It really depends on your system. I had a hot harsh analytical system that needed some mellowing out and Cardas Golden Refs were just the ticket . It was magic that's all I can say. I'm sorry they stopped the golden line but I bought some authorized close outs I haven't employed fully yet or at all.
Where do cables upgrades have the most impact?
Assuming all existing cables in a system are atleast mid-grade (not junk), which cables/interconnects should be upgrade first and in what order? Where should one start?
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A new audiophile invited me over to evaluate his rig; I was certainly impressed by the high end names on all his pieces, but what I heard should have sounded much better since he had verifiable gear that I had auditioned in high end salons. I was leaving town and didn't have time to discover what was wrong, but it certainly wasn't the gear he had purchased. The only thing I noticed was that he had too many different brands of interconnects. I'm an electronics technician and I make my own interconnects using a top grade wire that has long been unavailable to the public. That happened after people like me bought the wire in bulk, and sold to those who heard about my interconnects through word of mouth. Now that I can't get the wire, that enterprise is dead. These cable manufacturers have so many different philosophies (ground shield on one end, ground shield on both ends, don't ground shield at all, a floating ground) that when you buy from different manufactures, those different philosophies are bound to collide. Right or wrong, I'm preaching consistency; for your line level interconnects, they should all be from the same place with the same philosophy. |
A few good question. My two cents: Years ago I borrowed some superior speaker cables and were blown away by the impact. They really improved the SQ. A few months ago I purchased a new music server (Innuos) and borrowed a TELLURIUM Q SILVER USB cable with it. I later replaced this cable with a Oyaide at 1/5 at the price and the reduced SQ was unfortunately very clear. So good USB cables are giving better SQ. A few weeks ago I purchased a net Ethernet cable (Supra Cat 8) and I must admit, I did not expect any improved SQ. Surprise, the SQ improved. So I must admit that I have been convinced that better cables do give better SQ. |
I have multiple "High End" cables, and EVERYONE of them have been a disappointment. The LEAST disappointing expensive cables I have are Cardas and since Cardas bought a foundry, it turns out that while they are proprietary, meaning Cardas doesn't use others designs, Cardas is the primary source for an overwhelming number of manufactures. Most companies don't want to do small runs of wire for small manufacturers, Cardas tends to stand alone there. Now, all that said, Dualund makes a wire based upon the old Western Electric wires which they made for AT&T. It absolutely blows away all the boutique brands that I own or have tried. It does need about 8 hours to sound good, and will continue to improve a little bit more over time, but at 8 hours you'll know that you have a winner. You can get SE cables for under $100 on eBay, a character that goes by Grannyring I believe makes them for I believe more, but I make my own. I think Partsconnexion may make them for you as well. Inexpensive Switchcraft RCAs work fine. I used to do minor modifications for people, and still mod for myself and personal friends, though I am running pretty low on Black Gates, my favorite electrolytic capacitors, etc. The point is that I learned about these from a master modifier, Don Sachs. Don makes some of the best sounding tube gear I have ever heard, in fact, he makes the most affordable gear, bang for the buck that I have ever heard. It's what he uses for hook up wire in the audio path. Frankly, even if you pay up for the Grannyring cables, they'll be by far the best sounding cables you have, and by far the best priced cables that can be considered high end. You really can't afford not to try them first, nor can you justify rationally not trying them first. Once you do hear them, remember Don Sachs! He has found some of the least expensive, best sounding components that I have heard. I have used Mundorf Supreme Silver Gold caps, V-Caps Teflon caps, though when I was doing mods the copper foil caps were not out, but Don has found more affordable caps which are awesome, which is partly how he is able to compete with high dollar equipment. For some, his gear may seem unaffordable, but after decades of buying and selling gear, I can tell you that when you consider how much you'll spend over time, and not achieve a system that doesn't impart listening fatigue, his amps and preamps are a true bargain. Anyway, just do yourself a favor and make or buy some Duelund Wire 20awg Copper & Cotton/Oil Hook-up Wire sale price USD $5.77 list price USD $8.25 You Save USD $2.48 (30%)SKU#: DUELUND-81388 For less than $20 including shipping, you can get 2 meters of wire, they also sell Switchcraft connectors probably for $5 +/- a pair, so all in for well under $40 you can own the most neutral cables I have found in 40 years of looking and spending. You could also try to find genuine Western Electric wires, but those who have compared them prefer the Duelund ICs, probably due to purer copper, not to mention that W.E. is being counterfeited as people have found out how good it sounds, so Duelund is by far the way to go! |
I got a Cardas digital cable for CD transport to tube DAC & it’s made quite an improvement. I wasn’t sure if it would have much effect. There is a new level of clarity & accuracy. It does reveal the limitations of some recordings as before there was a veil of ‘bloom’ that had an effect of homogenizing... |
Well...after reading everyone’s responses what I surmise is that opinions differ because everyone’s system is different and cable upgrades impact systems differently. So...the old audio adage of you have to try it and see how it sounds to you in your system in your environment holds true with cables as with almost everything else in audio. |
I switched RCA analog interconnects on my FM tuner and couldn't believe the difference from inexpensive Acoustic Research cables ($15 or so) to some entry level Audioquests ($35 or so). Not night and day, but noticeable. Same when I de-soldered the horrid RCA's on a Project turntable and installed gold plated female RCA jacks and ran some other entry level Audioquests. Not night and day, but noticeable and no hum! I frankly can't hear any difference with digital cable upgrades. |
In my evolving system for the last 10 years I have found the power cord to have easily the greatest impact (this after a conditioner [Shunyata Hydra,Audience RPT6, Audiodharma Powerwing, etc.] or after my current regenerator [PS Audio P10]), followed by interconnects, and lastly speaker cables. Interestingly, I am an Elrod cable fan, and David Elrod flatly states that he finds the speaker cables to have the greatest impact (and he enjoys a lot of feedback from a broad range of customers). I'm guessing it all depends upon systems and tastes? |
rather than buying 4 new power cords at say, $400 each, buy a power conditioner/surge protector that delivers stable voltage and current for around $1000. I'm in Australia and purchased a locally made unit, the Thor PS10 which comes with a first class power board as well that has both coax and CAT cable protection. I went down that road, thinking more of equipment protection due to a previous issue, but I am pleasantly surprised by the sonic improvement to my system in general. |
The ’industry’ exists because someone who BUYS cables wanted something better. One ’better’ cable at a time... It grew. If no audiophile bought them, the industry would not exist. One actual plus for consumers is cables generally do not wear out. I still have cables that I made in the 1980’s. So aside from wanting better... no need to ever buy more. Cable company advertising is only to lure you away from SOME OTHER CABLE COMPANY. No one walking down the street accidentally saw a cable company advert and decided Gee I must NEED those bad, and rushed to buy some. I am probably like a lot of audiophiles in having a pile of cables I do not use anymore. All told between IC, PC, speaker plus video or digital I must own thirty cables not in use, sitting in the closet. (anyone need a Monster S-VHS cable??? I only keep one because.. never know I might suddenly want to use it.. for????) As for "the most".. Priorities. Sometimes you might be best off spending your money on some other audio doodad. But sooner or later you might, maybe, decide to spend that $3000 sitting around on a cable? Who knows.. I did. (and glad I did) |
The one problem with "Shorter is better" is down the road, when you move stuff around, or change racks, or buy a different gizmo. Suddenly your once just right interconnect is discovered to be three inches too short??? (the old box RCA were on the left, now they are far over on the right...) I long ago used to believe in the just long enough IC. And over the years I have gone the total opposite. NOW, all my newer IC are 1.5 meters long. Long enough I am not going to have to worry about 'TOO SHORT $&@!!$(# !" anymore. And those are $1,100 a pop IC. Just a shout out for buying a definitely longer than just enough when you buy big money cabling. For good reason, a little LONGER is, in the long run (pun intended), better. (primarily for your wallet, and I being a spendthrift cheapskate, watch that carefully) On the other hand, if you buy cheap cables, it hardly matters, Or if you change cabling like some folks change clothes. no problem. |
Mishan 12-3-2018 I assume you are referring to line-level analog interconnects. Most cable parameters are directly proportional to length, including resistance, inductance, capacitance, the resistance rise that occurs at high frequencies due to skin effect, the effects of the resistance of the shield or other return conductor on the susceptibility of the connected components to ground loop issues, the effects of dielectric absorption, propagation delay, etc. (In mentioning these parameters, btw, I am putting aside the question of whether or not any of them may be great enough in degree to be audibly significant in a 1 meter analog interconnect). The only parameters that occur to me that are not directly proportional to length are what is called "characteristic impedance," and susceptibility to RFI (radio frequency interference) at some frequencies. Neither of those seems likely to be relevant to the sonic effects of a 1 meter interconnect conducting analog audio signals, however, assuming the system is not in an environment having unusually high levels of RF. Therefore it seems to me to be a good bet that your 1 meter interconnect has more effect on the sound than your shorter interconnect, and that increased effect is simply more complementary to the sonics of the rest of your system and/or your subjective preferences. Putting it all another way, the "shorter is better" philosophy assumes that the goal is for the cable to have as little effect on the sound as possible, at least in the case of a line-level analog interconnect. It could very well be a different story in the case of a digital interconnect cable, though, as explained in this paper. And perhaps also in the case of a phono cable, depending on the particular cartridge and phono stage, due to a number of effects that can result from the interaction of the capacitance of the cable and the inductance of the cartridge. Regards, -- Al |
Agree with above about speaker cables, different speakers have their own kind of sounds that tend to work better with particular types of cables. Once you’ve optimised the speaker end of things then you can isolate and play with different parts of the chain. At the end of the day wrong speaker setup will give you wrong sound. |
Curious if those saying the power cable had the most impact are plugging into a power conditioner or a wall outlet? For me personally I do not filter my power. I never heard a serial filter or / power conditioner to my liking but I have not heard them all. What I have heard sounded to cleaned up for me. Borring is what came to mind. I do have a separate HiFi power group. Does this lead to a better experience ? I don't know. Theoretical it could. A power strip in a wall-outlet when you have to connect more than one or two devices is a logical option. My power section is build around a good 8 piece power strip that goes in the separate group wall outlet. From there I have plugged in my devices in order Power AMP and the rest. When I use a non seperate wall outlet I think I cannot pick it out in a AB or blind test. In a powerstrip digital devices are adviced to be last in line. I am not able to hear differences in other combinations. I just followed this advice because it cost me nothing and the plausible explanation came from an experienced person. I have power cables that are 6 feet minumim lenght. Read many sience, theories and opinions about the minimal power cable lenght. If the theorie and science is wrong than we waist a lot of material. If it is correct then I have the right cable lenght and created piece of mind in this section. Still changing the power-cord on an Pre-Amp / AMP or Digital device like a Dac is a good place to start. Start with the basics. Dont over do it and go from there. |
The shorter the better? When talking of cables, this statement is often presented as an axiom, although after several experiments it is not even a theorem for me. Using the example of intercon cables (the same manufacturer and the same model), I can say that in most cases a cable 1 or 0.8 meters long sounded better than half a meter long. I suspect that the matter is in some "wave" nuances, but I would be happy to know the expert's opinion. |
If you split them up in digital, analog, power and speaker cables them I would start with the power section. This can trigger a debate with no right or wrong and only standpoints. Try it yourself. Feed at least your amp and sources with some decent powercords. I did not need to spend more than 350$ on a single power cable or block. In general a factor 10 on the source is for me a non scientific rule. Common sense should do the math. Probably cheaper cables where out there that gave me the same results but I can’t try them all. In my opinion and based on my own test cases with cables diminishing returns will rise early. A test protocol for power-cords that I use. Stick with two or three peaces of music. Listen for bloating , heavy bass , cool and warm tones (timbre). Do some background reading on putting the devices in the correct fase. I can’t detect in correct fase as some others do but it is easy to do. Peace of mind will also help. Try shielded and non shielded cables. Non shielded gave me less bloating or heavy bass and more alive music. There is no conclusion. Choose every time the sound you like the most. Work your way up the chain and repeat the proces. You have to match and balance out the system. Work with what you have and try to get the most out of that fist. Try pro cables to. In most cases cheaper than consumer market cables and the the results can surprise you. I have a mix of factory made (pro and consumer) and DIY cables. The main reasons for that is that I can test and swap cables without a big budget. You don’t need over expensive cables to get good sound. When I get bored listening to the same sound and want something else I have some cable options in my sleeve. Most of the time a come back to my reference point. I again know the contrast and enjoy what I have. I do reference with friends to check how my DIY cables sound. There is nothing telling me that DIY in the analogue section is worse than factory cables. Digital I leave to the pros. Meicord UTP is I non sponsored tip. I run it in all of my digital chain. For my digitaal section they are the end of the line UTP Cables. No Guaranty that my experience will be yours. |
Personally, I've found that the ICs have been the most profound improvement in my system. I think the speaker cables would be right there also, but, most systems have SCs that are similarly priced as the PCs and ICs. To get an equivalent jump in performance, the generally much longer SCs will need about a double the price difference to achieve the same gains. The Cerious Technology Matrix SCs would be that type of jump for me. The Teo ICs used as doubles to each component from source to preamp is an extremely big improvement. I've kept the same sets of PCs for many years while I've changed the other two a few times. Big jump in performance of the ICs when I went to all silver cables from either Darwin or Amadi after having several Morrows, DNM, Audioquest, The change to Teo GCs brought a more organic sound that was also a real game changer in my system. Using a pair of Core Power Equi=Core 150's as my PCs in both the TRL DUDE preamp and as the power coming from all my sources was a very good improvement in dynamics, clarity and lower noise floor. Other PCs have been good such as the Less Loss Original and Wywires Juice II's. I probably will have to jump up in price to significantly beat the PCs I currently have in the system. My speakers are VMPS RM40 BCSE MLS with most of the upgrades or the Vapor Audio Joule Black. The amps are Nuforce Ref 9 V3 Se monos with the level 3 TDSS upgrades. The VMPS are very detailed and transparent where the Vapor's are just a little more sophisticated and clean sounding. The amps are just freakin' awesome with all the speakers I've tried them with. |
Yes, there is a consensus - in most cases speaker cables are least important. And that's exactly what I would start with. After that or at the same time with that - power cord on the power amp. This would complete power amp/speaker cables/speakers unit. If you use power conditioner/regenerator for the amps I would first put power cord there. In my limited experience the biggest impacts were the RCA interconnects from the source, either analog or digital, and power cord from the wall. My Nottingham tonearm wiring goes uninterrupted from cartridge to RCAs and I have no plans to have it rewired, but it can be done. |
@teo_audio To try to at least build or modify a single piece of gear. Or that built piece of gear, being modified at least once. In some way. To get an understanding of the complexity of the signal in the boxes. This might be a way. Point noted. I will move in that direction, holistically. Both of your posts have been helpful. Thank you! |
Why does a manufacturer make and sell multi-thousand dollar amps with exotic power supplies but with power cables that are sub par. I just have a hard time getting past that idea. Ponder why component manufacturers showcase their products in partnership with any number of aftermarket cable companies? BTW, you are way past the proverbial 'newbie' status. : ) |
If you include the tonearm, I would say its internal wire. Especially if you eliminate all the junctures, solder joints, and connectors, creating an uninterrupted run of wire from the cartridge pins to the RCA or XLR plugs. The reason being the output voltage of cartridges is the lowest in the entire system chain. |
As a newbie with very nice cables (but with OEM power cables) there is something I do not understand about power cables. Why does a manufacturer make and sell multi-thousand dollar amps with exotic power supplies but with power cables that are sub par. I just have a hard time getting past that idea. I've got a Proceed HPA2 amp and when I read about all that goes into its power supply like two transformers (1 per channel) and know what these sold for new I have a hard time understanding why they would send it to you with a power cable that some here suggest would be de facto inferior. I'm not suggesting that the right power cables can't make a huge difference, but if they can, why don't they come with the unit? |
Factors that tend to increase the criticality of speaker cables: -- Low speaker impedance. -- Long cable length. Factors that tend to increase the criticality of line-level analog interconnect cables: -- High output impedance of the component driving the cable. -- Use of unbalanced interconnections. -- Long cable length. Factors that tend to increase the criticality of power cords: -- The component being powered has an unregulated power supply and draws large amounts of current that fluctuate widely. Namely most power amplifiers and integrated amplifiers. -- The component being powered tends to generate significant amounts of electrical noise, that may couple via the power cord to other components. Namely power amplifiers, integrated amplifiers, and digital sources. -- AC line voltage at the particular location that is lower than nominal. ("Nominal" being 120 volts in the USA). Phono cables and digital interconnect cables involve complex issues that I won’t address in this post, but their criticality will vary widely depending on the specific equipment that is involved. Regards, -- Al |
