The Devil is in the Cartridge Setup (and a good phone pre)...

I find the latest Norah albums poorly recorded (LP)

jbhiller: Why did you not believe that Manley knows what they are doing when it comes to building electronics?

With all due respect, that was a foolish move. You just trashed the resale value of that otherwise fine piece.

Also, when making changes, make them one at a time, otherwise you’ll have no idea which ones make a difference, either positive or negative.

I’ve had my hands inside of more equipment than some have seen with their eyes.
from $5 to $100k+, every single one of them could be improved upon.

The better built, the more time it might take to find a spot or point that can be properly improved, vs simply made different, but the record is as it is. The improvement may not be viable or practical, but they do indeed exist as things that could be done. Everything can be improved.....

I’d wager that the better designers feel the same, but in the end, it’s always a trade off.

Eg, one can take the lid off a $10-30k-etc amplifier and stand there with you, and talk for half an hour (pointing, explaining, and so on) on all the things that could be improved upon. Some practical, some not.

Everything has to have and does have a price point --and price points have trade offs.

You could say, "here’s a $10k mc transformer/pair, considered to be the best and perfect", a simple device, right? And I could say, "not so fast....let’s cut that open with a bandsaw, and talk about this". Like, the insulation dielectric on the wire(10-20 minutes right there), the formulation of the wire element/alloy (another 20 minutes), the core material and design, changes to the core material, solders, casing, noise rejection, mounting. winding technique, RCA jacks.... a whole pile of stuff. Might be a one hour talk on what looks like a simple transformer--but is not all that simple, in the end.

I recommend cleaning the stylus after playing every LP side. And apply some Stylast after cleaning.

Talk and more talk. Mods always reduce resale value unless performed by the manufacturer. I would never buy a piece that I knew was modded by an end user, even if returned to stock. Time and time again arguments are made for doing this, and it’s fine as long as the user appreciates the work they’ve done on it. But in the market, it’s a fool's errand.

Stevecham, 

Your question assumes what it seeks to prove:  that I think Manley doesn't know what it's doing.  On the contrary... I love Manley.  I think the Chinook is an amazing piece of gear.  In fact, it's the last piece of gear I'd ever sell.  So, I have no idea what you're talking about.  

Next: I have no intention on ever selling the Manley.  It's that good. I do, however, have curiosity and realize this is a hobby.  

 I have tinkered with electronics since I was a kid.  I'm 44 now.  I've built 3 tube amps.  I'm not sure what your perspective is or experience in this area is so I'll be sensitive.  Op amp removal and install is perhaps less involving than changing speaker cables over and over during the life of a component.  Sometimes an op amp can be soldered.  Other times, and I think IMHO, usually they are drop in.   The takeaway--op amps are no different than fuses.  Would you say that a user made a terrible mistake by swapping fuses?  What if the fuse goes out?  

As far as making many changes in a row, thank you for stating the obvious.  That's exactly what I did and knew it.  Life is busy.  

But above, all, I'm super curious as to why folks drop in to voice opinions in this way.  

And finally, on the issue of modifications.  The amps that I've built have never had one issue and I've swapped in and out caps, resistors, output transformers, power transformers, and so on.  But I've bought some expensive gear and had to have it repaired on multiple occasions--usually with good service from the manufacturer.  

In no way am I suggesting that modifications are better or always safe or don't have an effect on resale (maybe for the better).  What I am saying is... why did you drop in here?  

@teoaudio,  I agree 100%.  And when I built or modded I started to realize the cost of things.  They often seem cheap to an audiophile who's doing a single build. "Why not use Mudorf caps, and try Clarity, Auricaps (cheap but brilliant), etc?" 

Your point is spot on.  The manufacturer has the advantage of economy of scale on one hand (or maybe it doesn't if it's small), but each piece adds up very, very quickly--especially when making multiple units. 




 

A couple other things....

What Nora Jones albums are poorly recorded?  I have a personal opinion of quality ranges for each in her portfolio, but I I wouldn't any are poor in general. 


Thanks for the recommendation on Stylast.  I use the onzo product and I don't clean it as often as I should. Off to buy some Stylast, as it is highly regarded and if it saves or buys me some hours it's probably worth it. 

I believe the subject is cartridge setup and it’s importance, not talking smack about mods. If you don’t believe in mods, don’t buy them. 

Good question. I was going back through all settings and after using the Feickert I had to reset the VTF. I sloppily set it from my memory of specs.  Then when I fired it up I didn’t take notice of the sound until I had the chance to sit and listen critically. 

Yes the subject is about cartridge setup and how important it can be. My mistake and forgetfulness had almost had me going into upgrade land—when all was fine. Phew!

Dear @jbhiller : """  the op amp "upgrade" made less difference... " and perhaps not a true difference for the better. From some years now BB is prt of TI whom bougth it.

nyway, good that you come back to the vinyl fun.
R.

Talk and more talk. Mods always reduce resale value unless performed by the manufacturer. I would never buy a piece that I knew was modded by an end user, even if returned to stock. Time and time again arguments are made for doing this, and it’s fine as long as the user appreciates the work they’ve done on it.
But in the market, it’s a fool's errand.

Most of us are in this for the music, not trying to anticipate a market value.   I find your point of view ridiculous considering the opamp ia a plug in device and the OP can at anytime put it back to the ultimate and perfect OEM condition. 

I see this happening more and more often in this forum.  It's getting more and more petty, and the personal attacks are getting out of hand.  OP came in to share his experience, which I found interesting.  I'd like to hear more about the changes due to the OpAmp in the Chinook.  We all make mistakes... kudos to the OP for being man enough to share his mistake.

And, I'd like to hear far FAR less of people calling each other fools (or much worse that I've seen), even if it's prefaced with "all due respect".  Frankly, any time you start with "all due respect", you are about to be disrespectful and you know it.

These kinds of trolls are making the forum less and less fun for me.  Can't we just get back to sharing experiences and stop verbally assaulting one another? Every thread seems to devolve into this kind of drivel after 5 to 10 posts.  Look at the archives, and it wasn't this way in the past.

JBHiller.....her first couple of record albums are good....the last are pretty bad. I think that her producer was after a new sound..(junky) Can hardly understand the lyrics. Her producer was Danger Mouse (I heard they’re an item)....I point the finger to him

The American philosopher D. Davidson wrote an article with
the title ''What  metaphors mean''. The problem with Davidson
like by his 'mentor' Wittgenstein is that they have no theory but what
one would call ''philosophical remarks''. Wittgenstein ''Philosophical
investigations'' are illustration . After remark nr. 1000 one lost or
forget 980 other because an normal person can't remember more than, say, 20. No wonder then that the question ''what are both works
about''? is impossible to answer. According to Davidson metaphors have ''ordinary mening'' or no meaning at all.
So what is the meaning of ''the devil in connection with details''?
To me it means a warning against ''easy statements'' by which
many or some details are overlooked. We can, I think, agree that
''our'' J. Carr knows all the details involved by  cartridge design. 
But this does not apply for the most other members of our forum.
Consider the fact about ''primary fear'' by cartridges regarding
the stylus condition. According to J.Carr this is the least serious
issue by carts because stylus (only) retip will not change the
performance of the cart more than cantilever or suspension
change. Consider suspension change. How many of those can
any retip service get from their supplier and in what quality?
EMT for example has for years as ''achilles tendon'' the suspension.
If an producer is not able to solve such a problem way should 
an retipper do better? I want mention coils because there is
hardly any retipper capable to repair those. But those are ''the
details involved'' among other.  

@soundermn 
I agree. And I thank you for chiming in. 

I have a fairly thick thick skin but the tone and message of folks’ responses more frequently makes me think twice about posting in the first place. I’ve experienced this a lot recently.  

Im really thinking of switching to a different forum. 

When I built stuff DIY, I’ve used those type of forums to better success. People there are kind, helpful and there’s a real sense of unity.  People there treat others like members of a special club. I’ve never received criticism or snarky remarks.  And it’s rare that the OP’s thread gets off topic.  

On the issue of modifying gear...

i used to shy shy away from it for many common reasons.  Once I did a couple of more significant DIY builds, I learned so much about manufacturers’ choices.  It’s really rare that they use as good of stuff throughout the whole build even in what I consider expensive or regarded products. 

For example, my Primaluna integrated has only two nice but not top end Mundorf caps hooked to the preamp tubes.  But the rest of the product is laden with Duroch caps that I think are SCR caps rebadged.   I’m not going to say SCR caps are junk yet better caps throughout has the real potential to affect sound in a detectable way than does the use of crazy expensive cords or cables. I know that firsthand at least to my ears.  

Putting the the issue of resale aside, I would have spent another $300 on caps if I were making the Primaluna myself.  I may also have paid more for them on new purchase as an option. This is not a big deal.  It is worth noting.  

I bet bet many of the golden ears out there who spend real money on cabling or tubes could appreciate the addition of a Jupiter cap or great Mundorf just as they can hear a $600 power cord, which I sometimes can and sometimes can not justify even if I can. 

I highly recommend to folks buying an Elekit amp to build.  It’s like painting by number and when you do it you can try your hand at easily swapping caps or buying better resistors.  You don’t need much skill. Just a soldering iron and watch YouTube instructional videos if you want to know how to solder. I’d bet money that many people would find that a $600 kit amp sounds better than some stuff costing thousands.  

Back to the thread... I was listening to Norah Jones last night, and did notice that on some songs on "Day Breaks" album, it seems like the microphone is either too hot, or she's too close.  It makes her voice sound a bit over-done or over-produced and it's not so good.  But, it's only in a few spots that I noticed.

With your Manley, did the Op Amps change the sound?  I thought I read somewhere that Eva was quoted saying the Op Amps are for some purpose other than amplification, and aren't in the signal chain.  But, I don't remember the details.  

Found it:  

Mrs. Eveanna Manley explained: “Those opamps are performing as a DC voltage servo in order to bias the FET operational point. Those opamps are not in the signal path. They just stabilize a DC voltage needed to set the operational point of the FETs”.

That's interesting, Soundermn!  

I'd be talking beyond my expertise (very limited anyhow) to say whether op amps stabilizing DC voltage had any bearing on the sound when they are entirely out of the signal pathway.  This fact probably makes the quick swap less likely to have an impact on sound.