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Tweeter type and brightness

I presently own Martin Logan Odysseys that I purchased new in 2005. I've enjoyed them very much but I'm having to replace the power supply board in one of them as I did in the other one about 5 yrs ago and I'm thinking that it may be time to look into speakers using more recent technology.

I auditioned several new sets at Sound Advice including the Monitor Audio silver 2, 6, 8 and 10 plus a small pair of ML's. I thought all of them were very good. Additionally, I bought a pair of Jamo Concert Eights several months ago that were fantastic for my type music which is mostly solo guitar. I regret selling them but at least I learned how good quality bookshelf speakers can be.

Anyway, I've read in several posts that metal dome tweeters have a tendency toward exaggerated or tinny brightness which can be very uncomfortable for me because of a hearing issue that I have. I want to avoid this and am asking for advice regarding this experience of others and what tweeter construction, if any, is generally best to avoid what I call screechiness.

I've been told that the technologies that best avoid this are ribbon tweeters or domes of some softer material than the various metals used in many of them. In one of the forums here on Audiogon this subject was discussed in some detail and at least several participants seemed to minimize the relationship between tweeter design and this problem. They suggested that more likely potential causes would be such things as room acoustics, interconnect quality, rake, crossover problems, etc.

I agree that each of these considerations could lend to the issue but I'm looking for a good starting point to at least minimize the contribution of the speaker design to this problem.

I've heard the gold series Monitor Audio speakers which do incorporate ribbons and they seem to work perfectly with my music but they, like the larger new ESL's are substantially outside my current budget limits. I'm currently using some borrowed temporary speakers while I'm waiting for the new circuit board so I can sell my Odysseys. In the meantime I would appreciate any advice I could use to help with an approach to selecting a speaker best suited to my needs. My upstream equipment includes Shanling solid state CD player, CAL DAC and Rogue Audio Sphinx 100W hybrid amp.
128x128broadstone

Showing 5 responses by broadstone

broadstone's avatar
broadstone OP
277 posts
 
Thanks, all of you for your responses; they've been helpful but I jumped the gun a bit. To have speakers in the system while I'm trying to decide what to do about the Odysseys, I ordered a used pair of Monitor Audio Silver eights from eBay. They actually sounded quite good in the showroom.

Going back to what I said earlier though, speakers that incorporated ribbon tweeters sounded best to me but, based on what I am reminded of on this forum, it could be for reasons not necessarily related to speaker construction. I say this because, in the store, the silver series Monitor Audio speakers are in a demo area where an A/V receiver with a speaker switching device is used to demonstrate speakers. On the other hand, the speakers with the ribbons are demonstrated in another room using more expensive separates with direct connections between the speakers done manually.

Anyway, it crossed my mind that, if one is very satisfied with a speaker except for the HF harshness, how reasonable might it be to consider replacement of its domed tweeter with a ribbon tweeter? I know that the considerations are many, the most obvious being redesign of crossover frequency points and slopes and physical modification of the cabinet to accommodate the different shape and size tweeter frame.

This may seem an outrageous concept but in my very early years I did do some of my own cabinet and x-over design and construction but that goes back to my youth when sound systems were monaural and relatively unsophisticated. Because I've been retired for a long time, though, my monetary resources are more limited than in the past but I do have more time to devote to interesting projects.

I know this sounds like little more than mental calisthenics but I really do want some input on this. I can no longer justify spending a lot of money on audio components but I haven't lost any desire for quality sound.

Current components are Shanling solid state CD player, CAL DAC, Rogue Audio 100W Sphinx hybrid stereo amp and 10 year old ML Odyssey speakers, one needing a power supply circuit board. These speakers will probably be sold after I install a new board.
broadstone's avatar
broadstone OP
277 posts
 
In previous forums I've commented on my hearing issues and questioned whether a good equalizer would help with my sensitivity to upper frequencies. Although I didn't comment on it, though, I've always felt that frequencies beyond audible range added, through some mechanics of harmonics I guess, to what I believe is referred to as timbre. I still think that to be the case so using an equalizer to merely minimize the offending frequencies would also diminish overall sound quality through elimination of frequencies beyond audible limits. For that reason I've abandoned this approach. The article referred to by Royj, (the world above 20kHz) even though I had difficulty understanding much of it, seems to address what I'm referring to.

All of that being said, although I will look into issues that relate to my CD player and DAC as suggested by Mapman, I'm still concentrating on tweeter choices as at least one element toward potential improvement. I didn't have the problems I've discussed when I was using Magnepan or Focal speakers but, then, that was when my hearing was 15+ years younger. BTW, I borrowed a pair of small inexpensive floor standing Infinity speakers for temporary use while my Odysseys are out of commission. Although overall sound quality is only O.K., they are quite easy to listen to with very little high frequency harshness, and the reproduction of violin and cello is quite realistic and pleasing.

My current thinking, based on my internet research, is that most quality tweeters are capable well above 20kHz regardless of design so there remains the question of why some speakers (and maybe it's not the tweeters at all) sound harsh in the upper frequencies.

broadstone's avatar
broadstone OP
277 posts
 
Bifwynne, your suggestion makes a lot of sense and is a direction that I'm seriously starting to lean toward. I've enjoyed the Odysseys for many years and what seems to have happened is that when I thought my equipment was failing it was actually a gradual age related hearing loss causing my problem. I agree with you that I may have been a bit hasty looking for ways to abandon the Odysseys and will repair them even if I decide to sell them.

I'm not that well versed in current design or conversant with much of the modern technical language but am not a newcomer to the hobby. I assembled my first monaural Heathkit amp and built the "Sweet Sixteen" speaker array when I was a teenager about 50 years ago. I also turned my parents' attic into an infinite woofer baffle because high volume and big bass were the kings in those early days of hi fi. Now, detail is what good listening is about for me and this seems in many ways associated with the upper frequencies. Because my hearing begins dropping off just below 5kHz I've experienced loss in this detail and I was finally fitted with hearing aids which, btw, I only use when listening to music.

To give you all an idea of how far I had gone to resolve my problem, a couple of months ago I listened to a pair of Canalis Anima's which are fantastic and unbelievably detailed but a bit expensive to experiment with. I then purchased used Jamo Concert Eights in an attempt to duplicate the Animas and it was a close comparison but some of the high frequency harshness was still there at higher volumes. Trying to identify which speakers best suited my needs I installed a speaker switcher in order to A/B between the Odysseys and the Concert Eights. I found that for critical music listening at lower volumes the Jamos shined but for TV and DVD the Odysseys were best. After I bought hearing aids, though, I started hearing more detail from the MLs and sold the Jamos.

Anyway, until the new circuit boards arrive so I can put the ML's back in service and can work on approaches to keeping them, I'm suspending pursuit of potential fixes based on choosing alternative speakers. I'll probably be asking for more advice during this process and will report on how this goes.
broadstone's avatar
broadstone OP
277 posts
 
As it turns out, it may have nothing or very little to do with tweeter design or construction material at all, in my case. Recently, I bought a pair of Monitor Audio S8's and had a tweeter failure in one (open circuit). It took me an hour or so to pin down the reason that the sound was unbalanced and sounded so generally bad.

Because it will be at least 3 weeks to get the tweeter replacement, and even though there is a significant loss of quality, I decided to remove the tweeter from the other speaker because listening with one tweeter out was very fatiguing and annoying. The resulting sound quality was, of course, bad, having lost detail and timbre.

Now, the rest of the news; even in the absence of tweeters, the sounds that caused me discomfort because of what I call shrillness, were pretty much still there so the tweeters, in my case at least, are not the culprits. To test this I used the CD "jazz at the Pawnshop" which has a pretty good range of frequencies and sharp volume rises. With no tweeters, this music lost its personality but retained harshness in those areas that bothered me with the tweeters in place. So.....where do I go from here? BTW, the upstream equipment is Shanling Digital CD player, CAL Sigma DAC and Rogue Audio 100 WPC hybrid amp.
broadstone's avatar
broadstone OP
277 posts
 
Byfwynne, once again you suggest a logical approach to one of my several questions. I will repair the ML's whether or not I decide to continue with them. At this point it's very likely that I will put them back into service and keep them; after all, after 14 years of listening to them Im, at least, used to them and there really doesn't appear to be much of a market for them anyway.

I'm going to suspend further searching for the "perfect" solution at least until I get the power supply board from ML, so I can reevaluate them in my system.
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