"Everything already sounds quite good, no obvious weak links."
That's when I'm done.
That's when I'm done.
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PS: I use the rack mount version of this inexpensive strip for the wall warts: https://amzn.to/2UcvMuv or https://amzn.to/2EDIyga They filter noise down to 3 kHz, and have great surge suppression. If you use them for the little noisy adapters they add one more filter between your main power conditioner and your analog gear and DAC. |
Inna it is great to be at that point. I am now, but it took about three years after I replaced some very old stuff, and one thing leads to replacing another and so on. Now at about a year with magic dialed in my system. I think is is great fun to try different cables and cords and other tweeks. To me it is like me upgrading my guitar when my guitar already sounds fantastic. So I don't feel any compulsion to do so but I do enjoy doing it at times. I have no system other than trying to figure out what is the weakest link in my system. Many times it is the oldest piece I have that wasn't picked specifically for this system, but my previous one. |
inna What is your approach to system fine tuning with cables and cords ? Everything already sounds quite good, no obvious weak links.>>>>>My approach was to get rid of them. No more speaker cables, no more interconnects, no more power cords. Not only no weak links, but no links period. 😛 No more pencils, no more books, no more teacher’s dirty looks. If thy eye offend thee pluck it out. |
@inna "n80, you never sound like an audiophile" Thank you. "You simply don’t get it." I am certain you are correct. "and as such this thread cannot possibly concern you." No, it can in a morbid curiosity sort of way. And if it takes the turn that was probably intended it will be like watching a slow-mo train wreck. It is hard to look away. And then there is the repartee. Who can resist that? |
if everything sounds great its time to sell it off and build another system. or…. if there is a roll of dough burning a hole in your pocket, its time to learn firs hand just how much real snake oil, if any, is out there and begin buying different wires. before you begin, ensure you are using the exact same playlist for all of your appraisals. speaker wires should be the first area for initiating the destabilization of one’s mind. experiment accordingly. Power cords next. start at the source and work right straight thru to the amp and or spkrs if they too are active. you should by now know every note on every tune compiled in your playlists. Main ICs next if separates or various sources are on hand. if you are on schedule its been about a year so you will know you are making progress if by now your cuing up playlist begins to nauseate you before you are finished listening to it. next, begin appraising source ICs by now sheer exhaustion should have set in from all the ‘cabling’ auditions you’ve endured in those late night sessions. being a committed, or perhaps soon to be committed, audio nut, to overcome any lack of sleep, you’ve laid in an abundant supply of Expresso and duct taped the remote control to your hand to prevent it from further damage by hitting the floor.. next, its time to revisit those speaker cables. the earmark of studius progress will likely be projecdtile vomitiing during or before the playlist begins. to know when you are completely done use a mirror and examine your image. it should appear harrowed and thin with dark circles under the eyes. hair should either be gone or greying and unkempt. for final confirmation, open your banking app and examine your account, it should look similar. violin! finis |
I didn't say great, I said "quite good". If it sounds great then you are right - time to build a new system. Nor did I exactly ask for an advice, I asked about other people's ideas and experience. Power cords might be first, by the way, especially on the preamp and amp. In any case, I am only interested in analog source system. |
@inna the approach I listed above is EXACTLY the process I’ve used since I found out wires do matter. naturally, I keep this all within reason and within available means, of course. the colorful asides were some what exaggerated, but only slightly. any way you slice it, listening to the exact same tunes, and taking notes all the while, over and over again, wears on a person. extend this effort over the expanse of months and it gets to be a real chore and soon is only pursued by the most compulsive and obsessive sorts. once very good which usually gets escalated to ‘great’ once satisfaction sets in, is attained, the process ends. without direct or immediate comparisons a subjective account, over time, tends to get inflated if there is an element of satisfactory performance routinely being demonstrated. how many in this past time have said they love the sound of their rig, yet have done nothing, or haven’t mentioned they have, with room acoustical treatments. or have not addressed the bass bumps inherent in every room? the one item I did not express is ‘retrying’ a previous contender cord or IC after it was discarded as the latest asemblage is then in place. perhaps now, it could be the Rosetta stone that brings everything together revealing still better performance. I try to not be too pedantic with my verbage at times. as for a purely analog sourced arrangement, the same process applies. get a base line somehow, and usually that starts with PCs. then ICs. However I get the impression with tTs some factors not overtly apparent if at all elsewhere, reside in that arena. cartridgesalignment. tracking. tone arms. . MM/MC. isolation. Phono pre matching, etc. then of course there’s the record selection process too. which version? re-issued? which pressing? its quite involved IMO. TT lovers have their work cut out for them. BTW, immense satisfaction, and that’s what this is all about, can be had outside the vinyl world when things are addressed appropriately. |
@inna Seriously I suggest you have a go at building your own power cords if that is the cabling you wish to start at. There are lots of threads on this subject and LOTS of information on the web as to how best to approach it. Now there maybe some really expensive boutique power cords that best my home made items but as I am in for about $80 max on each power cord I cannot say as I am too interested in exploring that avenue. And truthfully my home made cords were a decent improvement on the mix of Nordost and Wireworld ones I was using so I sold all of those then moved onto speaker cables. |
inna, If your system’s not broken, why are you continuing to try and fix it? And how are you going to know when it’s fixed and you’re done? Listening to good music via a high fidelity home audio system is meant to be a very emotionally satisfying experience that is relaxing, soothing and rejuvenates your mental and emotional health. Being obsessive and compulsive about the performance of one’s high fidelity home audio system is actually medically recognized as a disease. Constantly being concerned with fine tuning one’s audio system performance with alternate cables and cords for marginal sonic improvements is the epitome of obsessive and compulsive and is definitely not relaxing, soothing and rejuvenating to your mental and emotional well being. Why make perfect the enemy of the very good? Remember, music soothes the savage beast, not fine tuning. Are you hearing me? You are a friggin’ savage beast, not a quivering blob of audio insecurities curled up in a fetal position crying in the corner for his fine tuning mommy! You are a savage beast, soldier! Break free of your audio cable and cord chains and get yourself musically soothed! There is no joy in OCD so set yourself FREE. See? Just my 2 cents, Tim |
Last year I stated upgrading my Magnepan 3.6 to 20.7s. I like the 3.6 sound a lot. just mainly wanted the greater clarity from the different designed midrange in the 20.7s. After I bought some slightly better powercords. The powercords made me want more.. Since they did improve the sound. In between my dealer loaned me a digital player, which I bought one of those too. Back to the power.. Some Furutech AC duplex were on sale and I decided to try a few. When those made a noticeable difference to the good. I bought a few more. Then a few more. and then few more.. adding the duplex even inside the two power conditioners I use. And then even better power cords on sale.. So I bought those.. Finally some AC noise remover gizmos on sale. I bought two, yeah they do good stuff, so bought five more. (borrowing a noise sniffer from my dealer also helped me to place the noise removal devices) So some of the upgrading was buying stuff I thought about, but since ’on sale’ time to do it instead of waffling maybe later.. (rare on sale meant buy now). My main interest was clarity.. Better seeing into the music. Like vocals, on Rock became clearer, Startling realistic midbass... Anyway, during, in between, and after buying all that stuff, I was adjusting.. Swapping powercords here or there to adjust the tone.. Even the fact I had dual pairs of duplex for the amp.. One Furutech GTX-D Gold, the other a Furutech GTX-D NCF Rhodium.. and swapping the powercord plug from one to the other changed the tone slightly overall (curiously while breaking in, I liked the Gold better, then the Rhodium, then back to the Gold.. but once the Rhodium finally was really broken in, it is the one I use all the time now). One reason it was easy to for me to hear differences.. My drive for clarity brought the sound to the edge of lean over and over.. keeping it warm enough with the clarity uppermost was the challenge. So the sound has been on this edge for years.. Finding ways to make it warm up a bit and still keep the clarity. So I am really used to hearing this and able to make adjustments to bring it back to warm enough to make me happy, while still having amazing clarity. The last things I had been moving were a few powercords. Two were DH Lab $8ft wire with Furutech ’28’ plugs, two Pangea AC9SE mk2 Signature, and two Pangea AC14XL. For amp, one preamp, and the Furman conditioner power cords back and forth to find just the right best sound. Ending up with the AC14XL on the amp, The DH on the Furman and preamp, And the AC9SE Sig to the Rudistor RPX-33 headamp. trying stuff all over, and not just where some guru theory sez’ it should go. So in particular a heavy amp cord on the little headamp? and a smaller 14 gauge on the main amp... SOUND not theory placement. (Just to note I had previously bought way better IC a few years back, jumping up to Kimber KS1016 and KS1116 series IC which I felt would be good through any future upgrades..) I hope this answers inna’s question a bit. |
Elizabeth, that's certainly tuning, though not what I would call fine tuning. First, you pursue clarity more than anything and this might make it one track tuning. I think, all elements of sonic presentation should be equally addressed, starting with lowest distortion possible and quietest background. Then, you give preference to high frequencies, when in fact one should not differentiate, not to mention that as you know most of the music is in the midrange. Also, the power cords you were experimenting with are entry level and your speaker cables are about the same or even lower. That's not good enough, you don't hear what your speakers are capable of, in certain areas probably not even close. In other words, it's premature for fine tuning, the system is not ready for that yet. |
I guess I do want what I like, not what someone ELSE likes, is the difference. True I do concentrate on a few aspects, making them as perfect as I can.. Many other aspects follow along anyway, particularly a quiet black background. So I really do not need to address them. Some areas I care little about are super dynamics, and bass, also even frequency response, whatever it is is good enough IMO. In fact I despise gut massage bass. and would never have it. Just my choice of speakers, Magnepan clearly no bass driver attack whacks needed in my system.. Actually to the point i have deliberately reduced the bass via power conditioning and wires, from what can be had in a pair of 20.7s... Back down to about what was in the 3.6 I had before. though with a bit more midbass bloom and finess . I can see your point about modifying the system. but realize the mods go all ways..To do what YOU WANT, not what some guru orders you to have.. ’or else’. All these things are subtle, so a non audiophile would never in a million years notice anything different. So for folks who love gut massage bass, from my modifying, I could tell them want to do to add to it! s well as reduce it.Clarity is what I have chased because I love it. I enjoy it. And the enjoyment is the key If I were somehow required to have only what some other person wanted. I probably would has settled for a cheap all in one system and saved $50,000. Some folks chase a standard dream. perfect sound true to the origin. Some understand THEMSELVES better, and chase what they really want. If in some audiophiles eye that makes me a fail, not my problem. |
Elizabeth stated: "One reason it was easy to for me to hear differences.. My drive for clarity brought the sound to the edge of lean over and over.. keeping it warm enough with the clarity uppermost was the challenge. So the sound has been on this edge for years.. Finding ways to make it warm up a bit and still keep the clarity. So I am really used to hearing this and able to make adjustments to bring it back to warm enough to make me happy, while still having amazing clarity." Hello Elizabeth, I think I understand your desire to balance clarity/leanness and warmth in your system's overall sound quality. You enjoy the clarity because it not only enables you to hear fine details in the music but it also allows you to discern whether or not alternate power cords and Ics, Furutech duplexes, AC noise removal gizmos and other smaller changes are actually creating marginal improvements in your system's performance. However, you find yourself constantly guarding against your system's overall sound becoming too lean because you also enjoy a warm quality to be present in your system. This all makes sense to me and seems familiar because I have the same inclinations in my preferred overall system sound. I previously thought I achieved this by pairing a VTL 2.5 preamp with NOS Mullard tubes and various decent quality class AB ss amps (McCormack, Aragon, etc.) to drive my older pair of Magnepan 2.7QR speakers. A few years ago, however, I swapped out my good quality class AB stereo amp for a pair of good quality class D mono blocks. These new amps were a revelation to me in terms of clarity. In retrospect, I thought my former amps provided clarity but these new amps caused me to redefine what system clarity, neutrality, transparency and detail actually was. I thought improved pcs, ics, speaker cables, isolation platforms and dedicated AC lines resulted in better overall performance of my system but now think it may have just been a placebo effect. With the class D monos in my system, all of these types of small changes,comparisons and marginal improvements are clearly audible and obvious. Anyway, back to the subject. Just like you, I also enjoy some warmth in my system sound. But, after some experimentation, I believe I've achieved this warmth in an alternative approach that you may find interesting, counterintuitive and informative. As an experiment, I reconfigured my system with optimum clarity as the goal. I replaced my tube preamp with a good quality very neutral ss unit and setup a hi-res computer audio system as a source with a 2 TB NAS. I ripped my entire cd collection to the NAS's hard drive and also downloaded numerous hi-res 24bit/96Khz FLAC music files recorded direct to digital from Sound Liaison.com in Europe. The results to my system's overall sound was amazing and counterintuitive. The sound was very detailed and transparent with the quality of the recording and mastering clearly varying depending on the cd file played but the hi-res direct to digital 24/96 FLAC files were significantly and consistently superior in recording and mastering quality with resultant improved detail, sound staging and especially improved dynamics that sounded more realistic like the dynamics present on live music. But the truly amazing discovery was that I still perceived the bloom and warmth on both cd and hi-res files. Yes, it varied in intensity by file and music played but my main point is that it wasn't missing and too lean. So, I've come to the conclusion that we should probably add the music played as another method of imparting bloom and warmth to a system's overall sound. Tim |
Now that I have the actual equipment pretty good. I have been starting to think I should do something for the room, at minimum the wall behind the speakers. Being a very large picture window. The first thing I would do is below the window, to the sides of the in wall air conditioner, some wood block diffusers.. I would hang them from the window sill, as they need to be above and enough behind the full length floor heating element to not block the heating unit. Some things cannot be done to the windows.. rules etc. But I think I could make something right at the window dividers to help dispersion. Something vertical with lots of diffraction, at most a few inches wide. (if I worked on it, perhaps actually framing the Windows by maybe two inches? Finally, above?? Something very light, I can make a beam full length carried at the far sides by the bookshelves at the corner sides.. with diffusing elements attached to it. Currently I feel there is too much sort of reverb off the back. So possibly just the things I am considering would be enough, without actually blocking the windows more. Which, like a wrote is not really allowed. (drapes are permitted but I will not close the heavy drapes I now own, for a variety of reasons. mainly pets.) All that is a thought experiment.. Maybe eventually I might do something.. maybe.. I am in no hurry. |
@noble1001 good is always the enemy of the best, as I understand it. despite what or where one feels the need to experiment with what they deem already quite good, or very nice, it just seems purdent to develop a methodology for direction, a base line from which to eveolve, and a destination that can be reached within the confines of the gear on hand. @Elizabeth FYI... perhaps some plants on that window sill could aid in defraction. ficus and spider plants go a long ways to diffusing sound or ameliorating reflections. Elizabeth's path included a speaker upgrade and some efforts comparing outlets and powewr cords. among other things. Inna says begin with the cartridge. fine. start there. it seems prudent to say 'attack that which is blatantly wrong first. thereafter, a consideration is that once any part of the whole is altered, it becomes the fulcrum all else is hinged to. once an accepatable level of higher performance is extracted, it must be revisited. IMHO. EXP has shown me trying out PCs on the source, and powewr train, with power amp (s) being flung into the fire first is my baseline I'll let all else balance on. I would not think to begin shuffeling wires, footers, platforms, etc., unless I felt the outfit was under achieving. IOW, a 5K to 10K retail priced rig is only gonna yield so much regardless the tweaks, though these tweaks may very well satisfy its owner. with a rig running 30K to 40K MSRP it might need some experimentation to bring out its best, and that might mean replacing one or more of the electronics for better synergy, and not merely fiddling with wires and the aforementioned bits. the crucible is always gonna be the ear and mind set of the beholder as to thier perception of what needs to be chased, and for how long. how many here are component junkies? wire mavens? acoustical treatment obsessive? Power conditioner experts? or rife for taming bass? the gear itself is IMHO the main limiting factor. in short, there is no etched in stone tablets plan for attacking and extracting the best from one's system in reality. just get in where you fit in, or not at all if for you, good is good enough. there is no law against it. |
Hello blindjim, You are a wise man, with many pearls of wisdom that suggest a good action plan to follow such as: "It seems prudent to say 'attack that which is blatantly wrong first." Very good advice that I know better as 'low hanging fruit'. I agree that there are no set in stone rules in this hobby, I would advise newcomers to read and learn as much as you can but also listen to as wide a variety of music, formats and systems as you can, You'll not only be gaining valuable personal audio experience but you'll also be discovering what music, formats, components and system qualities you like and dislike. All of this will become important once you assemble or upgrade your own systems. I think your advice to 'follow your ears' is a good way to keep in mind what's most important and increase the chances of building a system that will really be enjoyed. Tim |
blindjim comment about something sitting on window sill.. I have a few silk plants in vases. a mid sized sculpture, and a narrow large one now. But just now thinking maybe more.. I thought why now find a pair of larger rectangular-ish cheap vase and add irregular small blocks of wood, covering it fully to make a pair of free standing diffusion devices! with the silk flowers.The vases would fit within the window rules... |
Yeah, tuning the room with normal or almost normal items can be rewarding. Unfortunately, there is not much I can do, it is a living room. But I am lucky, acoustics is acceptable, and I mostly listen near field so it’s not a major thing. Putting Purist Dominus on the integrated amp and Purist Aquila on regenerator was. When I reversed it it was still good but much worse. Phono stage doesn’t react that much to different power cords, provided they are all very good. Still does , though, but I am temporarily out of cable funds. |
