Thiel Owners

Hi Again Everyone,

Hope you’re all getting ready for some great holiday season listening.

Disconcerting recent news/rumors about Thiel’s possible demise isn’t it, though not exactly the surprise of 2017. Frankly, in the voice of the best Bond villains: "we’ve been expecting you."

My main, and admittedly selfish, fear is what happens if I sent something off for service and the company was suddenly closed down. As I explained in detail here a few months ago, I was able to do a 100% effective repair on a minute tear in one of my midrange drivers, but I’d still like to get both pairs fully refurbed at some point. The issue is that I don’t want to disturb anything while my repair holds up and right now there’s no reason to think it won’t, or that I couldn’t perform the same repair again.

But what happens to our precious bits and pieces that may be in Kentucky at time of close down etc? I’m sure Rob would do what he can, but obviously events can happen fast and unpredictably when a company closes, for whatever reason.

Let’s hope that the ship steadies. I confess that confidence isn’t high. The new MD so far seems oblivious to two channel and solely appears to be on some sort of mission to use lifestyle marketing to sell upscale Bluetooth speakers to millennial types.

Maybe the longer term plan is better than it currently looks? However I do wish another audiophile speaker manufacturer would attempt a buyout, as the current management appears to know as much about real hifi as I do about what is fashionable clothing/style these days i.e. zilch.

Still loving my 3.5s and currently feeding them with tubes. Beautiful sound.

Hi Jafant, thanks it will be interesting to see what Rob says. 

Have been watching this thread with huge interest and perhaps it’s time I waded in with a few initial thoughts, again on the 3.5s. I’m 100% with oblgny in his praise for these amazing speakers. Goodness knows I’ve owned a hell of a lot of speakers in the past 30 years, from three types of Quad electrostatic, to Kef 107/2s to Celestion Kingstons, to LS3/5As, to name but a few, and nothing comes even close to what the 3.5s do as a whole. I truly think my quest is at an end. They handle ANY genre of music utterly effortlessly and don’t need huge amounts of gain to sparkle either. As oblgny says, there’s something so right about them. And yet they aren’t exactly the most sought after speakers and go for prices that are punching way, way below their weight. I have no hesitation in calling Jim Thiel an utter genius of speaker design. Admittedly not the easiest speakers to drive, but who cares when the sound is so gloriously complete. Perhaps someone could answer if these were the only full range Thiel speakers? I can confirm that the Kentucky service dept is alive and well and I just bought new spikes from them a couple of weeks ago. They don’t do the rounded tip ones any more however.

As a slightly negative footnote, while I'm pleased that the new regime at Thiel has allowed the service dept to stay alive, the new designs are not worthy of the brand. You'd at least think they'd retain the coherent source concept, wouldn't you. Presumably they purchased the IP too?

Minuscule differences of course, but I think neither speaker went to 20Hz, something like 23Hz, but I appreciate that’s as near as dammit to full range.

"Thanks! for sharing your impressions and experiences- catalysis what gear, including cabling, are your using in your system?"

Benchmark DAC2 HGC, Bridged Adcom GFA 555II’s, Benchmark star quad interconnects. Canare star quad speaker cable. I have the 3.5 equalizer permanently in circuit. All components connected via Adcom Ace Enhancer.

Contrary to some people’s experience with Adcoms and Thiels, I don’t find the sound presentation sound harsh at all. I think that is helped by the very high quality dac which means the Adcoms are amplifying a very pure and accurate signal. I also agree with others that toe in should be absolutely minimal for best treble resolution.

Despite Thiel’s comments that these speakers aren’t very critical to position, I find that they benefit enormously from experimentation. Even two inches less toe in can bring big contrasts in sound presentation. I do have to wonder how many owners dismissed them as harsh without playing around with them in their music rooms?

My own take is that the tweeter has quite wide dispersion characteristics and any attempt to over focus treble direction, for example pointing directly at the listener position, essentially takes them out of Jim’s intended design window.

Previous speakers in my listening room had always benefited from quite fierce toe in, essentially with the tweeters pointing at my ears. With the Thiels it’s totally different. They don’t sound bad in that configuration, but it does compress their ultra impressive sound staging, plus the treble is far better integrated with the other drivers when in a more or less flat set up. I have about an inch of toe in just to channel the sound away from the side walls.

Essentially I’m in heaven with how they sound.

While led they do plunge Stygian depths of bass, the sound is still lean when it needs to sound lean. In other words there appears to be zero cabinet coloration. To my ears the 3.5s have the sound I was chasing with electrostatics, but with all the dynamism they lack. Just superb.

nkonor my understanding, as far as 3.5s are concerned, is that Thiel service can only rebuild drivers. I understand the midrange can be rebuilt for $300 each, so not cheap, but I think well worth it to extend the life of these wonderful speakers. My mids are fine, but the design of the 3.5 means these are the most likely driver to fail.

@frozentundra Benchmark DAC2 here with CS3.5s.

Hi all,

If this report is correct, Thiel Audio is now dead. https://www.strata-gee.com/thiel-toast

Sorry if this has been posted here already, but I couldn’t see it at a quick glance.

Hopefully the Kentucky service dept is poised to rise like a phoenix from the ashes of a very sad corpse indeed.

In over 30 years in brand marketing, I don’t think I’ve ever witnessed such gross incompetence as exemplified by successively poorer management since the takeover.

Effectively the true Thiel passed away with Jim, so there’s little more to mourn now, especially if Rob manages to carry on in a new service business, as is being suggested here.

I have a CS3.5 eq unit that needs a service, but was unwilling to send while the black cloud hung over Thiel Audio. Rob will be getting this work once I hear he has managed to set up service operation. I also have a couple of midranges that could do with some TLC.

It would be nice to think that someone could start making proper Thiel speakers again with all of Jim's concepts intact. Not holding my breath on that one.

It really is great news that Rob will apparently continue. Frankly, Kentucky service dept was the only reason I was in the least bothered about Thiel Audio continuing.

Well I must say, as a 3.5 owner, this is the thread that keeps on giving every week. Some fascinating insights guys.

Listening to the 3.5s as I write and I can confirm other recent comments that their reputation for brightness is simply a misunderstanding of what’s happening when you listen through them. They will ruthlessly murder bad recordings, which is what you’re hearing sometimes. Use a first class recording and you’ll get first class sonics. It really is that simple and not a necessity to pair them with amp exotica, though of course more is always more :-)

Most crucial tip is to let your amp(s) warm up nicely, otherwise the Thiels will reveal any audible negativity in that process too.

In terms of Thiel’s repair tariff, I won’t hesitate to use that service as requirements dictate. Paid $800 for mine, in pretty mint condition, and good luck trying to find better high end audio value than that.

Also concur with the point about bass. Full range only rears its head when full range is on the recording. As has also been said, this is bass that’s musical and 100% coherent. I reckon that’s one of the toughest tricks to perform in speaker design. As we all know Jim was a towering genius.

Think fine electrostatics with true balls, all delivered seamlessly, and you’ve got the picture.

Will continue to follow what everyone says with interest and chip in where I feel is useful.

This is a really fantastic outcome following the disastrous dragging of the Thiel name through the mud with the mismanagement since the takeover. The fact that Rob is looking to offer upgrade kits is just the best news of 2018, and it's only the 1st of February. Excited.

It's possible to overload that mid range, certainly, and there are many anecdotal cases of this. The 3.5's will go plenty loud enough without the need for that, however, unless your listening room is half the size of Madison Square Garden :-)

In terms of the equalizer, this is how they were designed and I see no reason to meddle with that. But as always with audio, one's own experience is unique and, of course, very room dependent. If you think your setup is better without the equalizer, then leave it out, or maybe just select the 40HZ option.

I'm lucky enough to have a dedicated listening room, so the Thiels are located without any spousal input :-) I can imagine situations where if the 3.5's are placed near the rear wall that the equalizer will not be performing within spec.

oblgny, I find your insights most interesting and very similar to my own experiences with the 3.5’s.

There are certainly more "plug and play" speakers out there, but when you’ve got them set up correctly, the 3.5’s go places that I don’t hear on vastly more expensive equipment.

For over 30 years I struggled to get a speaker presentation balance I was totally happy with. Frequent dalliances with Quad ESL’s of different stripes took me towards the goal, but always, always with the caveat of poor power handling and a lack of low end balls. I tried KEF 107/2s and they either didn’t suit my then listening room, which I doubt, or just weren’t as capable as I expected. Tried a slew of other brands and also enjoyed my Celestion Kingstons, which were probably the second best pair I owned. I even loved my DCM TF600s, which sounded wonderful but perhaps a little colored in the low end. LS3/5As were heavenly in some respects, but again the lack of power handling meant I was tailoring my musical program to fit the speakers, which is really not a good thing in my view.

By chance I then I came across an almost mint pair of the Thiels. I’d never heard them dem’d at a show when I attended the London show for about 20 years straight, or at least if I did it never impressed me. It was a total revelation because they really do offer the best of all worlds.

My listening room session last night was typical of their chameleon-like versatility. From Boston, to Debussy to Zeppelin to Yello to Joni Mitchell to Stevie Ray Vaughan to Jamiroquai to Laura Nyro to the Elgar Cello Concerto to Roy Harper to the Kings College Choir, and many other variations, they kept up a consistent standard of excellence that you just never hear with other brands. They simply don’t have a weakness and you have to hand it to Jim for such an amazing achievement. The way his memory has been cast away by the present regime is a disgrace.

On the theme of the way Jim’s legacy was cast away, view this great YouTube video by a highly perceptive young fellow https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SkR5lAl22kk

Thanks Dave,

This guy nailed it didn't he. To be honest it's something that's been happening in audio since the very early 90s'. Celestion and KEF and Quad are other good examples.

Sadly it's a microcosm of life in general, in that there's very little that you can't make a little cheaper and nastier.

The subject of how long Rob will be able to keep the Thiel servicing going is one that should concern all us owners. It’s pretty clear to me that the new Thiel lords and masters aren’t adding any value into the business, in terms of innovation, indeed I haven’t read in any forum that anyone actually owns a pair of these rather ordinary looking new models, with their anonymous "me too" design.

It’s to the new company’s absolute credit that the servicing has been allowed to continue, as that at least provides some connection between old and new, but how long will this very optional indulgence be tolerated? Especially if the new speaker range isn’t successful, and quite frankly I struggle to see how it can be, certainly at the ambitious pricing.

All that being said, I haven’t heard the new Thiel range, but as they appear a very conventional design thats done away with the coherent source concept, long experience of the ways of this industry suggests there is little room for optimism, but I am hopefully wrong, because their success means that the service department can continue without creating too much cost cutting attention.

I have only had to deal with Rob once for a new set of spikes and, apart from being a really nice guy, he is clearly now the world authority on all things Thiel.

The major likelihood for most of us is midrange rebuilds from time to time (that was what Rob said, indeed), for which he quoted me $300 each earlier this summer. Mine are fine right now, but it’s clear they’ll one day need some attention and I’m seriously considering just getting them rebuilt ahead of the need to give Rob a little more business.

Other than that it will be a matter of someone else being entrusted to rebuild them and I can only imagine that being a compromise, to some extent at least.

Hi Dave, well I guess that's pretty reassuring. It would indeed be tragic if Jim's designs were allowed to succumb to the ravages of time. I dread the day when I have to look for another speaker. 

Naturally everyone’s mileage will vary on this, according to one’s room and equipment, but I just love how the system sounds with the equalizer in the system.

Even with the equalizer on, you could never describe the 3.5s as bass heavy. What I think it brings to the party is a sort of very refined approach that only lets the Thiels dip low when the musical signal dictates. Some might prefer a more generous bass, and there’s nothing wrong with that, but I love the overall voicing with the equalizer.

As I mentioned earlier, I had a bad experience with the KEF Kube in my 107/2s, so perhaps part of my enthusiasm is that Thiel didn’t make the same compromises with their external unit.

Anyway, I’m pleased that you found a solution that’s right for you, which is all that matters.

jafant, I would concur about timbre. It's a quality I've only heard to the same sort of level in electrostatics. In fact, owning Thiels changed my long held perception that only electrostatics could create that illusion to the same extent.

It's the consistency of the 3.5's that just blows me away. They've handled every type of musical program I've thrown at them with equal aplomb.

I keep coming back to this, but it is a tragedy that Jim's design ideals aren't being adhered to any more. Here was a guy who dedicated his life to better sound and, I believe, took his designs to places that other speakers could only dream of arriving at.

It's the balance of their overall qualities that makes them the best value you can find. I'm constantly amazed by the relatively low prices on the used market, when they trounce so many grandee speakers.

Hi Fellow Thiel Lovers,
Haven't been on here for a while, but I have been following the thread every Friday when the weekly email arrives from Audiogon. This is a wonderful chain of discussion with like minded audio folk. Great stuff.

Anyway I just wanted to update you all on how I fixed one of my 3.5 mid ranges after it had developed a slight tear in the outer cone rib.

Of course the first thing to say that, as peerless as Jim was as a speaker designer, those tiny mid-ranges in the 3.5 are really vulnerable to breaking in some way. They undergo quite a lot of stress in that otherwise stunning design.

I was listening at reasonably high volume, although nothing at all excessive, when I heard the dreaded rasping sound out of the right channel.

Next morning I composed an email to Rob asking him how much for the rebuild. Reply came back straight away, typical Rob of course, that it would be $300 plus shipping per driver. Now that isn't too out of the way, in the scheme of things, but I figured I'd like to get both mid ranges done simultaneously, taking me somewhere North of $600 of course.

So, I thought, what if I could effect a decent repair job, while I saved up to get both drivers done later in the year/early next?

I then remembered that I had refoamed some old Infinity 625's I keep for general use around the home and how brilliantly Aleene's Tacky Glue gel had worked in giving me superb adhesion at the foam edge/cone interface.

So, I fetched a tiny paintbrush and carefully applied the Aleene's to the pretty small fissure in the 3.5 mid.

Well, what can I say, it has completely solved the issue and I've done tests with my most bass heavy tracks, y'know the Kraftwerks, the Jamiroquais etc., and everything is back to being absolutely perfect and rock solid.

So I just wanted to pass this on, not as a way of depriving Rob of service work, but as a great way of giving the mid-ranges a bit more stay of execution before they have to be shipped to Kentucky when the piggy bank allows.

Aleene's is a pretty well known speaker adhesive solution and appears just perfect for those paper cones on the 3.5 mids. At around $3.50 for a bottle of the stuff, it's worth having some around for such eventualities. It's incredibly flexible and doesn't seem to react badly to any surface.

Available at Ace Hardware, Walmart etc.

Hope this is useful info for you 3.5 owners.

All good here thanks jafant. Hope it’s a good summer for you also.

Oblgny I totally agree with you that it’s worth the rebuild fee and that’s exactly what I’ll be doing.

The nice thing about the Aleene’s repair is twofold really. First it allows me, or anyone else for that matter, to save up rather than have to unexpectedly cough up the money up front or load a credit card. That said, had the Aleene’s not worked so magnificently I wouldn’t have hesitated to send them to Rob immediately. Interestingly, Rob says that as the rebuilds are measured against a reference it isn’t necessary to rebuild both, but I’d just feel happier doing that.

The other thought in my mind is that presumably Thiel rebuilds won’t be around forever, so it’s good to know this nearly free repair can, in some cases, provide a solution to keep them singing.

What I have found with the 3.5s very recently is that positioning is actually more critical than advertised to get the best bass response.

Of course this is probably very room specific but I've now discovered that sitting just inside the triangle with them as wide apart as my modest music room width allows, with a decent amount of toe in, makes a staggering difference. Previously I had tried positions quite a distance from the Thiels, thereoretically to give them more breathing room. I've found out that, in my situation at least, they don't need it. The 3.5s have effectively disappeared aurally speaking.

As Dave observes above, the bass response is actually extremely tweakable with Thiels. 

Although i I didn't think I needed a sub before, I think that is even more the case in light of recent speaker juggling.

Hi Everyone,
Thiel can keep appointing CEOs, but until one of them finally gets to grips that the company's brand collateral is being decimated by a never ending stream of uninspiring, underwhelming "me too" speakers, the decline will continue.

It's beyond belief to me that the Coherent Source concept doesn't feature any longer. That said, it's going to make our old Thiels much more valuable, but I'd rather that Thiel was a going concern making good money, if only to keep Rob in a job.

I hadn’t looked at the Thiel website for some time until tonight. This is indeed an increasingly worrying situation. And yet an entirely predictable one, as a new CEO with no apparent high end audio experience makes her presence felt, with what appears to be an exclusive and unwavering focus on wireless and streaming products. Enough to make us all weep.

The tragedy is that they’ve cornered themselves into a situation where they’re flogging a wafer-thin "me too" bluetooth range, simply because they totally botched the transition from Jim’s stunning designs to those ordinary and yet unbelievably expensive speakers, for what they were, that, as far as I can ascertain, no one had even the slightest interest in. And now, it seems, those are being discontinued, with no sign of an equivalent replacement range.

Of course none of this would matter anywhere near as much if we didn’t all rely on Rob from time to time. As I’ve said earlier in this thread, I’ve repaired one of my 3.5 mid ranges myself and, I have to say, it’s still holding up wonderfully well. I think I may be getting both formally repaired sooner than later, though, given this latest iteration of the company, which seems to be moving even further away from what made Thiel such a special organization.

All that being said, what would happen if Thiel went bust while my mid ranges were with them? Hmmm, not such a no brainer decision to send them away then...

It seems very likely that the rationale behind keeping the Kentucky service department alive was to maintain a dialog with old customers, perhaps in the hope of interesting them in a new range. But that possibility has all but disappeared now hasn’t it!

It wouldn’t surprise me in the slightest to take my weekly journey through the latest additions to this thread and read that the service department, and/or Thiel as a whole, is no more.

Of course that may not be the end, even then, as presumably Rob and/or others could set up an independent servicing operation, perhaps buying the old tooling, reference pairs etc. Quite honestly that can’t happen soon enough and we can then all stop obsessing about the current Thiel company woes and poor product decisions and just leave them to commit commercial suicide.

We’ve seen this situation repeat itself too many times in this hobby, right back to the days when other wet behind the ears execs came into the industry in the early 90s with aspirations to sell a surround sound system to one and all. And we know how that ended...

Ultimately, you just have to marvel at the insanity of acquiring a company with the reputation, technical and customer service collateral that Jim and Kathy diligently built up and ending up in short order with a range of products containing zero DNA of what made Thiel so wonderful.

Interesting comments Tom concerning the use of subs with 3.5s without the equalizer in circuit. That’s exactly how I run mine now - dual subs actually - and I’m thrilled with the result. This allows me to do real justice to more powerful recordings without worrying about the stress on the vulnerable mid-range drivers.

I takes a bit of fine tuning to get everything balanced, but well worth it.

I’m actually resting my 3.5s at the moment and am running my Quad 57s. What these help to confirm is how good that 3.5 mid-range is. It’s certainly not disgraced by the Quads.

On the current topic of amps, I’ve been running my 3.5s for the past year on my VPI 299D tube amp, sometimes with EL34s, but mostly with KT150s. The results have been astonishingly good and there’s tons of power to drive them, though I’d judge I’m a pretty modest user of gain. There were only 100 of these VPI amps made, but I understand they have a lot of Primaluna parts in them, inc the same excellent toroidal transformers, so anyone using, say, a Primaluna Dialogue should get similarly impressive results.

Oblgny so sorry to learn about your run of bad luck. I had to offload my very nice old gear about 10 years ago when I moved continents. Never an easy thing to do but what I can tell you is that it at least gave me a chance to reassess what I had before and very gradually build a much more effective system from the ground up. It took some time, but I’m very happy with where I’m at. I really hope the same for you. Starting afresh at least enables you to apply acquired knowledge and to learn from the equipment purchasing mistakes we’ve all made in the past.

The best discovery was the Thiel 3.5s that have gone on to become the fulcrum of my system.