakers in my winter home -- currently am using there the Emotiva T1/C1/E1 5 channel set. They’re great for the money but Tekton speakers are a whole ’nother league. SO YOUR COMMENTS about the Encore are very helpful and my approach is to base purchase decisions on owners who report actual experiences. In this area your posts are extremely helpful. Perhaps Eric, or one of his helpers, will post the specific bass and midrange speakers he uses for the Ulfberhts and Encores. This is a big plus for those of us who want to ensure we can replace blown transducers down the road. Have identified the ScanSpeak tweeters he uses and they are available from Madisound. |
Am looking for the 5000 post; Corelli snuck the 4000th from me. |
Tekton: The speakers people get up at 6am to listen to... |
16 posts and I'm betting on Corelli again; have to go to a party so I'm out of the race.
jcarcopo:
My technique is to have 2 homes and a stereo/5.1 system in each. That way, when you upgrade one you've got another home to outdo that previous upgrade. Works indefinitely as near as I can tell...but then there are the boxes in the garage... |
4996... ...isn't that the special price Eric gave jcarcopo for the Encores? NO, it's the posts as they approach 5000.Who will it be? |
It's congrats to david_ten and I plan on scoring at the 6000 mark. |
jcarcopo: Am confused concerning the quality and type of tweeters in both the Encore and Ulfberht. The DIs have sbacoustics SB29RDNC ring dome radiators; have purchased spares of these from Madisound and they are $57.20. The ScanSpeak drivers in the Ulfberhts appear (by sight) to be ScanSpeak D2605 dome tweeters (either the regular dome or the limited edition textile dome) that Madisound sells for $48.60 and $54.40. If so, wonder about any improvement in quality here. Personally, I would prefer a ring dome radiator over a dome as it might have less mass -- as Eric touts. It is true that the ScanSpeak drivers reach down to a lower frequency. But you or Eric's people can let us know the actual specifics.. |
Can you experts tell me what make are the tweeters in the DI? Know the Eminence woofer from the discussion above and am thinking of getting some replacements for those accidents that happen with my pets and occasional electronic spikes (also...have you heard the Telarc Wellington Victory album with the exploding fireworks? It will kill a tweeter in a heartbeat...). Thanks. My serial numbers are 229 and 230 in case they have changed over the run. |
Thanks, Kenny. I, too, listen mostly to jazz, pop, and bluegrass music but the DIs have rekindled my enjoyment of classical feeds -- largely orchestral ones that have large soundstages. Suspect you found this one long ago, but, if not, the Bela Fleck and the Flecktones "Live at the Quick" DVD is spectacular on the DIs. Wooten's bass solo can be used as a primer for illustrating the DI bass response. BTW, if you're looking for a practice piano, there are excellent sampling instruments available as are the Korg keyboard controllers hooked up to a VST/computer. Allows the aficionado the opportunity to blend their musical and audiophile interests. Nothing beats a grand, however. |
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doctorsubie: I have gotten grills and was under the impression from Eric that he made them in bunches and was so occupied now. Give him a call and see. Much prefer the look of the large DI cabinets with the grills installed and don't notice any appreciable sound difference. A number of posts have suggested they are using subs with the DIs and I, apparently, am in the minority in not feeling any need for them at all. In particular, I like the finely detailed bass response and soundstage advantage of having the bass follow the stereo feed. Noted elsewhere that the REW checks in my large room are solid down to 20hz -- although my ears start checking out at around 25... |
triumphtt02: Welcome to the Tekton world; you will get countless hours of pleasure from your purchase. You are an example of the people who use this thread intelligently -- listening to the owners who provide their honest experiences and ignoring the rest. Audiogon is to be praised for providing an outlet that permits this type of enquiry. |
Jeffrey: Can you compare the soundstage qualities of the DI and the ULF? Your comments on piano accuracy are interesting to me as I have tried playing self-made recordings (24/96) of my German grand on the DIs and this is one area where the speaker only got a B-. Your comparable comments between the DI and ULF will be of interest to a number of us DI owners. Thanks. Craig |
Jeffrey: Your contributions to this site are the reason why the free Internet works. By contrast, the self-serving "experts" that hang out on other sites confuse the issues and make it more difficult for potential buyers to make the right decision. One honest buyer is worth more than all of the speaker "experts" combined. To paraphrase Samuel Clemens "if "expert" posters keep shedding darkness on the issue, soon we'll know nothing at all..." Am wondering about the "elephant in the room" meaning, the cabinet size and design. Does this work for your room? The DIs I have are large enough to make a statement in a very large living room. Wonder if a cabinet this size would overwhelm and, as well, be overly minimalist in design. Weigh in, fellow Tekton owners. Craig |
Jeffery:
Overall would you say the ULFs have greater dynamic headroom than the DIs? In particular, am thinking of large orchestral recordings where the ideal is to be very loud but not sound electronically/acoustically stressed. Am getting some of this with the DIs and have found that cleaning up the room's resonance characteristics helps greatly with this goal.
Thanks again for your information. Eric lists the amp limit at 1000 watts -- can only think of the Emotive mono blocks that produce this kind of power at 4 ohms. Getting this as class A power would be another story...
Craig |
David: Can you describe the sound improvement of the gliders? Have never used these animals and would like to know if they would help with my DIs positioned on very hard wood tile. Thanks. |
Yes, David, very helpful. Will order some this weekend. Thanks again. Craig |
Bullitt: Check out Emotiva amps -- they are SS but considered pro quality. Am using three of them in various home and studio setups and they are very solid and accurate. Like Tekton, they are known for their cost value relationship. It's Emotiva.com. |
Corelli: You are right about Copland and the holiday. Share your enthusiasm for Telarc releases and enjoyed your description of the Rodeo orchestra -- very good.
Like the bass instruments and low drums in the Teldec release Shostakovich: Symphony #5 by Rostropovich and the National Symphony Orchestra (who will be playing today in DC on tv). Use this to show off the DIs bass handling and it is too good -- makes you listen too loudly! Am going to have to take some listening time off to let the ears recover... |
Now I'm a believer too... On the advice of the above posters decided to try Herbie's Threaded Stud Gliders and damned if they don't work. Installation showed me that the DIs can become very dusty in a month and that the pointy feet don't work at all on a hard wood tile surface. The gliders are a much better way to level and secure the speaker and, especially, to make fine spacing adjustments afterwards. Went with the inch and a half thread in order to raise the speaker just a little and found the tightening nuts essential to get a nice stable result. Immediately tried out known bass examples to see if there was any change -- like to use Flight of the Cosmic Hippo (Fleck) and Tarnation (Thile and Meyer). The bass was less ringing and more realistic. Interestingly, it was possible to turn the volume up a little with this added tautness in place. Then tried Mahler's 6th with its opening double bass punctuations. Here too, the bass lines were better separated and more realistic. SO thanks to those above who put me onto these gliders; your knowledge and information is one of the ways that these threads work. Haven't found this kind of low cost improvement since I discovered Blue Jeans Cable and their Belden 1800f cable a number of years ago. BTW, took the precaution of getting some replacement speakers for the DIs (I blow woofers and tweeters every now and then...) and they came this week. Uniformly high quality speakers and it is a big plus for me to be able to order replacements on the open market at the most competitive price. Don't let anyone lead you to believe these are "cheap" speakers. If you order a complete set at the best Internet price it will cost you around $1200. A couple of woofers and tweeters are around $200. |
