Let’s hope the military isn’t paying for fancy fuses what they paid for toilet seats on Air Force One. Who has better fuses, the military or NASA or audiophiles? Do guys tanks listen to high end systems whilst driving around on maneuvers? Does Air Force One have a high end sound system?
We Need A Separate Forum for Fuses
LOL, I'll bet I gotcha on that Title! ;) BTW, I put this thread under "Tech Talk" category as it involves the system physically, not tangentially.
More seriously, two question survey:
1. Do you think designer fuses are A) a Gift to audiophiles, or B) Snake Oil
2. Have you ever tried them? Yes or No
In the tradition of such questions on Agon, I'll weigh in as we go along...
Feel free to discuss and rant all you wish, but I would like to see clear answers to the questions. :)
More seriously, two question survey:
1. Do you think designer fuses are A) a Gift to audiophiles, or B) Snake Oil
2. Have you ever tried them? Yes or No
In the tradition of such questions on Agon, I'll weigh in as we go along...
Feel free to discuss and rant all you wish, but I would like to see clear answers to the questions. :)
Showing 50 responses by geoffkait
I’m going to do something I don’t usually do and that’s help out the pseudo skeptics. There is such a thing as placebo effect, probably most applicable to medical applications rather than audio, but I give you that. There is such a thing as expectation bias, also. I’ll grant you that. And the variations like reverse expectation bias. However, those “psychological” effects can be relatively easily eliminated by careful testing. So, it’s illogical to use those effects to explain ALL positive results which is the standard pseudo skeptic line. i should also point out those “psychological effects” - placebo and expectation bias - are essentially tricks of the mind, or “psyching yourself out.” I.s., they are conscious effects! As opposed to more interesting and more difficult to explain “psychological effects” evident in Peter Belt products like Silver Rainbow Foil and Cream Electret. Those two audio products operate on a different “psychological level” than placebo effect or expectation bias. They do affect the sound but not in the conventional sense, as they do not affect the audio signal anywhere, they are not dampers or RFI inhibitors, or have any affect on wiring or cabling anywhere in the room. Most importantly, the subconscious influence of the Peter Belt products, unlike placebo and expectation bias, can’t (repeat can’t) be eliminated by careful testing. They are subconscious and or physical. So they must be real. |
medwardo I’ve used the Black SR fuses in most of my electronics for a year or two. They aren’t either a gift or snake oil, but somewhere in between. Some sound improvement, but with 6 fuses in my amp, it’s almost a grand to outfit it...not sure that the improvement was worth a grand in retrospect. My amp blew a fuse...which one(s)?...I don’t know...I can’t see the filament in the SR fuses. Wasn’t willing to swap one fuse in and out to troubleshoot as I have to disconnect cables, pull the amp from the rack, take the bottom & top of my amp off to do that...and doing that 6 times or more, right... >>>>I bet establishing the proper orientation of all six fuses was a bear. 🐻 |
kosst_amojan Your imagination makes more difference than any fuse. Some seem to like pouring crazy money into their imaginations. Drugs work better than fuses. >>>>>So sayeth the Flashback Kid. Got them old flashback blues? >>>>>I predict the other drug addict posts just about ....now! 😬 I can’t decide which would be better for you two. An intervention or a deprogrammer. |
Innocent question. Why do many naysayers seem to enjoy being kicked in the head? Now, don’t get me wrong. I’m not saying there’s anything wrong with that. In fact it’s a marriage made in heaven since I enjoy kicking them in the head. 😀 note to spaceman. Learn to spell or haven’t you gotten that far in school yet? |
keithahughes @nonoise As for a "body of evidence", how about the many tens of thousands who've tried it, hear it, and enjoy it? I'd like to see some evidence to support the claim that there are "many tens of thousands" who've tried all these fuses, and believe the sound is improved. >>>>That particular tidbit of information came from your friend and humble scribe during a networked discussion with the No. 1 fuse dealer in the US and the two leading high end fuse manufacturers, HiFi Tuning and Synergistic Research. Interesting, huh? |
🐩 gdhal geoffkait - It’s never a bad time to post for the sake of posting, eh spaceman? It counts whether it’s a paragraph or a plus sign. Keep your dog in the fight. Even though your dog is a poodle. 🐩 Monty Python was never as funny as this though https://www.machinadynamica.com/ Whoa! Hey, you just blew my cover, spaceman. |
kosst_amojan @nonoise So, if I give you a good dose of LSD reality itself has now morphed into something else and the rest of humanity should be able to perceive that? The causal link between phenomenon in the universe and what you perceived them to be is very loose at best. There is no phenomenon in the universe know as blue. Blue is purely a construct of your perception based upon your biological reaction to electromagnetic radiation of a certain energy value. It’s highly debatable whether any two people experience that the same way. The color blind certainly don’t. I don’t know what your jibber jabbering about now. But the scientific method involves observing a phenomenon. That’s why humans have five senses, including the sense of hearing. We were granted the keen sense of hearing as a defense for survival. Prehistoric man needed excellent hearing and vision to detect and observe predators close by. We can even integrate what we hear and see to obtain direction. If you have hearing problems you should consult a specialist. Obviously some folks are deaf and some are color blind. We obviously aren’t talking about them. One sense some humans were apparently not granted was the sense to come in out of the rain. |
georgehifi kosst_amojan HEY!!! were on the same side in this thread. Don’t!!! call me dishonest, your the one who posted a statement what looked like someone said it because YOU put in "colon quotes" not me mate, next time don’t do it !!! Because it looks like you said he said it!!!!!! Even if you said in essence! >>>>Uh, oh, looks like there’s trouble in Paradise. Is this just a case of he said she said? 😛 |
mitch2 geoffkait “That’s the definition of trolling. Now you’re starting to catch on.” Better late than never Geoff. Although....is it true that trolling can take on many forms? For example, what is the difference between trolling and instigating...or agitating.....or, is that pseudo-trolling? I thought I would reach out to an expert to help me understand. Most of what you see this days I would probably classify as amateur trolling. |
wolf_garcia Fuse direction has absolutely zero to do with phase. For fuses dealing with alternating current, fuse direction has absolutely nothing to do with anything. One could think they hear something "like" phase anomolies from changing the fuse direction, but it’s more likely the change is imagined. >>>>>Just in case you weren’t paying attention, which you probably weren’t, we’ve already established that ALL fuses (or almost ALL fuses) are in AC circuits. Hel-loo! So that shoots down the overly used pseudo skeptic claim that it’s ONLY the fuse located where the AC power cord enters the amplifier that can’t be directional. Follow? Your assignment - dream up some new bizarre theory why fuses can’t possibly work in AC circuits, you know, other than the current goes in both directions. That’s so lame. |
trelja “Now, as I’ve previously stated, I know of no high-end audio company that could perform the sort of testing to generate the hard numbers on why these fuses would grade out as superior. Or not. To that statement, how many folks claim they measured the resistance of each on their multimeters, and saw absolutely no difference? Sorry, but measuring this level of resistivity requires a lot more than your $13 or $13K meter, including things like the ability to create an ohmic contact. I’m confident specific groups within companies like Philips, Matsushita, Samsung, and Sony do possess the capabilities, and COULD perform such analysis. But so far, to my knowledge, none has shown any interest in doing so. @geoffkait routinely mentions NASA when it comes to fuses - my position is, if you have or know of tangible evidence on the sort of comparisons I’ve described, please point us to it. Until and unless I see that, we’re left only testing (actually, I do have a few ideas for testing we could try, such as A / B the voltage / current readings through the power supply) via listening, which I certainly don’t dismiss. But that’s clearly where so much of the disconnect between the two sides lies.” >>>>>NASA was looking into advanced fuses twenty years ago, at a minimum. And more recently NASA is working with Littelfise to potentially develop even more advanced fuses. I posted links to both of those events somewhere along the line in the last couple months. There should be some minimum of due diligence to investigate the current status and technology involved. Of course we also get an idea of what current high end fuse makers are doing since they don’t seem to be shy about sharing all the gory details. Of course there the HiFi Tuning measurements of various fuses and their directions. It’s also somewhat incorrect to characterize fuses as “expensive” since according to The Cable Company’s page on aftermarket fuses more than and many are circa $20. Of course if you want the best you’re probably going to have to cough up big bucks - and if you like the cut of the new Busman high end fuse’s jib that’s means $400. But in the light of almost twenty years of audiophile fuses and with the brisk sales of SR fuses especially it does seem a little odd to see all the vociferous comments. |
Costco-emoji, I hate to judge before all the facts are in but you seem to not know what empirical evidence even is. Empirical evidence is that evidence gathered from observation. You know, like listening. We observe with our senses. Our sense of touch, hearing, vision, etc. You seem to dismiss listening as proper evidence as if nobody can hear, as if everyone is always fooled, as if everyone in the world is deluded except you. Dude, wake up and smell the coffee! ☕️ In a hobby that is all about listening and being able to distinguish subtle differences in sound your persistent and vociferous claims that these sensory abilities should be ignored or don’t exist come across as well, rather bizarre. That you would engage in such an angry and angst ridden campaign against fuses and other controversial tweaks seems, well, kind of neurotic. In any case, on with the inquisition! |
On the dodgy subject of empirical evidence, Exhibit A from somewhere in cyberspace is presented below. “Only quote facts.” “Empirical evidence is information that verifies the truth ( which accurately corresponds to reality) or falsity (inaccuracy) of a claim. In the empiricist view, one can claim to have knowledge only when based on empirical evidence (although some empiricists believe that there are other ways of gaining knowledge). This stands in contrast to the rationalist view under which reason or reflection alone is considered evidence for the truth or falsity of some propositions.[2] Empirical evidence is information acquired by observation or experimentation. This data is recorded and analyzed by scientists. This is the primary source of empirical evidence. Secondary sources describe, discuss, interpret, comment upon, analyze, evaluate, summarize, and process primary sources. Secondary source materials can be articles in newspapers or popular magazines, book or movie reviews, or articles found in scholarly journals that discuss or evaluate someone else’s original research.[2]” To make matters considerably worse for the oft obstreperous died-in-the-wool naysayers, in the case of fuses we have both observational AND experimentational evidence. Sweet! So, It certainly appears there’s a whole lot of denial going on here. |
mapman 1. Do you think designer fuses are A) a Gift to audiophiles, or B) Snake Oil answer: c) somewhere in the middle. Expensive to be called a gift. Also it is not even of any value to talk in general about sound quality of "designer" fuses. That means just appearing fancy and being expensive. I do think some fuses work better than others and there are many that work extremely well that are not "designer". There is a definite snake oil factor. There are rational ways to choose a fuse like any other electrical component. You can choose just because you believe nothing more. 2. Have you ever tried them? Yes or No Yes. Well, they can’t be much of a gift if you can’t hear them. It’s much better in cases like that to use an inexpensive Littlefuse or Busman fuse and be dine with it. Audio Nervosa is not good for anyone. How do you know if some fuses work better than others if you can’t hear them? |
wolf_garcia Tubes contain enough components in their makeup to display tonal differences in a somewhat obvious, and generally explainable way…fuses, even with all of the back and forth conversation including accolades for the "magic" high end versions, claims of sonic differences between these things, and hyperbolic exaggeration from "fusers" claiming amazement at the resulting sonic nirvana provided by fuse replacement, have left one item off the plate in this entire dialog: Why do expensive "audiophile" replacement fuses, when used with any component anywhere, do anything other than act as a fuse? >>>>I’m afraid I have to disagree with you on your theory, Wolfman. My experience is different. Totally different. I find tubes to be rather mysterious inasmuch as no one seems to have been able to figure out why the NOS wartime tubes sound so great. Some of the mystery is very low noise. In some cases you can reverse engineer them but by and large they are a complete mystery. They can’t be copied. If they could figure it out they could reproduce them, but they can’t. The other thing is that when you settle in on your favorite tubes, whatever they might be, probably NOS wartime tubes, using Herbies tube dampers improves their performance considerably. Of course the fuse thing is SO obvious. It’s your word against 70,000. Hel-loo! |
nonoise @geoffkait It was Brent Jessee (of audiotues.com) who told me the IAEA banned the use of certain metals used in NOS tubes for fear of who could get their hands on them for nefarious purposes (like building illicit nukes). After that, they never sounded the same, no matter how exacting they made them. >>>>Of course by banning them they alerted the bad guys to the specific metals they needed to obtain. Or is it Top Secret? And if so how did Brent Jessee find out? Furthermore, there’s much more to constructing a nuke than obtaining some obscure metals. And if the Government was smart they’d announce they banned metals that actually weren’t needed to make a nuke. Hel-loo! In addition, the construction of how to make a nuke is pretty well explained in a number of public sources like, you know, the book by Richard Rhodes, The Making of the Atomic Bomb. Hel-loo! |
wolf_garcia There’s no mystery that tubes have an obvious effect on the tone of things…this is exactly what I said, with no inference as to wondering why (I decide what to wonder about as I am the Wonder Decider). Also, to compare speaker cable performance with fuse performance seems ridiculous because many feet of purpose built wire is utterly a different enchilada, as a fuse is a teeny wire…albeit possibly utilizing Quantum Coupling and, as they say: "In fact, UEF Tech is so powerful even an electrical chain several miles long is fundimentally (their spelling) improved with nothing more than a single fuse engineered with our patented UEF Technology." Electrical chain into yer wallet! On another note, New Jersey has some astonishingly beautiful areas away from the cities, and NYC is possibly the coolest city in the world and I visit there often. Sometimes to shop for fuses in the Fuse District. >>>>>>Probably best to file that one under Whatever. |
It appears to be a common misconception that high end fuses have to expensive. That simply isn’t true, you know, no matter how hard they beat the drum. In fact the Cable Company page for fuses indicates many or maybe most high end fuses are less than $50. Some are much less than that. You’d have be a really down and out case to consider that expensive. |
The wire in a fuse is orders of magnitude thinner than a speaker cable with proportionally greater resistance. Go figure! In this hobby it’s often the case what you believe has very little to do with it. I have used hi end fuses in the past but now currently as I’m listening off the grid, which completely avoids any issue fuses may or may not have such as distortion and noise, not to mention noise and distortion from the house AC. “If thy eye offend thee cut it out.” - old audiophile axiom |
Ah, the old “it’s common sense” argument. It’s like seeing an old friend. Unfortunately it doesn’t win debates. A tear. 😥 By the way, shadorne, what I’m actually claiming, not what you say I’m claiming, since you can’t seem to keep it straight, is that all fuses are directional, no matter where they are located. And no matter what brand of fuse is examined, including stock off the shelf fuses. All fuses are directional in both DC and AC circuits. Can I direct you the HiFi Tuning data sheets for the umpty umpth time? |
Gee whiz, guys, I thought we already agreed a blind tests proves nothing. Especially if the results are negative. You know, due to the things that can go wrong. Especially for those among us why aren’t really used to doing tests of tweaks or cables or who all thumbs. 👍 Blind tests are a lot like the old witch hunts of Salem Mass, a woman suspected of being witch was subjected to ye olde Dunking Chair. If she died she couldn’t have been a witch otherwise she would have saved herself. Let the Inquisition begin! 👺 God gave you one mouth and two ears for a reason. - Judge Judy |
jayctoy Doug they are not gift, And no plans to try.Very expensive.. >>>>Actually, sir, they are not expensive. That’s an Old Wives Tale. There are more than a few high end fuses around 20 bucks and a bunch under 50 bucks. Create Fuse from China is 5 bucks. Check out The Cable Company’s fuse page and see what I mean. Even some stock fuses have high end versions now. Gosh, what’s the world coming to? 🙄 |