Budget? The Well Tempered served me well for years. They have a current model that, if memory serves, is relatively inexpensive. There is a VPI Classic that is supposed to be great. It's not crazy money either, and I believe is sold with a good arm. I very much liked the Kuzma Reference before I bought their big table- the Reference is the one that has a built in adjustable isolation system and is easy to set up and sounds great with a high quality arm. I always loved the look of the Oracle- the old ones required tweaking to get right, not sure if that's the case with the current table. TW Raven, but I think you might need to get up in price before you get to the ones that people jump up and down about. Beyond that, you are getting into more serious money: SME is one that is bullet proof. Also, getting into more money, Brinkman(n), who make an optional tube power supply for the table. There are others, including some direct drive tables, vintage tables that have been restored, and some that are pretty stratospheric in price. I never heard a Platine Verdier, but that was also regarded as a good table. There are so many tables out there today, I think in part because the overhead for manufacture is not as great as say, a digital component that is actually designed and built from parts as opposed to being rebadged. The hard part is deciding on the 'sound' of the table which is going to be pretty impossible to discern, in a dealership context. Leave room for a good arm and cartridge in your budget, but the table makes a huge difference. Even though I thought the Kuzma Reference was a fabulous table, particularly at its price point (it's been around for a while), when I upgraded to the big Kuzma the difference, in part was the absence of things- less of the sound of something at the front end delivering the signal, as well as depth and bass tonality that I didn't know I was missing until that table was set up in my system.
Also keep in mind that you have to address isolation issues, so that should be part of the equation when you are considering tables. Wall shelf mountable? Not the big Kuzma, unless you have I-beams in your walls. Floor stand? The good ones can add up and have to be part of your budget too. You could probably get away cheaply on that aspect, if it is well thought out, but you are going to have to focus on that as part of the equation too. |
Hey, Map. I didn't get into phono preamps in my earlier posting. Vdosc, are we to assume that you have a good line stage and just need a phono stage? Sorry, i didn't look at your system before asking. I had a very well regarded, pretty expensive phono stage for several years, did the whole tube rolling thing with top grade (read expensive) NOS tubes, etc. and despite the fact that this was a serious, highly regarded stage, my system (given its particular idiosyncrasies) now sounds dramatically better with a different stage. So, it ain't just what's good or expensive - it's gotta work in your system. Isn't the ARC Ref stage about 6 grand used? Given that you use other ARC components, that may be the ticket. |
Act- with all due respect, he said two things: beginner, and want stuff comparable to the ARC/B&W,etc equipment he has. As you will note, I started with relatively low budget- I think the WT is under 3k and the VPI less than 6. I'm sure there are cheaper tables, new, but frankly, I think when people start with a 1500 dollar turntable package and then wonder what the hype of vinyl is about, the answer is obvious.
I do agree that having competent set up help is a must. I still rely on set up people to help me, and I've been doing this along time.
Not trying to stir up trouble here, because you'll see that's not my style, but as they say "I want to make it clear for the record." (pun intended).
Best,
bill hart |
Act- it should literally read 'it blows,' given the air bearing and pump. Love the arm, hate the pump, which spits oil, sends nasty electrical zaps when it cycles and involves mechanical skills that have little to do with audio- only a Slovenian turntable designer would consider using a pump made in Italy. Remember that joke about heaven and hell, where the British are the cooks, the Italians are the administrators...etc.
You may be right that even an inexpensive package is enough to get the magic of vinyl. My perspective comes from having some records that i have owned since i bought them, new, in the 1960's and played them over the different systems I have owned since then. The amount of information in those grooves never ceases to amaze me. Extracting that information is another matter and the differences in what an ok turntable and a really good turntable can deliver are profound. I wasn't even beginning to suggest that the OP consider a top of the pile table to start but.... bear with me here:
having had a few good to excellent tables (the original Well Tempered, which was 'good' especially back in 1990 or so) and the Kuzma Reference (which was, and still is excellent), I was totally unprepared for what a real state of the art table (the current table I'm using) can deliver in terms of information and utter blackness/depth. So, working backwards, I'd place an enormous amount of importance on getting the best table possible. Not 10k dollars, but 5 or 6k? Granted, that's not a budget table, just the direction of my thinking.
Thanks for the kind words re the current system. You are welcome to visit if you are near NYC. I plan to break the system down as soon as this house is sold, and relocate to Austin, which is a whole other story....
Appreciate the tenor of your response, which was in the same spirit as my comments.
Best,
bill hart |
The Zesto has gotten wonderful reviews. I firmly believe that to get what vinyl really has to offer, you have to go to a certain threshold. Admittedly, I have not heard the recent small VPI or any number of others that are in the 2-3000 dollar ballpark. But, as you note, Moonguy, the phono stage is also important. I'd rather see somebody look for a used higher quality phono stage than buy a budget one, just to get in the door. At the price of the Zesto (and also, I gather the Fosgate has gotten a good reception, although i haven't heard it either), the price of entry for a very high quality phono stage is, if not cheap, more accessible. |
The Grados were always wonderful. It was a go-to cartridge for me when i used
an ARC SP-10 preamp. While that preamp had a wonderfully juicy phono stage,
it was quite noisy, and didn't like low output cartridges. I still have a couple of
old Grado Signatures sitting in a box, must be 20+ years old. I think
Soundsmith may also be doing something in this vein, I'd have to check. Step-
ups will add additional expense although I think some of these newer stages
have enough gain to run a low output cartridge.
PS just quickly looked- seems the Zesto has built in step ups? |
Act- the arm itself is phenomenal and is really little trouble, once it is properly set up. It is well machined, well designed and pretty trouble free to operate. It needs to be absolutely level, and I occasionally clean the tube that the bearing travels on, so it doesn't get 'stuck' due to 'dust.' The pump is a whole other matter. In talking with SIL in the States, they think the pump is too small for the application, and that its behavior is due in part to having to run too many duty cycles. The Kuzma US distributor does offer a bigger SIL pump, with a larger compressor and surge tank, and i might try that once I relocate.
The Kuzma 4 point arm is supposed to be fabulous, and I might install a second arm at some point- easy enough to do- just buy an additional arm 'tower' and line it up properly next to the TT. The TT itself is a beast, and the biggest issue is setting it up for isolation. It is very heavy, and adding the weight of an HRS isolation platform beneath it makes it heavier still. The room is at the top of the house, with wooden floors, so you can imagine the challenge. I tried the big Finite Elemente floor stand that was made for the Kuzma XL and it just didn't work- the floor was too much of a challenge. Right now, the turntable sits on the HRS platform which, it turn, is mounted on top of a very heavy old Asian prayer table that is about 10 feet long and has to weigh several hundred pounds. My dealer helped- adding huge chunks of sorthbothane under the table and it works well.
Definitive Audio (if I remember the name right, the people in the UK that build those Living Voice speakers) have their Kuzma mounted to a wall, but the space is an old factory with much stronger walls than sheetrock.
I'm looking forward to Austin- and am planning to do a dedicated room there, with some basic acoustic design, balanced power and the rest. I think the system will sound better in a bigger, better designed room than I have now.
Always try to visit Symbolic Motors when I'm in San Diego, but it's been a few years. Here's my email if you want to stay in touch: bill@flyingreptilemediagroup.com
Best,
bill hart |
Thanks Moon, I ain't in the market. Just bought an Allnic H3000 and couldn't be happier. |
Vdosc: you've gotten a range of good suggestions, but now that you have
narrowed it to a decent starter table, my vote, for set and forget (once a
dealer does the set-up competently), would be the VPI Traveler. VPI makes
no nonsense tables (including some very serious ones) that have had few
complaints over the years, and this one is truly an entry level table. I
haven't played with it, and no doubt, some of the more expensive VPI
tables (and others) will better it, but it will get the basics right.
I'll link to a recent review (the table just came out) where the reviewer also
touts a relatively inexpensive phono stage that may be just the ticket, and
would enable you to use a range of cartridges. I'm not sure I'd go with the
cartridge option that is offered with the VPI. You might look at some of the
less expensive Benz Micro cartridges as a possibility.
Keep in mind that the turntable will lend a character to the sound, and the
phonostage and the cartridge may have even more pronounced sonic
characteristics. (The difference in turntables is often the 'absence' of
grunge, or low level noise in the background, not hum or grinding, but sort
of a veil that you only notice when it is no longer there). Vinyl devotees will
spend alot of time (and money) getting it right. Here's a link to the review of
the table and phono stage, combined you are done for a little over 2 grand,
sans cartridge:
http://positive-feedback.com/Issue61/traveler.htm |
