An update on the Odyssey monos. I spoke with Klaus today, who suggested perhaps the amp's brightness was a result of them being out of bias. Over the telephone, I worked with Klaus' associate, Michael, and tested the bias of the Left Channel amp using a multimeter. It was, in fact, out of adjustment, so I re-biased the left amp with Michael walking me through the process. He suggested I listen tonight, which I did. The adjustment made a significant improvement by sweetening the upper mids and highs, and thereby removing the hardness and glare. The Mono Extremes now have a nice balance from top to bottom.
Tomorrow, I intend to call Klaus to thank him, and have Michael walk me through checking the Right Channel amp. Might as well get them back to spec to hear what they're designed to do.
Kudos to Klaus for encouraging me to call him. |
The Odyssey Extreme Monos are extended, clear and bring lots of muscle, which presents a very large image.
I've found that with the Odyssey monos in the system, the Lamm LL2 preamp requires rolling the 6922 tubes to soften the upper mids and highs. So, Mullards have been substituted for Siemens CCa tubes. |
"Sherod, I have tried both a Dominus Ferrox and Dominus Fluid on the Lamm LL2, and I preferred the Volex. Go figure."
Grant, this looks like a classic case of cable synergy( I know, I know. Synergy is an over-used word here on Audiogon threads, but it is a very appropriate word when seasoning one's system with power cords and other various tweaks). I actually like the word synergy when used in the audiophile lingo of terminology. It also amazes me in that the better my system( read: more revealing with electronics,speakers) the easier it is to fine-tune the system with cabling and power cords.
On another note, I guess the Odyssey Stratos monos weren't your cup of tea? |
Sherod, I have tried both a Dominus Ferrox and Dominus Fluid on the Lamm LL2, and I preferred the Volex. Go figure.
I've heard good things about Tubemonger...good quality at reasonable prices. Can't get any better than that.
I have not received the Odyssey monos.
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Grant,
I know that your current all-time fave power cord is the Purist Dominus, a cord that is currently on my short-list to try. We discussed earlier a good distributor. I was wondering, though. You are using a very inexpensive Volex cord on your preamp. Have you tried a Purist Dominus liquid or Ferox there? I'm guessing that you have and it was maybe a little too much of a good thing. For some reason I've never gotten that ultimate magic when I've used the same brand or same power cord on all my components. I have always gotten best results when doing a little mixing in of cords to achieve that right flavor to please my ears. On another note, I found another good tube dealer named Tubemonger that I've bought some NOS 12au7 and e88cc tubes for experimenting in my amp and preamp. He even had a brand new late 50's CBS 7729 with D getter that I've been longing to try. Did you ever get those Odyssey Stratos monos to test out on your VR4 Gen III HSE's? |
Thanks for the response, I think I should be OK,
The CinePro 3k6 is a 5.1 amp, I luck up and found on e-bay.
Professional build quality (24 hour duty cycle)
1/2" milled front panel
RCA gold plated inputs (unbalanced)
XLR professional (balanced) inputs
Individual front panel level controls (6)
On-demand silent-cool forced air cooling system
Individual signal and clipping LED's
Ground lift switch to eliminate hum
All discrete circuitry, low negative feedback
Audiophile grade capacitors and 1% metal film resistors
120,000 mfd power supply capacitance
Huge toroidal power transformer.
Incredible dynamic headroom of 3.55 dB-thats over 800 watt peaks! (8 ohms)
Custom REL-CAP and Wima capacitors in the critical signal path
12V DC remote trigger input
Output Power....... .350 WPC/8 OHMS (typ. 450W)
500 WPC/4 OHMS (typ. 670W)
1000 WATTS MONO (1400 @ 4 ohms)
THD... <.015% (full power 15-20Khz)
TIM... <.015% at full rated power
Freq. Response... 2-180 kHz + 0, -3 dB
Input Imped.... 47K Unbal, 15K Balanced
Configuration... 3,4,5 or 6 Channel
Dynamic headroom... >3.5 dB! (Typ. 850 watts @ 8 ohms, 1100 watts @ 4 ohms)
Peak Current... 120 amps per channel (720 amps total) .1sec pulse, .5 ohms
Hum/noise... -110 dB unweighted
Damping Factor ...Over 1000 (!) (10Hz-1kHz)
Cooling ...Convection w/ on demand silent fan
Weight... 70 lbs |
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Hap123, I'm not familiar with the CinePro 3K6, but the VR4 Gen III HSE reveal whatever is upstream, and their sound changes accordingly. I once owned a Bryston 14B SST, and it produced bone crunching dynamics, but it had some glare that the speakers revealed. Any grain or edge in the amp will come through the Gen IIIs. They are not forgiving in this regard. They also like some watts and current to really come alive...100 wpc does it, but more is, well...more!
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I'm considering purchasing these speakers and my current amp is CinePro 3K6 with Integra Surround Processor. Would this amp serve these speaker justice.
Thanks - Hap |
I own the extreme monos Oddyssey stratos I never regret
having them.They are very natural sounding amps.I am
thinking of selling them, but it has been a year now.
I am having a hard time letting them go. |
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Thanks a lot for planting that seed of "lust" in my heart for the PHI's. I need to be satisfied for a while with the Musicblocs. Let us know how the Odyssey Stratos Mono's work out.
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Sherod, I've had a handful of first class SS and digital amps in my system and none have encouraged me to put the tube amp on the auction block. That's why I say we'll see how the Extreme Monos perform. They certainly have enough power and current to drive my VR4 HSEs in a manner that will be different than the VAC.
Different is the key word.
You're going to love the Musicblocks...and will be lusting after a Phi amp in no time at all. |
I too look forward to your impressions, Grant. How ironic that my last system had the Odyssey Stratos Extreme(stereo, not monos) and now I'm changing to the new VAC Auricle Musicblocs. I did enjoy the Odyssey Stratos immensely, but there's something about a well-designed tube amp. Who knows? Maybe I won't like my VAC amps and will want my Stratos back. We'll soon see. |
will look forward to your thoughts... |
Great word of mouth. Great specs...for what they're worth (200 wpc, lots
of current delivery, 1 Hz-600,000 Hz frequency range...???, 360,000 uF
capacitance).
Plus, they are priced less than $2900/pair, and come with a generous
audition period.
With the cost of the Odyssey Extreme Monos being what they are, I'd be
able to keep the Lamm LL2 in the system for only slightly more than a
used high end integrated amp (Mac MA6900, VAC Avatar Super, ect.)
The proof will be in the listening. I'll admit they are up against tough
competition, and no other SS or digital amp has come close enough to
my VAC to warrant downsizing.
But, I'm keeping an open mind, and I look foward to hearing them. |
how'd you end up choosing the odysseys? |
Before I give up on the separates all together, I've decided to try a pair of Odyssey Extreme Monos. |
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The Niles box adds too many additional connections for my taste. Thanks again for the suggestion, but I'm going to pass on that unit. |
Easily fixed with a Niles box sold by quest for sound.
Enjoy.
Brian |
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Thanks for the Sound Quest suggestion, however I require at least three inputs and a tape loop, or a second pair of fixed level RCA outputs in lieu of the tape loop. |
http://iar-80.com/page68.html
Here's an interesting quick review of the original Avatar and the current Super that might help put some things into perspective.Scroll down to Avatar. |
04-15-06: Jmcgrogan2
Grant, maybe you should look at the older Avatar's, pre Super, 1999-2003. The original Avatar and Avatar SE had a triode switch. 30 wpc triode, 60 wpc ultralinear. Those are nice features. I don't think there's anough power there to push my system up hill. I didn't say that there was no profit, just not enough profit. Companies count on their products to make a certain percentage of profit I understand completely, and I agree VAC should charge whatever they want to charge. |
I spoke with someone at VAC a couple months ago about the Avatar Super replacement & if I remember correctly, it will be in the neighborhood of $10K retail. I got the same story about not enough margin on the discontinued Super. Those used Avatars look pretty good after hearing that figure. |
Check out the Sound Quest sq-88 tube integrated from www.questforsound.com. Other's here on the gon. love this combo with the VR4jr. Check it out. |
Grant, maybe you should look at the older Avatar's, pre Super, 1999-2003. The original Avatar and Avatar SE had a triode switch. 30 wpc triode, 60 wpc ultralinear.
I didn't say that there was no profit, just not enough profit. Companies count on their products to make a certain percentage of profit. From what I heard, they were costing too much to make and not enough profit. VAC didn't want to raise the price, so they suspended production until they could figure out how to build them and still realize their profit goal.
Can't blame them really, a company wants to stay in business. They could outsource to China like many others, but I don't think Kevin wants to do that.
John |
04-15-06: Jmcgrogan2
The word I heard on the Avatar was that VAC shut it down until they could find a way to make it more cost effective Wow, John. That's interesting. At $6500, you'd think there'd be some profit in it. Well, selfishly, I hope Kevin finds a way to offer a "low cost" VAC integrated that offers the outstanding sound of his other products...and I'd like to ask for a triode switch. :) |
The word I heard on the Avatar was that VAC shut it down until they could find a way to make it more cost effective. Evidently there wasn't enough profit margin on the older Avatar's.
Cheers,
John |
Yes, the new Avatar. You might give Kevin a little e-mail to feel him out a bit.
I agree with you that power cords, as well as other cabling, is system dependent. It's all about synergy, although the Trolls out there cringe when they hear the word synergy. I'm so glad that you are off the cable merry-go-round. Perhaps someday, I'll be so lucky. Good luck in your amp quest. May you find that right synergy and still be able to put a few $$$ in your pocket. And everyone said, "Amen". |
I'll keep the Volex in mind, but I've read some ho-hum stuff on it in Audiocircle threads. For $159.00, try the Audio Horizon Premium power cord. When audiophiles routinely spend hundreds and hundreds of dollars on accessories like power cords, and a $159 power cord is considered a bargain, I can't understand why anyone resists spending less than $10 on something that might well work marvelously. You've been around the block many times with power cords, Sherod, and you know as well as anyone that synergy is the key. Perhaps those over on Audiocircle haven't used the Volex in the right application. Perhaps they haven't even tried it at all. Whatever...it's less than $10 shipped to your doorstep. Try it or not, it's up to you. My Volex works really well in it's present position on the Lamm. Otherwise, I'm all set where cabling and power cords are concerned, and it feels good to be off that merry-go-round. Now, about the possible new Avatar... |
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Grant, if the old budget could have handled it, I would have given the VAC preamp consideration. Joseph gives a 30 day return policy on his preamp and an Audiogon member with a very nice system just sold his $16,000.00 First Sound Paramount Sig. because he liked Joseph's 2.0 preamp better, so I thought I'd give it a try. I'll keep the Volex in mind, but I've read some ho-hum stuff on it in Audiocircle threads. For $159.00, try the Audio Horizon Premium power cord. Two guys here in Audiogon just sold their Shunyata Anacondas, Elrod Sig 3, and Electraglide Epiphany X to go with the Audio Horizon Premium and Transparent cords. I'm very impressed with the magic of Joseph Chow. I sent him a Citation 14 tuner that I paid $75.00 for on Ebay. It retailed for $595.00 in 1972. After $300.00 and Joseph's magic flooby dust, this tuner has become my main source of listening. World class sound. |
04-15-06: Sherod
Hey Grant,
I respect your respecting the dealers. Very honorable. That's why we
have Audiogon to buy used, right? Thanks. Have you narrowed down your choice of
integrateds yet? No, not really, but everyone's suggestions have been helpful. I got a gut feeling that he's about to introduce an
all new Avatar. Perhaps. It would seem to be a logical market segment in which to have a strong product. Have you considered maybe changing to
speakers that might not be so power hungry? I briefly considered Silverline Sonata III, but I really, really like my speakers, and I'd rather not toss everything out and start over. I'm having a difficult enough time deciding to buy an integrated. There are several options that offer plenty of power. I just bought Joseph Chow's new preamplifier and
I'm chomping on the bit in anticipation. What, no VAC Standard LE? (only teasing...) Try a Volex 17604 power cord from Carlton-Bates.com for $7.50 (or $5/ea for two or more). 14 gauge, 3 conductor, shielded. It beat several $1000+ cords on my Lamm LL2 preamp. No joke. |
Hey Grant,
I respect your respecting the dealers. Very honorable. That's why we have Audiogon to buy used, right? Have you narrowed down your choice of integrateds yet? I just shared another e-mail with Kevin Hayes at VAC. He has been amazing with his prompt replies to my questions. He told me that his new VAC Auricle Musiblocs I just bought have essentially the same amplifier circuitry as the Avatar Super integrated. I got a gut feeling that he's about to introduce an all new Avatar. Have you considered maybe changing to speakers that might not be so power hungry? It might give you a better choice of integrateds. I just bought Joseph Chow's new preamplifier and I'm chomping on the bit in anticipation. I also recently bought his Premium power cord($195.00) and it's been one of those "Oh..my.. God" jaw-dropping experiences. |
Yes.
I would rather not ask a local dealer for a demo as I have no intention of buying new.
No. |
Grant, have you done a search on Von Schweikert in the threads? I'm also curious what other VS speaker owners use for amplification. Needing lots of reserve power might be difficult in finding the right integrated. Do you have any close by dealers who might loan you something to demo in your own system? I'm also wondering if going to a SS integrated will satisfy you after getting spoiled on the Phi 110 tube sound. Are you getting tired of tubes in general?
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yo dean! you're right about that mac, it's sweeet looking. who knows what it sounds like tho... :) |
Hey Grant, how about this beauty? I know it's tubed, but man!
http://cls.audiogon.com/cgi-bin/cls.pl?intatube&1149247597
Hello Sherod and Steve my old friends! |
i'd be really interested to hear your thoughts on the Mac vs. Vac... tho i have a gut feeling about how that comparison will fare |
Sherod, I don't necessarily need to stay with VAC amps. I looked at the Avatar, but in it's present configuration, I don't believe it has the stones to drive the VR4 HSE. One thing I really like about the VAC Phi is the ability to run it in triode. It has more power in ultriode, but it has more sweetness in triode.
I'm considering a McIntosh SS amp or integrated amp as an alternative.
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Sorry, I meant to say Lamm LL2 preamp. |
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Yes, Grant. Kevin's stuff is expensive. I'm having a difficult time trying to figure out how you would downsize, get some extra money out of it, yet still be as happy, and at the same time stay with VAC products. Can this be done? Perhaps. It seems that you want to keep your speakers, right? So, that's where you start building from. The big question is your initial thread question. I'm assuming that you want to stay with VAC products. Maybe a quick e-mail or call to Kevin might be just the ticket. There's a chance( mentioned in an above post by maineiac, that Kevin just might be revising his Avatar Super based on new technology that he has developed. If that is the case, there might be some VAC Avatar Supers up for sale fairly reasonably priced. But then, how much would you be sacrificing sonically from your current Phi 110/Modwright combo. If you need extra money, let's pass the hat. We'll put Gunbei in charge of all donations. |
Congratulations, Sherod, on the VAC Auricle Musicblocks. I was marvelling tonight at my VAC Phi 110, and wondering why the hell I want to sell it. There's very little that could replace the Phi 110 at it's used price, IMO.
The Musicblock 160s, at $8000/pair, ought to be good for that kind of money. The Phi 110 offers more, IMO, since it has triode and ultriode modes, and switchable feedback modes, among other things.
Of course, if Kevin says the Musicblock 160s are the new best thing, then I suppose they are, but they ain't cheap.
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I recently bought a good used pair of VAC Auricle Musicbloc to power my Reference 3A Dulcet mini-monitors. I e-mailed Kevin Hayes to see if he felt this would be a good match. Kevin said the Musicblocs would be a fine choice, but he said that his new Musicbloc 160 would be his ultimate recommendation. If you go to the VAC website, read through the info on the new Musicbloc 160's and you'll see that Kevin waxes very poetically over these. It's obvious that he's particularly proud of these new 160 Musicblocs. Kevin did welcome me to the VAC family. |
Pathos makes some beautiful amps; I'm using twin Classic One MkII units in bridged mode. Puts out 170wpc. Extremly pleasing sound. Something to consider, and definitely audition if you can; the use of integrateds as mono amps eliminates the extra preamp and IC's, which to my ears sounds extremely rich and clear.
I posted a review of the stereo as well as review of these in bridged/mono mode on audioasylum.com |
TVAD, you may want to check with Kevin at VAC, I saw that the VAC Avatar Super is temporarily out of production, I wonder if a different model is coming? |
yep, i figured it was the spectron. totally agree that the amp makes a big difference. i think if i was in your shoes, i'd probably consider the vac avatar super (one listed now), a vtl it 85 (only because i owned one for a while and was really blown away with how great it sounded), and maybe a cary sli 80 (maybe the f1 model). oh yeh, and another integrated that i'd love to try but that might not have enough power is that mastersound reference integrated w/ 845 tubes... |
are the von schweikerts considered detail speakers, or more warmish speakers? They are neither, IMO. Rather, they sound like whatever is in front of them. i heard a pair with a spectron digital amp, and i thought it sounded really average. totally flat soundstage.
Dennis_the_menace (System | Threads | Answers) That's the Spectron amp. The VR4 Gen III HSE produce a three dimensional, holographic soundstage with the VAC Phi. Again, it's what in front of these speakers that counts. |
hey grant... i think it's gonna be hard to beat your phi 110. i wish i could find a phi beta for 7500 too, dang that'd be nice. i still hold out that integrated as a final resting spot on my little (ha!) audio addiction. are the von schweikerts considered detail speakers, or more warmish speakers? i could never figure that out. i heard a pair with a spectron digital amp, and i thought it sounded really average. totally flat soundstage. |
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Have you considered the Onix H6550 tube integrated from AV123.com? Here are the specifications:
Tube compliment: 6550x4, 6SN7x4, 12AX7x2
Power: 50w + 50w class AB1
Volume Control: Stepped Attenuator
Input Impedance: 250K ohms
Output Impedance: 4ohm, 8 ohm
Input Sensitivity: 380Mv
S/N: >90dB
THD: 1%
Power: 117V @ 60Hz
Dims (mm): 430w x 185h x 380d
Net weight 74lbs
I have an Onix SP3 integrated and absolutely love it. Based on my experience with AV123's customer service and Melody Australia's design and construction quality, the H6550 amp at $1995 is a great deal. The photos indicate point to point wiring which looks a bit more solid than my Onix SP3. I feel absolutely no need to upgrade to the H6550 since my SP3 provides all the volume and sonic quality I need in my small listening room. |
